From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 12:40:44 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O5efXr001460 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:40:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O5eZY14055 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:40:35 +0700 Message-ID: <3F712DC5.5060607@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:38:13 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Testing relaxng-user X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:40:47 -0000 This is a test. James From ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk Wed Sep 24 13:48:32 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O6mVjv010515 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:48:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O6mfmr006265 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O6mfbj006262; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) Message-ID: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [relaxng-user] A question on content models X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:48:33 -0000 X-Original-Date: 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:48:33 -0000 ::Migrated from xml-dev:: I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual elements. The master file s the individual ones. The master file has declarations like Individual files usually say something like I use this as a kind of type system. Individual content models may contain Question 1: is this a good way of doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element the common declarations (a group of attributes in this case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, XSD does (thought inheritance). Ari. From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 14:03:43 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O73eOx012919 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:03:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O73XY14549 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:03:33 +0700 Message-ID: <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:01:10 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:03:43 -0000 K. Ari Krupnikov wrote: > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > elements. The master file s the individual ones. > > The master file has declarations like > > > > > > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > > > I use this as a kind of type system. Individual content models may > contain > > > > > > > Question 1: is this a good way of > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? It seems good to me. The only disadvantage is that it may make your schemas harder to understand. You have to weigh that against the better modularity it gives you. > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > XSD does (thought inheritance). Even with inheritance in XSD, you have do do something on every element (namely declare it to have an appropriate type). You can do this in RELAX NG by - having a definition for each type - having each type reference the definition of its base type - having the pattern for each element of that type reference the definition for its type (the ref to this definition is serving the same role as the type attribute in XSD) James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 14:20:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7Kaad015132 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O7KTY14622 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:29 +0700 Message-ID: <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:18:06 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:20:39 -0000 > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > elements. The master file s the individual ones. It's also worth mentioning that you can use a similar technique with attributes. > The master file has declarations like > > > > For sets of attributes, use instead of > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". James From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 14:33:19 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7XI3K016881 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:33:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O7XSmr006430 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O7XRkM006427; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> Message-ID: <86fzimsks8.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:19 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 00:33:27 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:19 -0000 James Clark writes: > > Question 1: is this a good way of > > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? > > It seems good to me. The only disadvantage is that it may make your > schemas harder to understand. You have to weigh that against the > better modularity it gives you. What other (easier to understand, less modular) alternative are you referring to? As far as ease of understanding goes, I tangle the individual RNGs from ``semi-literate'' markup, where the individual elements are documented. It seemed easier to create one RNG per literate document than put them all in one RNG. > > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > > XSD does (thought inheritance). > > Even with inheritance in XSD, you have do do something on every > element (namely declare it to have an appropriate type). You can do > this in RELAX NG by > > - having a definition for each type > > - having each type reference the definition of its base type > > - having the pattern for each element of that type reference the > definition for its type (the ref to this definition is serving the > same role as the type attribute in XSD) How would you then say "any element of this type allowed here"? Ari. From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 14:46:53 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7kreV018629 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:46:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O7l2mr006466 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O7l25a006463; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> Message-ID: <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:46:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:46:54 -0000 James, Thanks for setting up this list, and for answering so promptly. James Clark writes: > > The master file has declarations like > > > > > > > > For sets of attributes, use instead of > > > > This may become a FAQ. What's the difference between empty and notAllowed in this context? Are they ever interchangeable? Would it mean the same if I said this? > > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > > > > > > > Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". For attributes or in general? Again, this may be a FAQ, what's the difference between "choice" and "interleave" in this context? Is the same as Ari. From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Sep 24 15:13:20 2003 Received: from goro.asahi-net.or.jp (goro.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.40]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8DIuh022009 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:13:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from j.asahi-net.or.jp (karl.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.33.31]) by goro.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with SMTP id h8O8DCM88716 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:13:12 +0900 (JST) Received: by j.asahi-net.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 24 Sep 2003 17:13:12 +0900 From: EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Lines: 38 Message-Id: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] common-atts X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 17:13:11 +0900 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0000 > This may become a FAQ. What's the difference between empty and > notAllowed in this context? Are they ever interchangeable? Would it > mean the same if I said this? > > > No, and are not interchangeable. If you write , you allow . If your write , you allow nothing. In the case of your example, use of for class.filter means that allows . Some analogy might help to understand and . The former is similar to 0 and the latter is similar to 1. is simliar to "+". E.g., 0 + x = x p1 = p1 is similar to "*". E.g.., 0 * x = 0 p1 = 1 * x = x p1 = p1 Just like 1+x cannot be simplified, p1 cannot be simplified. Hope this helps. Cheers, Makoto From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 15:29:59 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8Twbk023842 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:29:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O8U8mr006690 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O8U8ED006687; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] common-atts References: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Message-ID: <867k3ysi5r.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0000 EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) writes: > If you write , you allow > . If your write , > you allow nothing. Thank you. I understand it now. What I wanted was an abstract declaration for a type that elements may declare themselves to belong to, so works. Is this the intended use of notAllowed? Ari. From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 15:45:04 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8j1pE025658 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:45:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O8isY15037 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:44:54 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:42:31 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:45:04 -0000 Murata-san has mostly covered this already but since I had my reply mostly written already I'll send it as well. > What's the difference between empty and > notAllowed in this context? The following analogy may help (or it may just confuse things!): if you think of choice as addition and interleave as multiplication, then notAllowed is like 0 and empty is like 1. Whether to use notAllowed or empty in this context depends on whether you are going to use combine="choice" or combine="interleave". If combine="choice" then use notAllowed; if combine="interleave" then use empty. That's because X | notAllowed is equivalent to X for any pattern X; similarly, X & empty is equivalent to X for any pattern X. >>>Individual files usually say something like >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". > > > For attributes or in general? Again, this may be a FAQ, what's the > difference between "choice" and "interleave" in this context? Is > > > > > > the same as > > > > > > No. The combine attribute just says what happens when you have two definitions with the same name. My fingers are getting tired, so I'm going to use the compact syntax here: a &= X a &= Y is the same as a = X & Y Also a = attribute foo { ... } & attribute bar { ... } is equivalent to a = attribute foo { ... }, attribute bar { ... } (because attribute order is not significant). So if you are defining sets of attributes you want to use empty and &=. You would use notAllowed and |= for attributes only if you had a case where you wanted the schema allowed one of a class of attributes (which is rare). James From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 16:25:59 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O9Pw2M031402 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:25:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O9Q8mr006976 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O9Q7jC006973; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> Message-ID: <863cemsfkg.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:59 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 02:26:07 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:59 -0000 James Clark writes: > Murata-san has mostly covered this already but since I had my reply > mostly written already I'll send it as well. > > > What's the difference between empty and > > notAllowed in this context? > > The following analogy may help (or it may just confuse things!): if > you think of choice as addition and interleave as multiplication, then > notAllowed is like 0 and empty is like 1. > > Whether to use notAllowed or empty in this context depends on whether > you are going to use combine="choice" or combine="interleave". If > combine="choice" then use notAllowed; if combine="interleave" then use > empty. That's because X | notAllowed is equivalent to X for any > pattern X; similarly, X & empty is equivalent to X for any pattern X. OK, it all makes sense now. Conjunction for universal qualifiers, disjunction for existential? Ari. From chengchangwu@yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 23:42:27 2003 Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8OGgRT1097366 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:42:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from h42-210-66-25.seed.net.tw (HELO magic) (chengchangwu@210.66.25.42 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2003 16:42:21 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> From: "Cheng-Chang Wu" To: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:39:33 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:42:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc = complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? Cheng-Chang Wu ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm using xsltproc to split = spectest.xml in the=20 test suite. Xsltproc complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find = this=20 file?
 
Cheng-Chang = Wu
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0-- From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Sep 25 00:05:32 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OH5VvD001428 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:05:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1657225072E; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:01:44 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:02:38 +0100 To: "Cheng-Chang Wu" , From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl In-Reply-To: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:05:33 -0000 At 00:39 25/09/2003 +0800, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: >I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc >complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? Suggest trying on the xsltproc mailing list? Or one of Daniel's source files? HTH DaveP From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Sep 25 00:05:34 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OH5Xhf001421 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:05:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1644F25F49B for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:59:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924175952.00b17598@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:00:25 +0100 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] .... And welcome X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:05:34 -0000 Test message. regards DaveP From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Thu Sep 25 01:49:42 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OIngin018616 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:49:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OInp9c010139 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:49:51 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OInKYm026472 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:49:36 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:45:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:45:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:49:42 -0000 I just got a Sharp's Linux-based PDA, the Zaurus SL5500, and thought it would be fun to get jing running on it. I got a NoClassDefFoundError because it couldn't find org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler. I believe that when I run this on a Windows machine, jing is finding these classes right in the 1.4 jvm, but the Zaurus jvm (the Jeode "evm") doesn't have that. I addedxml-apis.jar from xerces, which has the org.xml.sax classes and isn't very big, but it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? thanks, Bob From simonstl@simonstl.com Thu Sep 25 02:19:25 2003 Received: from serrano.hesketh.net (mail.hesketh.net [216.27.21.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJJPgD023514 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:19:25 +0700 (ICT) X-Received-From: simonstl@simonstl.com X-Delivered-To: X-Originating-IP: [24.58.125.32] Received: from 192.168.124.11 (syr-24-58-125-32.twcny.rr.com [24.58.125.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by serrano.hesketh.net (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OJJ79e024774 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:19:09 -0400 X-Spam-Filter: check_local@serrano.hesketh.net by digitalanswers.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:19:13 -0400 From: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 2.0 (Blindsider) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:19:26 -0000 bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com (DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)) writes: >I just got a Sharp's Linux-based PDA, the Zaurus SL5500, and thought >it would be fun to get jing running on it. I got a >NoClassDefFoundError because it couldn't find >org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler. I believe that when I run this on a Windows >machine, jing is finding these classes right in the 1.4 jvm, but the >Zaurus jvm (the Jeode "evm") doesn't have that. I addedxml-apis.jar >from xerces, which has the org.xml.sax classes and isn't very big, but >it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to >avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to >take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for >a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? You might try: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29449 Which comes right off of: http://www.saxproject.org/ I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Sep 25 02:58:50 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJwkcC029982 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:58:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OJuUs0011718 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:30 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8OJuRhn011717 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:27 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? In-Reply-To: To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:27 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:58:51 -0000 > >it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to > >avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to > >take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for > >a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? > > You might try: > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29449 > > Which comes right off of: > http://www.saxproject.org/ > > I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. It does not have Xerces dependencies but it does include a SAX2 parser. A parser is still required; either XP by James Clark (and org.xml.sax.parser property defined appropriately) should work, or Aelfred2 from gnu jaxp. Both are small. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk Thu Sep 25 04:58:25 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OLwO8Z049189 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:58:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJpQmr009188 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8OJoxGY009183; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <86y8wft83x.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <20030924115316.GC12899@mercury.ccil.org> From: ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <20030924115316.GC12899@mercury.ccil.org> Message-ID: <86d6dqq82k.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [xml-dev] A RELAX NG question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 12:50:59 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:00 -0000 This thread has moved to the new relaxng-user list. John Cowan writes: > K. Ari Krupnikov scripsit: > > > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > > elements. The master file s the individual ones. > > Do you have them separated out merely for ease of maintenance, or do > you anticipate using different contents for the individual files? Yes. I tangle my RNGs from other markup, if you are curious, take a look at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/stng/STnG/literate/ > > Question 1: is this a good way of > > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? > > The obvious alternative would be to avoid the machinery of "define" > combination, and simply use externalRef to bring in the element patterns > directly. This is somewhat more streamlined. Won't work, I don't think. Any of the elements' CM may need to say "any element of class foo here," without enumerating members of the foo class by name or filename -- it can't because it doesn't know about them. It knows about classes because they are enumerated in the master file. > > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > > XSD does (thought inheritance). > > I don't see that it's any better or worse to have to ref common > subpatterns than to have to specify a common base type. I want to specify both in one declaration. It's not an accidental coincidence that all members of a class have common attributes, it's part of the meaning of being a part of that class. I was wondering if there was a way to capture that in RELAX NG. Ari. From veillard@redhat.com Thu Sep 25 05:11:19 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OMBJZL051291 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:11:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8OMBGs02246; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:16 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl Message-ID: <20030924181116.F21529@redhat.com> References: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk>; from dpawson@nildram.co.uk on Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:02:38PM +0100 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:11:20 -0000 On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:02:38PM +0100, Dave Pawson wrote: > At 00:39 25/09/2003 +0800, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > >I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc > >complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? > > Suggest trying on the xsltproc mailing list? > Or one of Daniel's source files? Yeah, I'm not sure either how it related to Relax-NG (formatting the XML spec file ?). I don't have prep.xsl anywhere, I doublt it's directly related to xsltproc. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Sep 25 02:41:11 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJfBW0027244 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:41:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19753; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? Message-ID: <20030924193943.GB28066@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:59:30 +0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:41:12 -0000 Simon St.Laurent scripsit: > Which comes right off of: > http://www.saxproject.org/ > > I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. Well, that provides the SAX interfaces and helper classes, which are not present in JVMs before 1.4. But then you need an actual *parser*, of which the smallest I know of is Aelfred2. -- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Sep 25 06:09:58 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8ON9s7j061281 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:09:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8ON7bs0018304 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8ON7bUE018303 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309242307.h8ON7bUE018303@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] API? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:09:58 -0000 Hi, I am trying to use relaxng to analyze markup's syntax. Is there a public way to traverse a loaded grammar? I've looked at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit. Is it where I should start from? David From jjc@jclark.com Thu Sep 25 07:18:56 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8P0IrV5071615 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:18:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8P0IlY19925 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:18:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7233B0.5030705@jclark.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:15:44 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? References: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:18:56 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > It does not have Xerces dependencies but it does include a SAX2 parser. A parser > is still required; either XP by James Clark (and org.xml.sax.parser property > defined appropriately) should work, or Aelfred2 from gnu jaxp. Both are > small. XP isn't maintained and doesn't support SAX2. IIRC, the GNU jaxp parser does not fully implement SAX2 (in that it doesn't allow ContentHandler to be set during a parse), which makes it not work with Jing. I would recommend Crimson (available from Apache) as a small and conformant parser that works with Jing. James From catcode@catcode.com Sat Sep 27 05:40:00 2003 Received: from tengu.host4u.net (tengu.host4u.net [209.150.128.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8QMe0CP097545 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 05:40:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (catcode@localhost) by tengu.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8QMchp09433 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:38:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:38:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. David Eisenberg" X-X-Sender: catcode@tengu.host4u.net To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:40:01 -0000 I'm teaching a beginning XML course at a local community college, and long since decided to teach Relax NG instead of XML Schema (I tell the students, "I don't want your heads to explode.") I was teaching RNG before the compact syntax came on the scene, but this semester some students have expressed interest in it. Over the past two days, I wrote a second version of the lecture notes (at http://catcode.com/cit041x) to cover compact syntax. [And this is my first use of it as well.] My questions: 1) Should instructors emphasize the XML syntax or the compact syntax? The XML syntax _is_ the official version, and it's the one used by W3C for SVG, but compact is, well, more compact. 2) If you look at the lecture notes, you'll see that my indenting style is remarkably schizoid - I was developing my own personal style as I wrote the notes. Are there any "Official Relax NG Compact Syntax Indenting Guidelines"? -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ From jjc@jclark.com Sat Sep 27 14:20:24 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8R7KCmH060647 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:20:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8R7JvY03655 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:19:58 +0700 Message-ID: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:17:29 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:20:25 -0000 J. David Eisenberg wrote: > 1) Should instructors emphasize the XML syntax or the compact syntax? The > XML syntax _is_ the official version, and it's the one used by W3C for > SVG, but compact is, well, more compact. I don't really have an answer. The compact syntax is an OASIS committee spec, so it's official too, although it hasn't started on any ISO standardization path (yet). If you do emphasize the compact syntax, I think it's important to mention the XML syntax and teach how to get the XML syntax from the compact syntax. Apart from that, I would suggest emphasizing whichever you think your audience will understand more easily. > 2) If you look at the lecture notes, you'll see that my indenting style is > remarkably schizoid - I was developing my own personal style as I wrote > the notes. Are there any "Official Relax NG Compact Syntax > Indenting Guidelines"? No. You can use trang to indent your RNC by using RNC input and RNC output. I put a fair amount of effort into making trang's RNC output indent in a reasonable and systematic way. The overall objective is to produce a readable schema. Indentation is just one factor that contributes to readability. I find compact schemas easier to read when they are relatively flat. I prefer schemas that follow the following rules: - always have an implicit top-level grammar - no nested element patterns; move nested element patterns into separate definitions - any closing ( on the same line as the opening ); if this makes the line too long or the expression hard to read, then factor part of the expression out into another definition - closing } either on the same line as the opening { or on a line by itself aligned with the start of the keyword before the opening { James From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sun Sep 28 11:37:13 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8S4bDuL003525 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:37:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A3TIr-0007Dc-00; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:37:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:37:01 -0400 To: James Clark Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG Message-ID: <20030928043701.GB27476@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:53:59 +0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 04:37:15 -0000 James Clark scripsit: > - always have an implicit top-level grammar I agree, except for pedagogical examples. > - no nested element patterns; move nested element patterns into separate > definitions I don't mind nested elements if they are "attribute-like"; simple content models, not significantly reused. > - any closing ( on the same line as the opening ); if this makes the > line too long or the expression hard to read, then factor part of the > expression out into another definition I don't care much about this point. > - closing } either on the same line as the opening { or on a line by > itself aligned with the start of the keyword before the opening { The "One True Brace Style" set by the K&R C book. -- Go, and never darken my towels again! John Cowan --Rufus T. Firefly www.ccil.org/~cowan From jjc@jclark.com Sun Sep 28 14:39:04 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8S7d1Fk023596 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:39:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8S7clL22630 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:38:49 +0700 Message-ID: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:36:02 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl References: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> In-Reply-To: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:39:04 -0000 Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc > complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? I think there's a copy in: http://www.thaiopensource.com/download/gcj/jing-20030619.tar.gz If you look in the test directory, the Makefile uses xsltproc to split up spectest.xml. I'll fix the test suite in the next release to include this. James From chengchangwu@yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 03:34:18 2003 Received: from web41308.mail.yahoo.com (web41308.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.57]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8TKYIgg013703 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:34:18 +0700 (ICT) Message-ID: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [210.66.25.42] by web41308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:11 PDT Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:34:19 -0000 I've found prep.xsl, thanks for the help. My program can still not handle all of the relaxng constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I am using in my project. I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says one can replace the expandable ref element with its definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't grasp this well. Ex. Isn't this a correct relaxng schema? I don't know Java, so I can't find how jing has done it. How can this be simplified with the simplification rules in section 4 of the specification? I havn't done the simplification as the specification says, will this bring me some trouble in the future? Thanks for your great job on RelaxNG, it's much better than any other schema language which I can't comprehend. Cheng-Chang From veillard@redhat.com Tue Sep 30 04:09:22 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8TL9Mch019506 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 04:09:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8TL9Ib22633; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl Message-ID: <20030929170918.T21529@redhat.com> References: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com>; from chengchangwu@yahoo.com on Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:09:22 -0000 On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > I've found prep.xsl, thanks for the help. > > My program can still not handle all of the relaxng > constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I > am using in my project. > > I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref > element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says > one can replace the expandable ref element with its > definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't > grasp this well. Ex. > > > > > > > Isn't this a correct relaxng schema? I don't know The simplest way I could understand the spec was in term of input. Basically the loop is invalid because it consume no input. You can go from the top definition of the test define to the recursive reference without any change in the input. On the other hand is okay because to go from the definition to the reference you had to consume the "bar" element input. Still the best way is to follow the spec description of the semantic but sometimes taking a different approach can help seeing the concept behind the formalism. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Tue Sep 30 08:59:59 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8U1xvAc059938 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8U1xlL02862; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F78E2EB.5010200@jclark.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:56:59 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl References: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:00:01 -0000 Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > My program can still not handle all of the relaxng > constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I > am using in my project. > > I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref > element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says > one can replace the expandable ref element with its > definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't > grasp this well. Typically, an implementation represents each type of pattern by an object. The schema is thus initially a tree of objects. At a convenient point, the implementation typically resolves references: it checks that there's a define for each ref and makes each ref pattern point directly to that define, and each grammar becomes just a reference to its start pattern. At this stage, you have a directed graph of objects. This graph may have cycles (where every cycle passes through a ref pattern). What your implementation has to do is check that every cycle passes through an element pattern. You can do this by having a recursive function with a single depth parameter that walks the graph, recording at each ref node the depth at which it last visited the node, and incrementing the depth when it passes through an element node. See com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.RefPattern.checkRecursion() in Jing. James From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:05:53 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UD5rob043912 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:05:53 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064927148!1162261 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 20876 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 13990 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14529 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:05:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:58 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA03980; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:58 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:05:54 -0000 I had a DTD that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced x = element x { attlist.x, any } attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x any = (element * { attribute * { text }*, any } | text)* which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying with any instance document, say to be definite, I get $ jing id.rng id.xml z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. Am I confused or is Jing? Thanks for any advice, David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 20:25:02 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UDOxRv046749 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:25:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494F0192F77 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:25:04 -0000 Hi David, On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:01, David Carlisle wrote: > I had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > I had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xml > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xmlI had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xml > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > > Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to > validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. > > Am I confused or is Jing? I think you are ;-) ... I have tried to explain that in my book: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/RngNamespaces.html (search for "A couple of traps to avoid"). Basically, what's happening here is the the DTD compatibility feature does emulate even its restrictions :-) ... Hope this helps. Eric -- Freelance consulting and training. http://dyomedea.com/english/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Tom.Gaven@exostar.com Tue Sep 30 20:28:32 2003 Received: from NETMAIL01.exostar.com ([208.47.83.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UDSWXS047231 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:28:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: by NETMAIL02.exostar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:26 -0400 Message-ID: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> From: Tom Gaven To: "'David Carlisle'" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:28:33 -0000 David, 1 x = element x { attlist.x, any } 2 attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? 3 start = x 4 any = 5 (element * { 6 attribute * { text }*, 7 any 8 } 9 | text)* If you desire 'any attribute on element x', then you should probably remove line 2, and delete 'attlist.x,' from line 1. This should get rid of your Jing error, and grant your desire. You may be able to get: validate id attribute against ID rule and grant all other attributes but you'd probably have to use some choice and except..not syntax... that is outside my reach at the moment... :) also, I think trang's conversion of was a bit too loose in that it allowed any attribute as well as any element. Tom -----Original Message----- From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:02 AM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types I had a DTD that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced x = element x { attlist.x, any } attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x any = (element * { attribute * { text }*, any } | text)* which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying with any instance document, say to be definite, I get $ jing id.rng id.xml z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. Am I confused or is Jing? Thanks for any advice, David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:36:44 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UDah3B048447 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:44 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-8.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064928996!1173507 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 21357 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-8.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 27745 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15344; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:36:25 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:02 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301333.OAA04167@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA04167; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:02 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: vdv@dyomedea.com In-reply-to: <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> (message from Eric van der Vlist on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:36:46 -0000 > > Am I confused or is Jing? > I think you are ;-) ... Good. That's easier for me to fix! > all the other definitions of an attribute "id" hosted by an element > "book" must have the same type "ID". Ah. thanks, Hmm I think I'll just declare my id attribute as text or xsd:NCName or something and give up on this xsd:ID business. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:52:09 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UDq9kI051034 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:52:09 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-26.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064929922!1156095 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 25952 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:52:02 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-26.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:52:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31015 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:52:01 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:52:01 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15694; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:51:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA04245; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: Tom.Gaven@exostar.com In-reply-to: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> (message from Tom Gaven on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0400) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:52:11 -0000 > If you desire 'any attribute on element x', then you should probably > remove line 2, and delete 'attlist.x,' from line 1. No I wanted control over the attributes, but to allow any element. Which was the intent of the original DTD However Eric has pointed out that while the _intent_ of that DTD was to allow anything as a child of that DTD (essentially it's an "annotation from some foreign vocabulary wrapper) actually there would be a restriction that any element called x that is included as a result of that ANY had better have an id attribute of type ID, and the relax ng version picks up that constraint as unlike xsd you can't apparently skip a chunk of well formed xml so you have to actually declare the grammar of the contained elments and you end you with text conflicting with xsd:ID. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Sep 30 21:26:49 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEQkNK056927 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:26:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UENqs0051505 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UENqpB051504 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:26:51 -0000 Hi, I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. Where can I look at a schema with it? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 21:38:08 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEc5K0058826 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:38:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C850B19329B for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:38:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:38:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:38:08 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > Where can I look at a schema with it? Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less examples in this domain. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html Eric -- Don't you think all these XML schema languages should work together? http://dsdl.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From veillard@redhat.com Tue Sep 30 21:41:30 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEfUa4059341 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:41:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8UEeLa01736; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:21 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:21 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? Message-ID: <20030930104021.Q21529@redhat.com> References: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net>; from dvd@davidashen.net on Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:52PM +0500 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:41:30 -0000 On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:52PM +0500, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > Where can I look at a schema with it? Isn't the example from chapter 8 of the tutorial "real-life" enough ? http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/tutorial-20011203.html#IDAN1YR Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Sep 30 21:53:56 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UErqDB061305 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:53:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UEoxs0051669 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UEoxR3051668 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? In-Reply-To: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:53:57 -0000 > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > > Where can I look at a schema with it? > > Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > examples in this domain. > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. I am trying to solve a problem for which every construct must be converted into a set of productions and am having difficulty translating interleave into a set of productions in general case. It is possible and easy in general, but complicates my particular algorithm. I am considering dropping interleave and trying to find out what kind of grammars will be beyond the scope. I haven't yet seen one. David From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Sep 30 21:56:11 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEuAW4061692 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:56:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEuKFG014111 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:21 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEu4vT012028 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:05 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:03 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:56:11 -0000 >> I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. >> Where can I look at a schema with it? >Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good >examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take >advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less >examples in this domain. I see it the other way around: to me, ordering matters more in document-oriented applications, but less in data-oriented applications. If a relational table has columns for firstName, lastName, empNum, homePhone, officePhone, hireDate, etc., the ordering of their XML equivalents inside of an element that represents a row of that table really doesn't matter to me, and probably doesn't to an importing application. I'll bet there are plenty of examples there. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 22:02:07 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF1uZE062928 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:02:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF4019374E for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:01:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064934110.5191.86.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:01:50 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:02:10 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:50, David Tolpin wrote: > > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > > > Where can I look at a schema with it? > > > > Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > > examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > > advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > > examples in this domain. > > > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html > > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; There is also an hidden use of "interleave" in each "mixed" template since "mixed" is a shortcut for "interleave" with a "text" pattern. > and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. How can you do this (I mean combining without order) without interleave? > I am trying to solve a problem for which every construct must be converted into a > set of productions and am having difficulty translating interleave into a set > of productions in general case. It is possible and easy in general, but complicates > my particular algorithm. Interleave does complicate the algorithm, that's why it has been kept away from other schema languages, but it gives a flexibility to users which is unique amongst schema languages... > I am considering dropping interleave and trying to find out what kind of grammars > will be beyond the scope. I haven't yet seen one. Again, any mixed content model is in this scope. Eric -- See you in Philadelphia for XML 2003. http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 22:07:55 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF7svT063908 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UF7rxK002453 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM1001NJ8P497@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM100ERH8P3ZS@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:07:52 -0700 From: Kohsuke KAWAGUCHI In-reply-to: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20030930080749.1736.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:07:56 -0000 > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. HTML
is another example. You can have things like ,,<script>,<link>,... in any order, but you can have at most one <title>. Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 22:09:39 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF9b26064311 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:09:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D3A1938D4 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <FEF4858E8AB32D4EAC2CF2A7D85386EBE52C84@lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com> References: <FEF4858E8AB32D4EAC2CF2A7D85386EBE52C84@lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064934575.5191.95.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:35 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:09:39 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:56, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > >> I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of > 'interleave'. > >> Where can I look at a schema with it? > > >Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > >examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > >advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > >examples in this domain. > > I see it the other way around: to me, ordering matters more in > document-oriented applications, but less in data-oriented applications. If a > relational table has columns for firstName, lastName, empNum, homePhone, > officePhone, hireDate, etc., the ordering of their XML equivalents inside of > an element that represents a row of that table really doesn't matter to me, > and probably doesn't to an importing application. I'll bet there are plenty > of examples there. I thin that there is a misunderstanding here and that many users think that "unordered" models are models where the order doesn't matter which is very reductive. What we often call unordered models are models where the schema doesn't enforce the order and that doesn't mean that the order shouldn't be considered significant for the application, on the contrary, the fact that two elements may appear in any order may bring additional information. For instance, if I write: person = element last-name{text}, element first-name{text} The fact that I enforce a specific order means that I don't know if the person prefers to get his/her first name before his/her last name, while if I write: person = element last-name{text}& element first-name{text}, I can write in my instance document either <last-name>DuCharme</last-name><first-name>Bob</first-name> or <first-name>Bob</first-name><last-name>DuCharme</last-name> In this case, this "lack" of order is an information by itself! So, I think that in fact we all agree here :-) ... Eric > Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ > snee.com> "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy > spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user -- If you have a XML document, you have its schema. http://examplotron.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 22:24:54 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UFOs9v067164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:24:54 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-28.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064935491!1171272 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 25027 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-28.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 15:24:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18158 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17779 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:24:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:36 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id QAA04797; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:36 +0100 From: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> (message from David Carlisle on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:55 -0000 Just to tie up this thread, unless anyone has any better suggestions I'm planning to use this default namespace om = "http://www.openmath.org/OpenMath" start = y x = element x { attlist.om, (om|notom)* } y = element y { attlist.om, (x | y)* } attlist.om = attribute id { xsd:ID }? om = (x|y) notom = (element * - om:* { attribute * { text }*, notom } | text) Which I believe says that both OpenMath elements take an attribute id of type ID and the content of x can be any non OpenMath element or valid OpenMath. Which is of course what I really wanted to say all along:-) David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Sep 30 23:11:24 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UGBIOU075265 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:11:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27193; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:15 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types Message-ID: <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:11:24 -0000 David Carlisle scripsit: > > I had a DTD > > <!ELEMENT x ANY> > <!ATTLIST x id ID #IMPLIED> > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > Am I confused or is Jing? The fault is with Trang, and yet it's hard to see how it could do any better without taking an entirely different approach. The semantics of ANY in a DTD are essentially (#PCDATA|FOO|BAR|BAZ|...)*, where FOO, BAR, BAZ, ... are the declared elements in the DTD. It does not mean that "any XML" is permissible here, but that's how Trang translates it. Consequently, the declaration of the element named "x" as having an "id" attribute of type ID conflicts with the implicit declaration of "x" (as part of the element wildcard) as having an "id" attribute (as part of the attribute wildcard) of type text. Normally, this wouldn't matter, but the semantics of type ID are global, and RNG requires that ID-declared attributes be consistent throughout the document. Here is an RNC schema that should do what you want: x = element x { attlist.x & not-x* & x* & text} attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x not-x = element (* - x) { attribute * {text}* & not-x* & x* & text } -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him. From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 22:05:12 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF5BSl063459 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:05:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UF55kv021084 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM1001MF8KE98@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM100EZL8KEX7@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:05:03 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi <Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM> In-reply-to: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20030930080215.1732.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:30:40 +0700 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:05:12 -0000 > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. HTML <header> is another example. You can have things like <meta>,<title>,<script>,<link>,... in any order, but you can have at most one <title>. Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 1 00:09:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UH9IMl085578 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:09:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UH6Os0052280 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UH6O2x052279 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200309301706.h8UH6O2x052279@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? In-Reply-To: <20030930080215.1732.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:25 -0000 > > Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, > I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be > incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. > No, I am trying to use jing (actually, one modified for use with rng2srng just because relaxng/impl is good for walking the graph and is not public in the original jing) as a toolkit to parse schemas to build LR parser on top of a markup for a language where elements of original markup are symbols (and elements with no content or text-only content are terminals). I am therefore trying to develop algorithm that approximates a schema with a context-free grammar as close as possible. I realize that a new method can be developed to build an LR parsing algorithm for a language derived from the full RNG but this is beyond my domain of interest now. All markup schemas I looked at can either be trivially rewritten without interleave or use interleave with exactly one element in one of two branches. These cases require a much simpler implementation than the general case. I am now (with the examples brought) even more convinced that interleave as a language tool is a solution looking for a problem; it lets users define languages which are great for validation by RNG but significantly complicate certain other operations beyond the scope of validation. I will be trying to find a solution, but not too hard. Loosening the grammar just a bit will solve my problem and give me a good tool. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 1 01:01:43 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UI1dE9094551 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:01:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UHwjs0052582 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UHwj2d052581 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:01:44 -0000 It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Yet, in my opinion, this application should not be the only one. It is not even the most important one. There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages than validation; Relax NG as it currently specified and implemented, does not make those other things easier. Nor any other schema, to say the truth. David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed Oct 1 01:18:26 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UIIJuq097121 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:18:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28587; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:14:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:14:01 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng Message-ID: <20030930181401.GI19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:18:26 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages > than validation; Give us your list of things, then. -- Business before pleasure, if not too bloomering long before. --Nicholas van Rijn John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan http://www.reutershealth.com From jjc@jclark.com Wed Oct 1 08:07:57 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9117sWE061096 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9117lL10226 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:07:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7A283A.9010802@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 08:04:58 +0700 From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng References: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 01:07:59 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, > is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Not exactly. I see the role of a schema language as being to define the interface between components that communicate using XML. Validation is one aspect of this: it's runtime checking of compliance with the interface. I think it's important that when you have an interface you can mechanically enforce it. But more important than this is just the fact of having an interface that is rigorously defined, yet human understandable. If all you have to define your interface is English prose, it is very likely that different people will interpret it slightly differently. If all you have is XSD, then you had better have a tool like XMLSpy if you want people to understand it. For a schema language to work well in this role, as an XML processing component interface definition language, it's vital that the schema language doesn't do anything other than define a set of XML documents. If a schema does other random stuff useful for processing (like tell you how to turn the XML document into Java objects or add default attributes), then it's making the components that use it as an interface unnecessarily tightly coupled. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I see a growing realization of this point in the move towards service-oriented architectures and "typeless" web services. James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Oct 1 14:32:02 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h917VxPb005519 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:32:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h917VoL11867 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:31:50 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7A823A.2080603@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:28:58 +0700 From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:32:02 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > The fault is with Trang, and yet it's hard to see how it could do any > better without taking an entirely different approach. > > The semantics of ANY in a DTD are essentially (#PCDATA|FOO|BAR|BAZ|...)*, > where FOO, BAR, BAZ, ... are the declared elements in the DTD. It does > not mean that "any XML" is permissible here, but that's how Trang > translates it. Right. But DTDs don't have real wildcards, so if a DTD author wants a real wildcard, the best they can do is approximate it with ANY. Most of the uses of ANY I've come across are cases of this, rather than people actually wanting the DTD semantics. In any case, if you want exactly the DTD semantics, trang can give it to you. See the -i strict-any option: http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/trang-manual.html#dtd-input James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Oct 1 14:39:21 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h917dJvW006258 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:39:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h917d1L11902; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:39:01 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7A83E9.4030302@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:36:09 +0700 From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:39:21 -0000 David Carlisle wrote: > Just to tie up this thread, unless anyone has any better suggestions I'm > planning to use this > > default namespace om = "http://www.openmath.org/OpenMath" > > start = y > > x = element x { attlist.om, (om|notom)* } > > y = element y { attlist.om, (x | y)* } > > attlist.om = attribute id { xsd:ID }? > > > om = (x|y) > > notom = > (element * - om:* { > attribute * { text }*, > notom > } > | text) > > > > Which I believe says that both OpenMath elements take an attribute id of > type ID and the content of x can be any non OpenMath element > or valid OpenMath. Which is of course what I really wanted to say all > along:-) Don't you want non-OpenMath elements to be able to contain valid OpenMath elements as descendants? In any case, don't you want a * on the reference to notom in the definition of notom? James From davidc@nag.co.uk Wed Oct 1 16:39:24 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h919dNS6019079 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:39:24 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1065001003!1195472 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 27519 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2003 09:36:43 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-11.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2003 09:36:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 27360 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2003 09:36:42 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 1 Oct 2003 09:36:42 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03827; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:36:35 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:34:26 +0100 Message-Id: <200310010934.KAA10830@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id KAA10830; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:34:26 +0100 From: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> To: jjc@jclark.com In-reply-to: <3F7A83E9.4030302@jclark.com> (message from James Clark on Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:36:09 +0700) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> <3F7A83E9.4030302@jclark.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:39:24 -0000 > Don't you want non-OpenMath elements to be able to contain valid > OpenMath elements as descendants? Yes thanks, I noticed that. I'm not sure that I do, to be honest. However this is more a language design issue rather than a relax question. It's now clear that whatever I decide here I can express it in relax, so I'm happy. > In any case, don't you want a * on > the reference to notom in the definition of notom? er, yes:-) David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Oct 1 20:13:39 2003 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h91DDYsf045185 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:13:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (g037046.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [211.132.37.46]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40710AFF6; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:13:32 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:10:49 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" <EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng In-Reply-To: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20031001220300.472D.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:13:44 -0000 On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> wrote: > It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, > is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Yet, in > my opinion, this application should not be the only one. It is not even > the most important one. In parallel to the development of RELAX NG, two data-binding tools, namely Relaxer and RelaxNGCC were implemented. Moreover, the designer (Hosoya-san) of XDuce (a functional programming language equipped with schemas as types) also contributed to the design of RELAX NG. We also paid a lot of attention to boolean closure of schemas. > There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages > than validation; Relax NG as it currently specified and implemented, does not > make those other things easier. Relaxer, RelaxNGCC, and XDuce are completely different technologies. I can also imagine some other data binding technologies or programming languages for RELAX NG. If we incorporate mechanisms that are convenient for one particular style of data binding, we run the risk of blocking other styles. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) <EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> From vdv@dyomedea.com Mon Oct 6 21:53:27 2003 Received: from dell (evlist.net1.nerim.net [213.41.149.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h96ErQVj034894 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:53:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from dyomedea.com (unknown [10.0.1.21]) by dell (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016C923787 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:53:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F8181DC.2010106@dyomedea.com> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:53:16 +0200 From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030930 Debian/1.4-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Ann: New version of my book "RELAX NG" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:53:28 -0000 I am happy to announce a new version of my book "RELAX NG" to be published in December by O'Reilly. This version is available at the usual URL [1]: It is now pre-production quality and should be close to the final version which will be available in print [2] and on line both commercially through Safari [3] and on my site [1] (and maybe others) under a GFDL [4] licence. Although the book shouldn't be drastically updated at this point, you are still welcome to submit your feedback using our annotation system. Compared to the version which was previously on line, this new one has gone through a complete copy editing and should be, thanks to Simon St.Laurent and Tracey Cranston, in much better (American) English and much easier to read. The layout of the pages is now generated from DocBook using an adaptation of the LDP customisation of Norm Walsh's XSL stylesheets. This results in a bunch of small pages in a format now familiar to many users and programmers and this should also improve the readability of the web version. I hope you'll enjoy reading it as much as I have enjoyed writing it! Eric [1] http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ [2] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596004214/ [3] http://safari.oreilly.com/ [4] http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html [5] http://annotations.xmlschemata.org/nph-med.cgi/http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ -- Tired to type XML tags? http://wikiml.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From jricker@izarinc.com Fri Oct 3 19:32:43 2003 Received: from smtp-1.njaccess.com (smtp-1.njaccess.com [207.113.27.245]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h93CWgHx071882 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:32:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from njaccess.com (mail.njaccess.com [207.113.27.2]) by smtp-1.njaccess.com (NJAccess Postfix SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E70248DDE for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.127] [64.8.226.4] by njaccess.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AFC19B20104; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:46:57 -0400 From: Jeffrey Ricker <jricker@izarinc.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1065183916.4631.6.camel@estonia.izartech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:09:18 +0700 Subject: [relaxng-user] must externalRef point to a grammar? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:32:44 -0000 X-Original-Date: 03 Oct 2003 08:25:17 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:32:44 -0000 I'm sorry if I missed this in the documentation. I notice in the spec that <include> must point to a file that has a <grammar> element as root. Is the same true for <externalRef> or can I have that file be a simple <element> declaration as its root? From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Oct 7 08:12:21 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h971CKlF037672 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 08:12:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A6gOe-0001gE-00; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 21:12:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:12:16 -0400 To: Jeffrey Ricker <jricker@izarinc.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] must externalRef point to a grammar? Message-ID: <20031007011216.GD19140@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1065183916.4631.6.camel@estonia.izartech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1065183916.4631.6.camel@estonia.izartech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:12:21 -0000 Jeffrey Ricker scripsit: > I'm sorry if I missed this in the documentation. I notice in the spec > that <include> must point to a file that has a <grammar> element as > root. Is the same true for <externalRef> or can I have that file be a > simple <element> declaration as its root? Sure. externalRef can point at any pattern whatsoever. It's just a straight inclusion. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com Monday we watch-a Firefly's house, but he no come out. He wasn't home. Tuesday we go to the ball game, but he fool us. He no show up. Wednesday he go to the ball game, and we fool him. We no show up. Thursday was a double-header. Nobody show up. Friday it rained all day. There was no ball game, so we stayed home and we listened to it on-a the radio. --Chicolini From ts@ts-cyberia.net Thu Oct 23 19:27:42 2003 Received: from thebe.your-site.com (thebe.your-site.com [140.186.45.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NCRgcS068907 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:27:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ts-cyberia.net (eaoska096105.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [218.226.11.105]) by thebe.your-site.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C1E244EC3 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:27:34 +0900 From: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en, he, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:27:43 -0000 I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this possible. Tsuguya Sasaki, PhD http://www.ts-cyberia.net/ http://www.jewish-languages.org/ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Thu Oct 23 19:43:14 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NChDC5070856 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:43:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ACenz-0003gc-00; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:43:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:43:07 -0400 To: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:43:14 -0000 Tsuguya Sasaki scripsit: > I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I > understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema > with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this > possible. Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is really preferred. -- Income tax, if I may be pardoned for saying so, John Cowan is a tax on income. --Lord Macnaghten (1901) jcowan@reutershealth.com From robin.berjon@expway.fr Thu Oct 23 19:51:48 2003 Received: from mwinf0401.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.27]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NCpmvI071992 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:51:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from expway.fr (APastourelles-107-2-4-214.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.9.214]) by mwinf0401.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7A7C4580011D; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:51:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F97CE63.3070906@expway.fr> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:49:39 +0200 From: Robin Berjon <robin.berjon@expway.fr> Organization: Expway User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:51:49 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > Tsuguya Sasaki scripsit: >>I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I >>understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema >>with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this >>possible. > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > really preferred. That's very true, but at the same time, while I'm not at all a big fan of xsi:schemaLocation, DOCTYPE, or other related things such as xml-stylesheet, there are cases in which one just needs a simple and lightweight way of associating a schema with an instance. And RDDL might be a bit too indirect. So why not a simple way for simple cases, and let complex cases be dealt in other ways? Note that a mechanism comparable to xml-stylesheet could cover the case you describe. -- Robin Berjon <robin.berjon@expway.fr> Research Scientist, Expway http://expway.com/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488 From ts@ts-cyberia.net Thu Oct 23 19:55:36 2003 Received: from thebe.your-site.com (thebe.your-site.com [140.186.45.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NCtZH3072567 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:55:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ts-cyberia.net (eaoska096105.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [218.226.11.105]) by thebe.your-site.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFB8245850 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:55:27 +0900 From: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en, he, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:55:37 -0000 John Cowan wrote: >> I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I >> understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema >> with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this >> possible. > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > really preferred. Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I'm familiar with this "theory", but practically speaking, you may nevertheless want to associate RELAX NG with instance documents for, e.g., guided editing with an XML editor; there seem to be other circumstances where the existence of a mechanism for such an association is useful. Tsuguya Sasaki PS: I'm a linguist, so I apologize in advance for some (or all) of my remarks that may not be to the point at all. From veillard@redhat.com Thu Oct 23 20:43:30 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NDhUGN079925 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:43:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h9NDhSq12743; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:43:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:43:27 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> To: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net>; from ts@ts-cyberia.net on Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 09:55:27PM +0900 Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:43:32 -0000 On Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 09:55:27PM +0900, Tsuguya Sasaki wrote: > John Cowan wrote: > > >> I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I > >> understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema > >> with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this > >> possible. > > > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > > really preferred. > > Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I'm familiar with this > "theory", but practically speaking, you may nevertheless want to > associate RELAX NG with instance documents for, e.g., guided editing > with an XML editor; there seem to be other circumstances where the > existence of a mechanism for such an association is useful. I have got the following Request For Enhancement http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125266 the idea growing up seems to have the association done at the toolkit level instead of having it into the instance. IMHO it's quite cleaner, the author can't really know what are the acceptance rule a given instance will go though, but on the other hand at a tool level automating the association between the instance and the schemas simplifies things a lot with the associated results (relibility, cost of maintainance, etc ...) Ideally having a predefined (standardized) vocabulary to match the instances to Schemas (or processing rules but this is yet another can of worms) would be the best way to attack this problem. It's unclear to me whether the approach taken by nXML can really be expanded to other frameworks, I need to read and digest the proposal first, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es Thu Oct 23 21:05:32 2003 Received: from unica.udc.es (unica.udc.es [193.147.41.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NE5VB4083864 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:05:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from unica.udc.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h9NGt2hS002688 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:55:02 -0100 (GMT) Received: from necora.cdf.udc.es (necora.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.147.41.4]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h9NGt2PQ002685 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:55:02 -0100 (GMT) Received: from eps213 (eps213.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.144.52.213]) by necora.cdf.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.11.3) with SMTP id h9NH0gIW012464 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:00:43 -0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <00b701c3996e$d48368e0$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Castro?= <iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es> To: <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:06:13 +0200 Organization: UDC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang problems with interleave X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:05:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I haven't found any Trang mailing list so decided to I post my problem = here. I'm using Trang (version 20030619) to translate my Relax NG schemas to = XML Schemas. I've found that <interleave> element translation works fine if = the patterns inside are elements, but fails if the patterns use definitions. = =20 This is an example: --------------------- input file: test.rnc ------------------------ start =3D element dummy { empty } # Trang works OK interleave_without_definitions =3D element test { element e1 { empty } & element e2 { empty }? } # Trang fails def1 =3D element e1 { empty } def2 =3D element e2 { empty } interleave_with_definitions =3D element test { def1 & def2 ? } --------------------- output file: test.xsd ------------------------ <?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"UTF-8"?> <xs:schema xmlns:xs=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" elementFormDefault=3D"qualified"> <xs:element name=3D"dummy"> <xs:complexType/> </xs:element> <!-- Trang works OK --> <xs:group name=3D"interleave_without_definitions"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element name=3D"test"> <xs:complexType> <xs:all> <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/> <xs:element minOccurs=3D"0" ref=3D"e2"/> </xs:all> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:sequence> </xs:group> <xs:element name=3D"e1"> <xs:complexType/> </xs:element> <xs:element name=3D"e2"> <xs:complexType/> </xs:element> <!-- Trang fails --> <xs:group name=3D"interleave_with_definitions"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element name=3D"test"> <xs:complexType> <xs:choice minOccurs=3D"0" maxOccurs=3D"unbounded"> <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/> <xs:element ref=3D"e2"/> </xs:choice> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:sequence> </xs:group> </xs:schema> As you can see, "interleave_without_definitions" uses xs:all (fine) but "interleave_with_definitions" uses "xs:choice" (wrong).=20 I need definitions in my schema. Is there any workarround to this problem ? Thanks in advance, Manuel ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#d4d0c8> <DIV><SPAN class=3Dq0>Hello,<BR><BR>I haven't found any Trang mailing = list so=20 decided to I post my problem here.<BR><BR>I'm using Trang (version = 20030619) to=20 translate my Relax NG schemas to XML<BR>Schemas. I've found that=20 <interleave> element translation works fine if the<BR>patterns = inside are=20 elements, but fails if the patterns use definitions.  <BR><BR>This = is an=20 example:<BR><BR>--------------------- input file: test.rnc=20 ------------------------<BR><BR>start =3D element dummy { empty = }<BR><BR># Trang=20 works OK<BR>interleave_without_definitions =3D<BR>  element test = {<BR> =20   element e1 { empty }<BR>    & element e2 { empty=20 }?<BR>  }<BR><BR># Trang fails<BR>def1 =3D element e1 { empty = }<BR>def2 =3D=20 element e2 { empty }<BR>interleave_with_definitions =3D<BR> element = test {=20 def1  & def2 ? }<BR><BR>--------------------- output file: = test.xsd=20 ------------------------<BR><BR><?xml version=3D"1.0"=20 encoding=3D"UTF-8"?><BR><xs:schema xmlns:xs=3D"<A class=3D0=20 href=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"><FONT=20 color=3D#000000>http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema</FONT></A>"<BR> =20 elementFormDefault=3D"qualified"> <xs:element = name=3D"dummy"><BR> =20   <xs:complexType/><BR>  </xs:element><BR>  = <!--=20 Trang works OK --><BR>  <xs:group=20 name=3D"interleave_without_definitions"><BR>   =20 <xs:sequence><BR>      <xs:element=20 name=3D"test"><BR>        = <xs:complexType><BR> =20         <xs:all><BR>      =    =20   <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/><BR>        =    =20 <xs:element minOccurs=3D"0" ref=3D"e2"/><BR>      =    =20 </xs:all><BR>        = </xs:complexType><BR> =20     </xs:element><BR>   =20 </xs:sequence><BR>  </xs:group><BR>  = <xs:element=20 name=3D"e1"><BR>    <xs:complexType/><BR> =20 </xs:element><BR>  <xs:element name=3D"e2"><BR>  =  =20 <xs:complexType/><BR>  </xs:element><BR>  <!-- = Trang=20 fails --><BR>  <xs:group=20 name=3D"interleave_with_definitions"><BR>   =20 <xs:sequence><BR>      <xs:element=20 name=3D"test"><BR>        = <xs:complexType><BR> =20         <xs:choice minOccurs=3D"0"=20 maxOccurs=3D"unbounded"><BR>            = <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/><BR>          =  =20 <xs:element ref=3D"e2"/><BR>         =20 </xs:choice><BR>       =20 </xs:complexType><BR>      = </xs:element><BR> =20   </xs:sequence><BR> =20 </xs:group><BR></xs:schema><BR><BR>As you can see,=20 "interleave_without_definitions" uses xs:all (fine)=20 but<BR>"interleave_with_definitions" uses "xs:choice" (wrong).=20 <BR><BR>I need definitions in my schema.<BR>Is there any = workarround to=20 this problem ?<BR><BR>Thanks in=20 advance,<BR>Manuel<BR></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0-- From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Oct 23 21:43:06 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NEh2vl090107 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:43:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9NEeEgv062430 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:40:14 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9NEeE4q062429 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:40:14 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:40:14 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:43:07 -0000 > Tsuguya Sasaki scripsit: > > I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I > > understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema > > with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this > > possible. > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > really preferred. > Sounds like a mantra. In simpler words, the people who designed the technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. If I pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I formally express it in a standard way? Is there something more platform independent and XML-ish than #!/bin/sh java -jar jing.jar schema.rng document.xml ? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Fri Oct 24 00:56:21 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NHuL8U023264 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:56:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04706; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:51:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:51:22 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:56:21 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > In simpler words, the people who designed the > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. > If I > pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I > formally express it in a standard way? How about this: <?xml version="1.0"?> <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:rngspec="http://www.relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html#/"> <rdf:Description about="http://davidashen.net/document.xml"> <rngspec:validity rdf:resource="http://www.davidashen.net/schema.rng"/> </rdf:Description> </rdf:RDF> -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 08:34:55 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O1YrGl087110 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:34:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9O1YRY18177; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:34:27 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:35:01 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 08:31:09 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:35:01 -0000 On Thu, 2003-10-23 at 20:43, Daniel Veillard wrote: > the idea growing up seems to have the association done at the toolkit > level instead of having it into the instance. Right. I believe it's quite wrong for a schema language to dictate that a document type designer must use an element name or an attribute for a particular purpose (as W3C XML Schema does with xsi:type or xsi:schemaLocation). The document type designer should be the one who decides what element names and attribute names to use, and the schema language should allow the document type designer to write a schema to reflect their decision. I think this extends to any association mechanism and it also applies to processing instruction target names. This does not prevent your having something in the instance that influences the association but it does imply that the ultimate authority must be outside the instance. If, for example, you want a processing instruction in the instance to point to the schema, then there must be something outside the instance that says that this is what you want and that specifies the processing instruction target to use for this purpose. Once you decide that you want something outside the instance to control the association, I think it's an obvious decision to express that something in XML and it's highly desirable to make it application-independent. > It's unclear > to me whether the approach taken by nXML can really be expanded to other > frameworks If it can't, then it's a bug. It was a fundamental design goal to express the association rules in an application-independent way. Eventually, I hope to implement this for Jing as well. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 08:54:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O1sbLN089680 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:54:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9O1oKY18276; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:50:20 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:54:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 08:47:04 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:54:40 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 00:51, John Cowan wrote: > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > In simpler words, the people who designed the > > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. > > It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML > processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly > general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. I would divide the problem of specifying appropriate XML processing for a document into: (a) how to specify the process to be performed (b) how to locate the appropriate processing specification I see (b) as a special case of the problem of how to specify rules that, given an XML document, find a related resource. This is problem that the XML vocabulary that I've designed for nXML mode is intended to solve. It's not specific to RELAX NG or for that matter to schemas. You could use the same vocabulary to describe how to find the XSLT stylesheet to use to display an XML document. > > If I > > pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I > > formally express it in a standard way? > > How about this: > > <?xml version="1.0"?> > <rdf:RDF > xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" > xmlns:rngspec="http://www.relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html#/"> > <rdf:Description about="http://davidashen.net/document.xml"> > <rngspec:validity rdf:resource="http://www.davidashen.net/schema.rng"/> > </rdf:Description> > </rdf:RDF> Although it's important to be able to individually specify the schema to use for a particular document, it's also convenient to be able to specify rules that apply to classes of document. For example, on my system I have a rule that says when the namespace URI of the document element is http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0, then the schema is /home/jjc/schema/relaxng.rnc. James From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Oct 24 13:10:01 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O69wEN021207 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:10:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9O67Fgv068329 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:07:15 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9O67ENu068328 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:07:14 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:07:14 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:10:05 -0000 > On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 00:51, John Cowan wrote: > > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > > > In simpler words, the people who designed the > > > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > > > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. > > > > It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML > > processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly > > general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. > > I would divide the problem of specifying appropriate XML processing for > a document into: > > (a) how to specify the process to be performed > > (b) how to locate the appropriate processing specification > > I see (b) as a special case of the problem of how to specify rules that, > given an XML document, find a related resource. This is problem that > the XML vocabulary that I've designed for nXML mode is intended to > solve. It's not specific to RELAX NG or for that matter to schemas. > You could use the same vocabulary to describe how to find the XSLT > stylesheet to use to display an XML document. The approach designed for nXML is good. However, it has traps. I agree that the approach can be convenietly used to assist the user in choosing the right associations (a schema, a stylesheet, etc). But after the association is chosen, it should be somehow attached to the document, at least, in some cases. It is my decision that document X uses schema Y for validation. Once I made this decision, all later processing should be based on that, and any change in association should be expressed explicitly. With the approach described, changes in the map can cause changes in associations; and it can come completely unexpected to the user. Consider a system where the map is a system-wide resource. Providing a rule in the file that associates the document's URI with a resource does not help either. The association should persist if I change the name of the document. The fact that I renamed my document from users-guide.dbx to user-guide.dbx should not lead to any change in the associations to schemas and stylesheets. It is a property of the document as an entity to be valid against a schema and processable by a stylesheet, nor of its file name, or its root element, or its root element's namespace. If I misspell the root element or the namespace, I want an error message saying that the name or namespace are misspelled, not that the documented is invalid with respect to a schema selected according to a misspelled URL. Thus, for me the only reasonable choice is still to use the DOCTYPE declaration for all associations and only rely on other characteristics for interactive hints (a list of DOCTYPEs that should be good for this document). David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 14:07:35 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O77V4A027744 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:07:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9O745Y19921; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:04:05 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066978846.21207.279.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:07:35 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 14:00:46 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:07:35 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 13:07, David Tolpin wrote: > I agree that the approach can be convenietly used to assist the user > in choosing the right associations (a schema, a stylesheet, etc). But after > the association is chosen, it should be somehow attached to the document, > at least, in some cases. > > It is my decision that document X uses schema Y for validation. Once I made > this decision, all later processing should be based on that, and any change > in association should be expressed explicitly. That's one policy that you might want, but I don't think it's the only one. You can get it by explicitly adding a <uri resource="..." ...> element to a schema locating file. > With the approach described, changes in the map can cause changes in associations; > and it can come completely unexpected to the user. Consider a system where the map > is a system-wide resource. The user can choose whether to use a system-wide map or their own map. The user might *want* changing the map to cause changes in association. > Providing a rule in the file that associates the document's URI with a resource does not > help either. It's not perfect, but it certainly helps. > The association should persist if I change the name of the document. > > The fact that I renamed my document from users-guide.dbx to user-guide.dbx should not > lead to any change in the associations to schemas and stylesheets. That is a problem. The real solution is to be able to attach metadata to the file without changing the content; unfortunately filesystems typically can't do that. On the other hand, WebDAV can; you could have a new rule type that specified a WebDAV property that contains the URI of the schema for a document. > Thus, for me the only reasonable choice is still to use the DOCTYPE declaration for all > associations If you want to use DOCTYPEs, the nXML method can accomodate you (by doctypePublicId rules). However, I find the problems of using DOCTYPEs worse by far than the problem of associations disappearing on a rename. And even with DOCTYPEs, you can still get problem of the association changing; you still have to associate your DOCTYPEs with schemas. If you force me to put something in the instance, I would much prefer a processing instruction. There's no single right way to do the association. Different users will legitimately prefer different approaches. A solution needs to be flexible enough to accomodate them. James From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Oct 24 14:21:29 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O7LPE1029353 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:21:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9O7Iggv068620 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:18:42 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9O7IglK068619 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:18:42 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310240718.h9O7IglK068619@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <1066978846.21207.279.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:18:42 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:21:29 -0000 > The user might *want* changing the map to cause changes in association. But this should be done in such a way that all changes in associations for already associated documents are explicit and obvious. Without that, and with rules with complex inference, the consequences are not always desirable. I am talking from experience. At the time of RenderX, we had a client who complained about a bug in XEP (an XSL FO formatter) being unable to format a document and giving weird diagnostic messages (and our support people having no idea where this diagnostics comes from). I asked about their system, and indeed they had a CMS that associated documents and stylesheets based on complex rules stored in a database, and indeed the database administrator has changed the records in such a way that a chain of transformation had changed. The result was a user complaining of a tool that failed to format a documents 'when more figures are added' (which was just a coincidence). > > > Providing a rule in the file that associates the document's URI with a resource does not > > help either. > > It's not perfect, but it certainly helps. It certainly helps, I'm sorry for the wording; I meant it didn't help to avoid the trap just described. > That is a problem. The real solution is to be able to attach metadata to > the file without changing the content; unfortunately filesystems > typically can't do that. On the other hand, WebDAV can; you could have > a new rule type that specified a WebDAV property that contains the URI > of the schema for a document. Yes. But WebDAV is too much for many cases. > > Thus, for me the only reasonable choice is still to use the DOCTYPE declaration for all > > associations > > If you want to use DOCTYPEs, the nXML method can accomodate you (by > doctypePublicId rules). However, I find the problems of using DOCTYPEs > worse by far than the problem of associations disappearing on a rename. > And even with DOCTYPEs, you can still get problem of the association > changing; you still have to associate your DOCTYPEs with schemas. If > you force me to put something in the instance, I would much prefer a > processing instruction. > Well, you are right. I mentioned DOCTYPE but actually wanted something like a processing-instruction with something like a public identifier as the target. > There's no single right way to do the association. Different users will > legitimately prefer different approaches. A solution needs to be > flexible enough to accomodate them. But my concern is that that particular flexibility bears problems which are more scalable than the solution. That is, when the system is getting bigger, the problems outweigh the benefits. I realize that I can be wrong. David Tolpin From george@sync.ro Fri Oct 24 14:27:19 2003 Received: from decebal.sync.ro (decebal.sync.ro [217.156.64.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O7RGHJ029941 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:27:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from spelling ([10.0.0.19]) by decebal.sync.ro (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9O7OsPw003508 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:24:57 +0300 Message-ID: <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> From: "George Cristian Bina" <george@sync.ro> To: <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:33:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:27:20 -0000 Hi, I think it is important to both have an association with a schema specified inside the document and the possibility to associate the schema externally. The external association seems to me user dependent as each user may have his rules while the internal association is something user independent as the association comes with the document. For instance if I want to pass over a document to someone it is a lot simpler to allow him to validate the document if I have the association inside the document. We solved the association problem in oXygen using a PI, however it would be much better to have a PI every application that wants to support Relax NG should implement, thus users using different tools will be able to easily exchange documents. I think Relax NG should specify such a PI. (It will be good if NRL will also specify such a PI). I see the external association especially important when the user handles documents that do not or should not have an association inside the document. Best Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina mailto:george@sync.ro <oXygen/> XML Editor - http://www.oxygenxml.com/ From veillard@redhat.com Fri Oct 24 16:29:21 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O9TKqK043994 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:29:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h9O9TIM22594; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:29:18 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:29:18 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031024052918.A4507@redhat.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com>; from jjc@jclark.com on Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:31:09AM +0700 Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:29:21 -0000 On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:31:09AM +0700, James Clark wrote: > Once you decide that you want something outside the instance to control > the association, I think it's an obvious decision to express that > something in XML and it's highly desirable to make it > application-independent. Yes, this really makes sense. > > It's unclear > > to me whether the approach taken by nXML can really be expanded to other > > frameworks > > If it can't, then it's a bug. It was a fundamental design goal to > express the association rules in an application-independent way. > Eventually, I hope to implement this for Jing as well. Okay, thanks for the information. I will look at it once I'm done with the current work, the request in bugzilla will stay there to remind me about it, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From veillard@redhat.com Fri Oct 24 16:39:00 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O9d0NQ045045 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:39:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h9O9cvt26808; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:38:57 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:38:57 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com>; from jjc@jclark.com on Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:47:04AM +0700 Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>, John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:39:00 -0000 On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:47:04AM +0700, James Clark wrote: > Although it's important to be able to individually specify the schema to > use for a particular document, it's also convenient to be able to > specify rules that apply to classes of document. For example, on my > system I have a rule that says when the namespace URI of the document > element is http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0, then the schema is > /home/jjc/schema/relaxng.rnc. Hum, that's a place where I would expect the XML Catalogs to take a role in abstracting the file paths. I would still recommend to use a canonical URL (is there one for relaxng.rnc one http://relaxng.org ?) and have the catalogs remap to the actual file location. This was really important as we deployed DocBook processing tools on the various Linux distributions (and Solaris), I would like to be able to do the same as I'm starting to push Relax-NG schemas (DocBook, XHTML1, SVG are good candidate, as well as the RNG for RNG schema). It's less critical than when the reference ends up in the instance, but would still helps a lot for system setup, tools setup and documentation. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Oct 24 16:49:42 2003 Received: from dell (evlist.net1.nerim.net [213.41.149.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O9nb9U046136 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:49:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.1.21]) by dell (Postfix) with ESMTP id D121023779; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:49:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> In-Reply-To: <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1066988977.1402.2.camel@porteric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:49:37 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:49:42 -0000 Hi James, On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 03:31, James Clark wrote: > Right. I believe it's quite wrong for a schema language to dictate that > a document type designer must use an element name or an attribute for a > particular purpose (as W3C XML Schema does with xsi:type or > xsi:schemaLocation). The document type designer should be the one who > decides what element names and attribute names to use, and the schema > language should allow the document type designer to write a schema to > reflect their decision. I think this extends to any association > mechanism and it also applies to processing instruction target names. Do you think this should be added to the requirements of DSDL - Part 10 (Validation Management) ? Eric -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 19:28:05 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OCS2TM064282 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:28:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9OCRXY21572; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:27:33 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: George Cristian Bina <george@sync.ro> In-Reply-To: <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066998256.21207.284.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:28:05 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 19:24:16 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:28:05 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 15:33, George Cristian Bina wrote: > We solved the association problem in oXygen using a PI What does your PI look like exactly? James From george@sync.ro Fri Oct 24 20:17:13 2003 Received: from decebal.sync.ro (decebal.sync.ro [217.156.64.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9ODHBri072048 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from spelling ([10.0.0.19]) by decebal.sync.ro (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9ODEjPw011018; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:14:46 +0300 Message-ID: <029f01c39a3a$523f0bb0$1300000a@spelling> From: "George Cristian Bina" <george@sync.ro> To: "James Clark" <jjc@jclark.com> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> <1066998256.21207.284.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:22:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:17:13 -0000 Hi James, For Relax NG we have something like below: <?oxygen RNGSchema="test/RelaxNG/compact/test1.rnc" type="compact"?> <?oxygen RNGSchema="test/RelaxNG/XML/test1.rng" type="xml"?> For NRL: <?oxygen NRLSchema="test/RelaxNG/NRL/nrlSchema.nrl"?> I guess these can be put better into something like: <?schema location="schemaLocation" type="rnc|rng|nrl"?> For type we can eventually have as values: text/rnc, text/rng or text/nrl. For compact schemas we may also need an encoding pseudo attribute. Best Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina mailto:george@sync.ro <oXygen/> XML Editor - http://www.oxygenxml.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Clark" <jjc@jclark.com> To: "George Cristian Bina" <george@sync.ro> Cc: <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document > On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 15:33, George Cristian Bina wrote: > > > We solved the association problem in oXygen using a PI > > What does your PI look like exactly? > > James > > From gtxrg-relaxng-user@gmane.org Sat Oct 25 01:21:02 2003 Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OIL1BH023685 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:21:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6YV-00051L-00 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:20:59 +0200 Mail-Followup-To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6VL-0004yO-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:43 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6VL-0000g4-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:43 +0200 From: Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:42 +0200 Organization: Probably a good idea Lines: 28 Message-ID: <87ismeqz3t.fsf@doohan.bang.priv.no> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp, linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:xgfeDr3JnEiF3XlxGnMoYjZX4/g= Sender: news <news@sea.gmane.org> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:21:03 -0000 >>>>> Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com>: > Hum, that's a place where I would expect the XML Catalogs to take a > role in abstracting the file paths. I would still recommend to use a > canonical URL (is there one for relaxng.rnc one http://relaxng.org > ?) and have the catalogs remap to the actual file location. This > was really important as we deployed DocBook processing tools on the > various Linux distributions (and Solaris), I would like to be able > to do the same as I'm starting to push Relax-NG schemas (DocBook, > XHTML1, SVG are good candidate, as well as the RNG for RNG schema). > It's less critical than when the reference ends up in the instance, > but would still helps a lot for system setup, tools setup and > documentation. One way of doing this would be to have a similar approach to what's done with XML Catalogs on the different linuxen. Ie. have an /etc/xml/locator file in addition to the /etc/xml/catalog files, and have the RPMs, or deb packages, for different schemas, add and remove entries from this file. Of course, this would require a tool like your "xmlcatalog" program, and/or a hierarchical structure like that adopted by the debian SGML/XML policy http://people.debian.org/~mrj/xml-sgml-policy/debian-policy/ (...and it would also require all linux distros to adopt this format, which sort of overlaps with XML Catalogs, just as they have all started to use XML Catalogs...) From gtxrg-relaxng-user@gmane.org Sat Oct 25 01:31:08 2003 Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OIV7iM025407 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:31:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6iC-0005Ak-00 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:31:00 +0200 Mail-Followup-To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6d8-00057l-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:25:46 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6d8-0000xO-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:25:46 +0200 From: Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:25:45 +0200 Organization: Probably a good idea Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8765ieqyqe.fsf@doohan.bang.priv.no> References: <1066978846.21207.279.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> <200310240718.h9O7IglK068619@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp, linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Y1dnFjq0BIxHkz8y3eli91YF604= Sender: news <news@sea.gmane.org> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:31:09 -0000 >>>>> David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>: > Well, you are right. I mentioned DOCTYPE but actually wanted > something like a processing-instruction with something like a public > identifier as the target. >From the nXML Document/schema association proposal: ... A typeIdProcessingInstruction rule allows a document to specify its own typeId with a processing instruction. The target attribute specifies the processing instruction target that should be recognized as specifying a typeId in its value. For example, with an additional rule <typeIdProcessingInstruction target="my-doctype"/> a document that started <?my-doctype XHTML Transitional?> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> would be validated against xhtml-transitional.rnc. The entire proposal is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/259 From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Oct 25 01:43:51 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OIhlop027686 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:43:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9OIf0gv073655 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:41:00 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9OIf0NS073654 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:41:00 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310241841.h9OIf0NS073654@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <8765ieqyqe.fsf@doohan.bang.priv.no> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:40:59 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:43:53 -0000 > >>>>> David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>: > > > Well, you are right. I mentioned DOCTYPE but actually wanted > > something like a processing-instruction with something like a public > > identifier as the target. > > >From the nXML Document/schema association proposal: > ... > A typeIdProcessingInstruction rule allows a document to specify its > own typeId with a processing instruction. The target attribute > specifies the processing instruction target that should be > recognized as specifying a typeId in its value. For example, with > an additional rule > > <typeIdProcessingInstruction target="my-doctype"/> > > a document that started > > <?my-doctype XHTML Transitional?> > <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > > would be validated against xhtml-transitional.rnc. > > The entire proposal is here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/259 Yes, I had read the proposal before posting. My opinion is that this association should be obligatory once present and could not be overriden. As specified, it can be overriden completely unexpectedly for the user. David Tolpin From jjc@jclark.com Sat Oct 25 06:12:05 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9ONC25V069373 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:12:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9ON8YY25380; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:08:35 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310241841.h9OIf0NS073654@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310241841.h9OIf0NS073654@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067036716.21207.303.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:12:06 -0000 X-Original-Date: 25 Oct 2003 06:05:16 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:12:06 -0000 On Sat, 2003-10-25 at 01:40, David Tolpin wrote: > My opinion is that this association should be > obligatory once present and could not be overriden. It's a basic tenet of RELAX NG that the schema is not inherent in the document and that validation is a process that has two independently-specifiable inputs. Section 8 of the spec says: "A conforming RELAX NG validator must be able to determine for any XML document and for any correct RELAX NG schema whether the document is valid with respect to the schema." If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if the document contains a particular processing instruction, then there should not be a way to validate it against a schema other than that specified in the processing instruction. That's clearly non-conformant. A conforming RELAX NG validator must allow you to use any schema to validate a document, no matter what processing instruction the document contains. James From jjc@jclark.com Sat Oct 25 06:20:22 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9ONKJji070298 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:20:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9ONJSY25417; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:19:28 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067037369.21207.314.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>, John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:20:22 -0000 X-Original-Date: 25 Oct 2003 06:16:09 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:20:22 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 16:38, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Hum, that's a place where I would expect the XML Catalogs to take > a role in abstracting the file paths. I think that's an independent issue. If you are in an environment that has a policy of using XML catalogs for URI remapping in XML-related contexts, then it would make sense to use them for remapping both URIs occuring in include/externalRef in schemas and URIs occurring in locating files. However I don't see any need to explicitly couple locating files to catalogs. My personal opinion is that, although XML catalogs are an appropriate solution to the problem of publicId-to-URI mapping, using XML catalogs to perform URI-to-URI mapping is an XML-specific solution to a non-XML-specific problem. James From catcode@catcode.com Sat Oct 25 07:37:38 2003 Received: from tengu.host4u.net (tengu.host4u.net [209.150.128.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9P0bb1R079372 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:37:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (catcode@localhost) by tengu.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9P0aTP31146 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:36:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:36:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. David Eisenberg" <catcode@catcode.com> X-X-Sender: catcode@tengu.host4u.net To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310241925060.29421-100000@tengu.host4u.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang handling of (text|element) content X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:37:38 -0000 By "popular demand" my XML class wants to know about XML Schema. One example is a document that consists of one or more lists. A list consists of one or more items. Each item consists of text or a list. (Yes, I'm teaching about recursive definitions.) Sample document follows: <document> <list> <item> First item outer </item> <item> Second item outer </item> <item> <list> <item> nested first </item> </list> </item> <item> Third item outer </item> </list> </document> Relax NG follows: <grammar xmlns="http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"> <start> <element name="document"> <oneOrMore> <ref name="list-defn"/> </oneOrMore> </element> </start> <define name="list-defn"> <element name="list"> <oneOrMore> <element name="item"> <choice> <text /> <ref name="list-defn"/> </choice> </element> </oneOrMore> </element> </define> </grammar> Here's what Trang makes of it (with blank lines inserted for ease of reading). <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" elementFormDefault="qualified"> <xs:element name="document"> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence> <xs:element maxOccurs="unbounded" ref="list"/> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> <xs:element name="list"> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence> <xs:element maxOccurs="unbounded" ref="item"/> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> <xs:element name="item"> <xs:complexType mixed="true"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element minOccurs="0" ref="list"/> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:schema> But the "item" element is NOT mixed; if you make an item mixed as follows, then it's invalid according to Relax NG, but not according to XML Schema. <item> some text and a... <list> <item>nested</item> </list> </item> My questions are: 1) Can I write an XML Schema that will do exactly the same thing that the Relax NG does? 2) If so, how many hoops must I jump through to accomplish it? 3) I'm sure Trang's output is reasonable, but I don't understand the reasoning. Any simple explanations? -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Oct 25 10:20:45 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9P3Kg7i098675 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:20:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9P3Hrgv078560 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:17:53 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9P3HpTK078559 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:17:51 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <1067036716.21207.303.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:17:51 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:20:46 -0000 > > My opinion is that this association should be > > obligatory once present and could not be overriden. > > It's a basic tenet of RELAX NG that the schema is not inherent in the > document and that validation is a process that has two > independently-specifiable inputs. Section 8 of the spec says: "A > conforming RELAX NG validator must be able to determine for any XML > document and for any correct RELAX NG schema whether the document is > valid with respect to the schema." If I understand you correctly, > you're saying that if the document contains a particular processing > instruction, then there should not be a way to validate it against a > schema other than that specified in the processing instruction. That's > clearly non-conformant. A conforming RELAX NG validator must allow you > to use any schema to validate a document, no matter what processing > instruction the document contains. Yes, I am aware of it. I am saying that any engine using inference rules to determine the right association should have a well-defined single highest-priority rule, which is, when matched, cannot be overriden by any others. This has nothing to do with the ability to validate with various schemas. The validator itself does not even look at these rules. It validates. It can be passed any document and any schema, for example, by specifying the schema explicitely. But I want to make sure that I have a way to specify something about the document that does not allow racing matches. That way I am always sure that on my system a document I am explicit about its type is validated in a way I have specified for this type, whatever other rules sale. And this specific association can be expressed in a more persistent way than jing's command line. Other inference rules will still be used if a highest priority rule does not match, and it is a good thing. I just want explicit typing bound to a document, not to a keyboard keystroke. I surely understand something wrong. I am taking a pause until I realize what in particular. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Sat Oct 25 11:05:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9P45asH004327 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:05:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9P45KY26815; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:05:20 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Trang handling of (text|element) content From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: "J. David Eisenberg" <catcode@catcode.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310241925060.29421-100000@tengu.host4u.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310241925060.29421-100000@tengu.host4u.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067054519.21207.328.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:05:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: 25 Oct 2003 11:01:59 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:05:40 -0000 On Sat, 2003-10-25 at 07:36, J. David Eisenberg wrote: > One example is a document that consists of one or more lists. > A list consists of one or more items. Each item consists of text > or a list. > 1) Can I write an XML Schema that will do exactly the same thing that > the Relax NG does? IIRC, no. Content models in XSD have atoms that match elements. > 3) I'm sure Trang's output is reasonable, but I don't understand the > reasoning. Any simple explanations? When some RELAX NG schema cannot be translated exactly into XML Schema, Trang approximates by generalizing: it finds some XML Schema that allows everything that the RELAX NG allows, even if some things forbidden by the RELAX NG are not forbidden by the XML Schema. James From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Oct 25 20:15:59 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9PDFwts061164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:15:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC86278622; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:15:54 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20031025141556.027bf968@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:16:32 +0100 To: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> From: Dave Pawson <dpawson@nildram.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:16:00 -0000 At 13:51 23/10/2003 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >David Tolpin scripsit: > > > In simpler words, the people who designed the > > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. > >It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML >processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly >general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. > > > If I > > pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I > > formally express it in a standard way? > >How about this: > ><?xml version="1.0"?> ><rdf:RDF Enough. No thanks John. regards daveP From pri@ddf.dk Sun Oct 26 02:50:03 2003 Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9PJnvT3005842 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 02:50:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ddf.dk (unknown [62.243.82.88]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D595EE0ED; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:49:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:49:35 +0200 From: Peter Ring <pri@ddf.dk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document References: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:50:03 -0000 I'm in sympathy with the desire not to gamble about what can be asserted about an XML instance. I'll elaborate a bit about why. I'm in favor of something similar to SGML's DOCTYPE. I'm aware of the bagage of DOCTYPE, but please, if just for a moment, consider that all the funny and peculiar features of SGML are there for a reason -- because someone actually needed them -- and that those needs don't go away just because we restrict the choice of encodings and markup delimiters. So maybe a DOCTYPE is overloaded with default attribute values etc. It also serves a more abstract purpose that won't ever go away -- it's a way to establish a contract between the producer and the consumers of a document. That a DOCTYPE declaration can refer to the external subset of a SGML or XML DTD happens to be a way to fulfil that purpose. From a user's point of view, it is not that important that Relax NG fundamentally is a better way of describing syntax if you won't be able to use it in a reliable and predictable way. I my world, there's nothing special about SGML and XML documents. They serve a number of purposes, but always as means to end, i.e., nobody actually wants 'XML documents', rather some business goal must be fulfilled, legal publishing in my case. Configuration management is inherent in the process, it is *not* an option. Documents have very long and complex lifecycles, and change is inevitable and must be planned for. Now, versioning (configuration management) of XML languages and vocabularies is not easy, the DOCTYPE declaration clearly doesn't fit the bill, and XML namespaces appear to be as much a part of the problem as the solution. But couldn't we at least have one (1) standard way of asserting that a XML document belongs to a (version of) a specific class of documents, "expressed in a more persistent way than jing's command line"? Kind regards Peter Ring David Tolpin wrote: <snip/> > But I want to make sure that I have a way to specify something about the document that > does not allow racing matches. That way I am always sure that on my system a document > I am explicit about its type is validated in a way I have specified for this type, > whatever other rules sale. And this specific association can be expressed in a more > persistent way than jing's command line. > > Other inference rules will still be used if a highest priority rule does not match, and it > is a good thing. I just want explicit typing bound to a document, not to a keyboard keystroke. > > I surely understand something wrong. I am taking a pause until I realize what in particular. From jjc@jclark.com Sun Oct 26 13:07:34 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9Q67VfC073604 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:07:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9Q67FY14285; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:07:15 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: Peter Ring <pri@ddf.dk> In-Reply-To: <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> References: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067148215.21207.387.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:07:39 -0000 X-Original-Date: 26 Oct 2003 13:03:35 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:07:39 -0000 On Sun, 2003-10-26 at 02:49, Peter Ring wrote: > I'm in favor of something similar to SGML's DOCTYPE. I'm aware of the > bagage of DOCTYPE, but please, if just for a moment, consider that all > the funny and peculiar features of SGML are there for a reason -- > because someone actually needed them -- and that those needs don't go > away just because we restrict the choice of encodings and markup delimiters. > > So maybe a DOCTYPE is overloaded with default attribute values etc. It > also serves a more abstract purpose that won't ever go away -- it's a > way to establish a contract between the producer and the consumers of a > document. That a DOCTYPE declaration can refer to the external subset of > a SGML or XML DTD happens to be a way to fulfil that purpose. A DOCTYPE declaration does nothing more than identify the external subset. Eliot Kimber is eloquent on this one. See for example the thread at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2000Jan/thread.html#66 > Documents have very long > and complex lifecycles, and change is inevitable and must be planned for. Which is exactly why your documents should not contain anything specific to a particular schema language. Who knows what schema language we'll all be using in 20 years? > But couldn't we at least have one (1) standard way of > asserting that a XML document belongs to a (version of) a specific class > of documents The assertion shouldn't be specific to a particular schema language. The assertion should be an assertion that the document belongs to a particular abstract type; an abstract document type involves more than just the (usually infinite) set of documents belonging to the type; there's also semantics, whether formal or informal. There is no standardized way to make such an assertion. It's not the job of RELAX NG (or indeed of any particular schema language) to standardize such a mechanism. If you want there to be a standard way, I suggest you take it up with the W3C or some other standards body. I agree that it's often desirable to have a document include information about the abstract type to which it belongs. But it's up to you to decide how your documents should represent this information, just like it's up to you to decide how they should represent any other information. If namespaces aren't enough, then use a PI or use an attribute on the document element. The choice is yours. A schema association mechanism should be able to make use of whatever reasonable way you've chosen rather than mandate a particular way. James From pri@ddf.dk Sun Oct 26 18:29:56 2003 Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9QBTueG004631 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:29:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ddf.dk (unknown [62.243.82.88]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DF3480072; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:29:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3F9BB02F.9000507@ddf.dk> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:29:51 +0100 From: Peter Ring <pri@ddf.dk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document References: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> <1067148215.21207.387.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> In-Reply-To: <1067148215.21207.387.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:29:57 -0000 Thanks for the pointer to the XHTML DOCTYPE discussion; I'm going to read up on ISO/IEC 10744:1997. To sum up for now, I'd prefer not to (have to) put schema-specific in the documents, given that the assertion shouldn't be specific to a particular schema language (or any other processing). I'd prefer not to maintain an unbounded number of ways to facilitate essentially the same thing (to classify a document and take appropriate action). Also, given that the main point of using XML is neutral storage and interchange, it would shure be nice if we had a few common access points that all XML producers and consumers could rely on. While I can establish a local way of representing the class of a document, I can't expect the off-the-shelf applications that we use today to know about it. And, there's no way I can know which XML producers and consumers I'll have to deal with tomorrow. Of course, it's not the duty of Relax NG to solve this problem. It's just that Relax NG is a hot spot for this discussion right now. Kind regards Peter Ring James Clark wrote: <snip/> > The assertion shouldn't be specific to a particular schema language. The > assertion should be an assertion that the document belongs to a > particular abstract type; an abstract document type involves more than > just the (usually infinite) set of documents belonging to the type; > there's also semantics, whether formal or informal. > > There is no standardized way to make such an assertion. It's not the job > of RELAX NG (or indeed of any particular schema language) to standardize > such a mechanism. If you want there to be a standard way, I suggest you > take it up with the W3C or some other standards body. > > I agree that it's often desirable to have a document include information > about the abstract type to which it belongs. But it's up to you to > decide how your documents should represent this information, just like > it's up to you to decide how they should represent any other > information. If namespaces aren't enough, then use a PI or use an > attribute on the document element. The choice is yours. A schema > association mechanism should be able to make use of whatever reasonable > way you've chosen rather than mandate a particular way. From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 29 02:31:12 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9SJV8Wc058612 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:31:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SJRugv007346 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:56 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9SJRsO6007345 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:54 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310281927.h9SJRsO6007345@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:54 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:31:13 -0000 Hi, if I understand it correctly, relaxng-based editors use validation algorithm as described in the paper about Jing (based on derivatives) to offer first elements of the current derivative as possible alternatives. However, for many practical cases, the set of valid elements at any given point is determined by a small context of the point; for docbook, for example, it is one parent and one preceding element for all cases. RELAX NG in general may require a wider context for this approach; due to its context-dependence. Is there a known algorithm to build distinct lookback contexts? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Thu Oct 30 10:16:59 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9U3Gvwe049495 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:16:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9U3DMY12884; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:13:23 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310281927.h9SJRsO6007345@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310281927.h9SJRsO6007345@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067483394.12264.65.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:17:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 30 Oct 2003 10:09:55 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:17:00 -0000 On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 02:27, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > if I understand it correctly, relaxng-based editors use validation algorithm as described > in the paper about Jing (based on derivatives) to offer first elements of the current > derivative as possible alternatives. > > However, for many practical cases, the set of valid elements at any given point is determined > by a small context of the point; for docbook, for example, it is one parent and one preceding > element for all cases. > > RELAX NG in general may require a wider context for this approach; due to its context-dependence. > Is there a known algorithm to build distinct lookback contexts? I don't know of one, but I've never looked. In nXML mode, I maintain state that allows me to incrementally compute validity. This state also allows me to determine the derivative at any point, without having to figure out what part of the context is relevant. There's a long comment at the beginning of the file rng-valid.el in the nXML mode distribution that explains my approach. James From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Oct 30 15:23:43 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9U8NdOs014183 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:23:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9U8KHgv016440 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:20:17 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9U8KGZE016439 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:20:16 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310300820.h9U8KGZE016439@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing In-Reply-To: <1067483394.12264.65.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:20:16 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:23:43 -0000 > > However, for many practical cases, the set of valid elements at any given point is determined > > by a small context of the point; for docbook, for example, it is one parent and one preceding > > element for all cases. > > > > RELAX NG in general may require a wider context for this approach; due to its context-dependence. > > Is there a known algorithm to build distinct lookback contexts? > > I don't know of one, but I've never looked. In nXML mode, I maintain > state that allows me to incrementally compute validity. This state also > allows me to determine the derivative at any point, without having to > figure out what part of the context is relevant. There's a long comment > at the beginning of the file rng-valid.el in the nXML mode distribution > that explains my approach. James, thank you. I had read the comment and the source code of nXML (an exciting experience indeed) before posting the comment. I am also familiar with a similar technique because it had been used in a pascal interpreter for secondary schools in early 90s (a demo with coloring of up-to-date areas was nice). The problem -- my problem -- is that I am writing a program that needs to know 1) not just the set of first elements in a pattern, but a set of all elements of particular kind (block-level text markup -- para, title, term, listitem) which do not have the opening tag of a preceding element in this pattern. <listitem> </itemizedlist> (<para>|<itemizedlist><listitem/>+</itemizedlist>) </section>* <section> <title> ... should bring '(listitem para title). This has roughly exponential time compared to the time to compute first elements. 2) other contexts where b indirectly follows a, to decide whether it is appropriate to offer to close a group and/or open a new one. This requires (or I just think so) analysis of the grammar, not just of the derivative. I tried to compute the things dynamically, but my algorithm was not fast enough to use interactively. I'll try again, or maybe it's just my slow notebook. Thank you again, David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Oct 30 15:28:05 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9U8S2Xb014662 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9U8Oegv016461 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:24:40 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9U8OeKc016460 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:24:40 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310300824.h9U8OeKc016460@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <3FA05C02.8090508@datalucid.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:24:40 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Block border/padding behaviour X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:28:06 -0000 > Setting margin-right='0pt' did create the effect I was after (although > produced some strange overlaps with borders on the next cell in my table). That's right. margin-end was a typo. > Also I'll have to check the difference between margin-end and > margin-right (or see whether it's just a processor implementation > difference). The difference is in the time zone, not between implementations; I was writing the answer at the end of the day. > (Having worked on the formatting of corporate reports for over 10 years > and XSL-FO for the last 18 months > I still find the XSL-FO specification over-complex in 'basic' areas > (e.g. margins) and deficient or unnatural in 'common' ones (e.g. > justification / leaders). > Maybe I'm trying to fit it to the wrong perceptual model.) > They are just different. (start-|end-)indent is zero, by default. It is turns to be convenient if accepts the idea that borders are drawn around text, not text is printed inside borders. For me, borders are decorations. What kind of problems do you have with justification/leaders, by the way? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Sun Nov 2 06:54:16 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA1NsErY005054 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:54:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hA1NoIU27046; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:50:19 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310300820.h9U8KGZE016439@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310300820.h9U8KGZE016439@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067730408.12264.297.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:54:16 -0000 X-Original-Date: 02 Nov 2003 06:46:48 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:54:16 -0000 On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 15:20, David Tolpin wrote: > The problem -- my problem -- is that I am writing a program that needs to know > > 1) not just the set of first elements in a pattern, but a set of > all elements of particular kind (block-level text markup -- para, > title, term, listitem) which do not have the opening tag of a > preceding element in this pattern. I don't understand what you mean by "have the opening tag of a preceding element in this pattern". > > <listitem> > </itemizedlist> > (<para>|<itemizedlist><listitem/>+</itemizedlist>) > </section>* > <section> > <title> > ... Is this a description of a content model or an instance or both? > should bring '(listitem para title). Why? > 2) other contexts where b indirectly follows a, to decide whether it is appropriate to > offer to close a group and/or open a new one. So you are currently in a chapter element, say, and you get a paragraph of text indicative of the start of a section and you need to decide whether to close the chapter before opening the section? Is that the problem? Why can't you do this on the basis of parent/child relationships i.e. leave the chapter open iff the chapter can contain a section? I don't think I'm going to be able to help without a lot more detail about the problem you're trying to solve. James From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 2 15:25:01 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA28OvZ7059164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:24:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA28LFgv037223 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:21:15 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA28LFPr037222 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:21:15 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311020821.hA28LFPr037222@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing In-Reply-To: <1067730408.12264.297.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:21:15 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 08:25:02 -0000 > > 1) not just the set of first elements in a pattern, but a set of > > all elements of particular kind (block-level text markup -- para, > > title, term, listitem) which do not have the opening tag of a > > preceding element in this pattern. > > I don't understand what you mean by "have the opening tag of a preceding > element in this pattern". In the derivative. In other words, any element that is the first block-level markup element following the current context is allowed. This is how text documents are normally entered, in my opinion. That is, one types the text, not the markup; if a new chapter should be started, one types its title. The editor then recognizes that it can be a title, offers to markup it as such (with other variants being para or term, for example) and adds structural markup between the previous paragraph and the current title as </section><section>, for example. I have a proof-of-concept implementation of this approach (http://davidashen.net/preti.html), which works for subsets of docbook, xhtml and DITA; however, the algorithm to determine structurally allowed elements and derive the group-level markup is ugly. Actually, writing a message helps understand the issue better; I am now feeling I roughly understand the algorithm I need, and, you are right indeed, it should be based on computing derivatives. > > <listitem> > > </itemizedlist> > > (<para>|<itemizedlist><listitem/>+</itemizedlist>) > > </section>* > > <section> > > <title> > > ... > > Is this a description of a content model or an instance or both? This is a description of a content model (I forgot asterisk after <listitem> - and sorry for the syntax, rnc would be more readable but I needed something that shows opening and closing tags separately); this is a derivative after a listitem is entered. > > > should bring '(listitem para title). > > Why? Because the user does not enter markup. It enters text and then confirms, alters or rejects tags which are offered by the program. > > > 2) other contexts where b indirectly follows a, to decide whether it is appropriate to > > offer to close a group and/or open a new one. > > So you are currently in a chapter element, say, and you get a paragraph > of text indicative of the start of a section and you need to decide > whether to close the chapter before opening the section? Is that the > problem? Why can't you do this on the basis of parent/child > relationships i.e. leave the chapter open iff the chapter can contain a > section? You are right; however, if I am inside a listitem and get a title, I need to close the item, the list, then open a new section (or chapter - the user decides). Whether I should close the current section is a question the user should answer, because sections can be nested. I see now that I can compute context based on derivatives. My problem with it is that it is more convenient for the user to first confirm opening of a new group, then to deal with closing current groups. <para/>.<title/>-> <para/>.<section><title/> -> <para/></section>.<section> -> .
But look like I can simply visit the nodes fro right to left, children first, to get this sequence for the elements to open. > > I don't think I'm going to be able to help without a lot more detail > about the problem you're trying to solve. > You are already helping, thank you. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Nov 4 02:47:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA3JlIoF020602 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 02:47:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA3JhRgv044631 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:43:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA3JhPSU044630 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:43:25 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311031943.hA3JhPSU044630@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:43:25 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] @name|name X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:47:23 -0000 Hi, If an element node has both ./@name and ./name, is it an error or are they combined? David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 4 02:56:21 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA3JuJeG022220 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 02:56:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144241AEA17; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:56:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] @name|name From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311031943.hA3JhPSU044630@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311031943.hA3JhPSU044630@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1067889377.5887.525.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:56:18 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:56:21 -0000 On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 20:43, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > If an element node has both ./@name and ./name, is it an error or are they combined? If you mean a pattern element, it's an error, but you can explicitly combine two name name classes through a "choice", for instance: <element> <choice> <name>foo</name> <name>bar</name> </choice> <empty/> </element> Eric -- Read me on XMLhack. http://xmlhack.com/author.php?id=8 Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Nov 5 21:13:17 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5EDCGd073111 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:13:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA5E99gv056576 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:09:09 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA5E95r6056575 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:09:05 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311051409.hA5E95r6056575@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:09:05 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] engTagDeriv X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:13:18 -0000 Hi, Am I right in assuming that if I add the element's name to the After pattern, and then compare it with the name of the closing tag, I can check for well-formedness during validation? That is, instead of maintaining a separate stack of open elements, I can keep the values in After patterns? Or am I missing something obvious? David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 6 03:25:09 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5KP6uS036813 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 03:25:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA5KL2gv058155 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:21:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA5KL1Ph058154 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:21:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311052021.hA5KL1Ph058154@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:21:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:25:11 -0000 Hi, is it legal to have <element name="x"> <text/> <attribute name="y"/> </element> ? From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Nov 6 04:36:14 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5LaE0i047620 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 04:36:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08586; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:31:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:31:54 -0500 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? Message-ID: <20031105213154.GK18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200311052021.hA5KL1Ph058154@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311052021.hA5KL1Ph058154@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:36:16 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > is it legal to have > > <element name="x"> > <text/> > <attribute name="y"/> > </element> Sure. Because attribute ordering doesn't matter in XML, RNG always treats attribute patterns in a group pattern (in this case, an implicit one) as if they were interleaved. Therefore, they can appear in any position when they are children of an element pattern. -- Using RELAX NG compact syntax to John Cowan develop schemas is one of the simple http://www.reutershealth.com pleasures in life.... http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Jeni Tennison <jcowan@reutershealth.com> From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 6 04:53:53 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5LroeX050138 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 04:53:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA5Lnjgv058635 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:49:45 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA5Lnj7M058634 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:49:45 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311052149.hA5Lnj7M058634@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? In-Reply-To: <20031105213154.GK18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:49:45 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:53:53 -0000 > > </element> > > Sure. Because attribute ordering doesn't matter in XML, RNG always treats > attribute patterns in a group pattern (in this case, an implicit one) > as if they were interleaved. Therefore, they can appear in any position > when they are children of an element pattern. Thank you, I realized it shortly after asking, I'm sorry for the noise. I mean, not the attributes' ordering, but the correct way to compute the derivative. Does <attribute name="x"><empty/></attribute> match an attribute value consisting only of whitespace? David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Nov 6 05:14:13 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5MEDlt053341 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 05:14:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09164; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:21 -0500 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? Message-ID: <20031105221021.GP18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20031105213154.GK18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200311052149.hA5Lnj7M058634@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311052149.hA5Lnj7M058634@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:14:13 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > Does <attribute name="x"><empty/></attribute> match an attribute value consisting > only of whitespace? Yes. The only time whitespace is not ignored is in data or value patterns where the datatype preserves it, which in practice is only in string and xsd:string. -- All Gaul is divided into three parts: the part John Cowan that cooks with lard and goose fat, the part www.ccil.org/~cowan that cooks with olive oil, and the part that www.reutershealth.com cooks with butter. -- David Chessler jcowan@reutershealth.com From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Nov 7 06:40:24 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA6NeK0b068067 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 06:40:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA6Na8gv064177 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:36:08 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA6Na20L064176 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:36:02 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311062336.hA6Na20L064176@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:36:02 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] reversed derivative? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:40:25 -0000 Hi, I am implementing an authoring tool for structured documents. The key feature of this tool is that the user enters just text, consisting of paragraphs. The editor offers feasible tags for the paragraphs, based on the structural features of the paragraph and on the context, and then offers alternative tag sequences between the current and the previous paragraph. That is, for grammar start = element book { title, chapter* } title = element title { text } section = element section { title, block* } chapter = element chapter { title, block*, section* } block = element para { text } | element list { element item { text }+ } - if something looking as a <title> is entered inside a <list>, and if user confirms that it is indeed a <title>, - the <list> will be closed, a new <section> or <chapter> will be opened - optionally, the current <section> (and <chapter>) will be closed. A preliminary version was implemented and appears to be useful. However, the algorithms used are not appropriate for unrestricted grammars. I have been able to re-implement the algorithms using the validation algorithm as described at http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/derivative.html, with obvious extensions needed to compute all possible paths between the current and the previous paragraphs. However, the straightforward extension requires that decisions are made in the document order, that is, first elements are closed, then opened top-down. It appears to be more convenient and natural, however (the previous version had an option which allowed to choose the order) to - first open new group tags, bottom-up (that is, term->varlistentry->variablelist) - then offer to close, again bottom-up currently open tags which can optionally be closed. (open elements which are to be closed in all alternatives are closed as soon as possible). I would be grateful for a hint or a pointer to a source which can help me implement this behaviour. I am trying to build the ascending parts suitable for reverse reduction by traversing the schema from right to left and precomputing the derivatives for all block-level elements, but am not sure that I am moving in the right direction. Sincerely, David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com Fri Nov 7 09:08:23 2003 Received: from cutter.rexx.com (root@ias-207-167-89-8.icg.znet.net [207.167.89.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA728MX5088761 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:08:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from dkuhlman@localhost) by cutter.rexx.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id hA728GR90106 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkuhlman) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:08:16 -0800 From: Dave Kuhlman <dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Subject: [relaxng-user] Python support for RELAX NG? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:08:24 -0000 Is there someplace I can look for Python support for RELAX NG? I searched the RELAX NG email list archives and also did a Web search. I've found A.M. Kuchling's parser for the XML syntax, and I'm looking into that. I've written quite a bit of a parser for the compact syntax. I'm using PLY to build the parser: http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/. I'd like to know if it's already been done before continuing. Dave -- Dave Kuhlman dkuhlman@rexx.com http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman From amk@amk.ca Fri Nov 7 09:18:07 2003 Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail8.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.208]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA72I6ij090213 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:18:06 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 26466 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 02:18:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rogue.amk.ca) ([66.92.163.165]) (envelope-sender <amk@amk.ca>) by mail8.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-SHA encrypted SMTP for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; 7 Nov 2003 02:18:05 -0000 Received: from amk by rogue.amk.ca with local (Exim 4.24) id 1AHwC8-0003TR-Al for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 21:17:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:17:52 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Python support for RELAX NG? Message-ID: <20031107021752.GB13333@rogue.amk.ca> Mail-Followup-To: amk@amk.ca, relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: "A.M. Kuchling" <amk@amk.ca> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: amk@amk.ca List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:18:07 -0000 On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 06:08:16PM -0800, Dave Kuhlman wrote: > Is there someplace I can look for Python support for RELAX NG? I have a page of rough notes at http://www.amk.ca/notes/rng.html . libxml2 (www.xmlsoft.org) includes a RELAX NG validator and comes with Python bindings. > I've written quite a bit of a parser for the compact syntax. I'm > using PLY to build the parser: http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/. > I'd like to know if it's already been done before continuing. David Mertz has a Python script that's supposed to translate from RNC to RNG, but when I tried it on the RELAX NG schema, it crashed. There's a link to it from my notes. --amk From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu Nov 13 22:43:13 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hADFh7jK026994 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:43:13 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: VRKZS7hOzHFO2M/4KgrV7g 1068738179 Received: from [134.53.28.175] (u175.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.175]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D94D40472C for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:42:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <14E1063A-15F0-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:43:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] customization layers in rnc? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:43:14 -0000 Can someone please help me understand how to implement the following customization layer for the DocBook DTD in RNC? Simply running Trang on it gets me the following error: dbcitx.dtd:21:67: fatal: syntax error Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- <!-- This is a customization layer for DocBook XML 4.1.2 which implements RFE 810932 - improved citation support --> <!ENTITY % citation.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % citation.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % citation.attlist "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % blockquote.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % blockquote.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % blockquote.attlist "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % quote.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % quote.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % quote.attlist "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % epigraph.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % epigraph.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % epigraph.attlist "IGNORE"> <!-- load original DocBook stuff --> <!ENTITY % DocBookDTD PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN"> %DocBookDTD; <!-- extend the citation element. we add two attributes: renderas (select the processing expectations) caption (provide additional text) we add one element: Biblioref (extended bibliographic data) --> <!ENTITY % local.citation.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % citation.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT biblioref - - EMPTY> <!ATTLIST biblioref linkend IDREF #IMPLIED endterm IDREF #IMPLIED unit NMTOKEN #IMPLIED start NMTOKEN #IMPLIED stop NMTOKEN #IMPLIED > <!ELEMENT citation - - ((%para.char.mix;|biblioref)+)> <!ATTLIST citation %common.attrib; %citation.role.attrib; %local.citation.attrib; renderas (full|author|year|title) "full" caption CDATA #IMPLIED > <!-- done with the citation element --> <!-- extend the blockquote element --> <!ENTITY % local.blockquote.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % blockquote.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT blockquote - - (title?, attribution?, (%component.mix;)+, biblioref?)> <!ATTLIST blockquote %common.attrib; %blockquote.role.attrib; %local.blockquote.attrib; > <!-- done with blockquote --> <!-- extend the quote element --> <!ENTITY % local.quote.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % quote.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT quote - - ((%para.char.mix;)+, biblioref?)> <!ATTLIST quote %common.attrib; %quote.role.attrib; %local.quote.attrib; > <!-- done with quote --> <!-- extend the epigraph element --> <!ENTITY % local.epigraph.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % epigraph.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT epigraph - - (attribution?, (%para.class;)+, biblioref?)> <!ATTLIST epigraph %common.attrib; %epigraph.role.attrib; %local.epigraph.attrib; > <!-- done with epigraph --> From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 16 00:08:01 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAFH7q1N015472 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:08:01 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: 696kUw7wAVHJog3ABbrM8g 1068916063 Received: from [134.53.28.204] (u204.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA17412676 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:07:42 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <42E65845-178E-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:07:58 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] customization layer in relax ng? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:08:02 -0000 Regarding previous post on customization layer in rnc, I think I've gotten most of the way to implementing it, but I'm now stuck. I think I'm just unclear about where to put the damned curly-brackets when redefining elements. Help, please. Bruce ================================================ include "docbook.rnc" biblioref = element biblioref { biblioref.attlist } biblioref.attlist &= attribute linkend { xsd:IDREF }, attribute endterm { xsd:IDREF }, attribute unit { xsd:token }, attribute start {xsd:token }, attribute stop { xsd:token } citation = para.char.mix*, biblioref*, citation.attlist citation.attlist &= common.attrib, citation.role.attrib, local.citation.attrib, attribute renderas { "full" | "author" | "year" | "title" }?, attribute caption { text }? } # done with the citation element # extend the blockquote element local.blockquote.attrib = blockquote.role.attrib blockquote.role.attrib = role.attrib blockquote = title?, attribution?, component.mix+, biblioref?, blockquote.attlist blockquote.attlist &= common.attrib, blockquote.role.attrib, local.blockquote.attrib # done with blockquote From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Fri Nov 21 05:27:19 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAKMREUB016479 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:27:19 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: nZVQE75SBfpZPhjq7VWJmA 1069367224 Received: from fastmail.fm (unknown [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384BB437705 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:27:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:27:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <A8B783F2-1BA8-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [relaxng-user] combining schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:27:21 -0000 I'm interested in experimenting with mixing docbook with a separate namespaced metadata schema, but I seem to be stuck with a "duplicate definition of start" error that I don't know how to get rid of. Basically I want an instance like so: <document> <meta> <mods:name/> <mods:titleInfo/> </meta> <content> <section> <title>Introduction blah, blah, blah
You could imagine Dublin Core in place of MODS. Here's what I have at the moment: =============================== start = document include "docbook.rnc" include "mods3.rnc" document = element document { meta, content } meta = ModsSchema content = { "article" | "book" | "chapter" } =============================== What am I doing wrong?? Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Nov 21 05:47:01 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAKMkxJU019201 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:47:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388E8BC54; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:46:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: "Bruce D'Arcus" In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:46:53 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:47:00 -0000 Hi, On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 23:27, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > Here's what I have at the moment: > =============================== > start = document > include "docbook.rnc" > include "mods3.rnc" > document = element document { meta, content } > meta = ModsSchema > content = { "article" | "book" | "chapter" } > =============================== > > What am I doing wrong?? If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content with a new one. Since here you want to replace its definition, the only option left is to redefine it: include "docbook.rnc" { start = document } include "mods3.rnc" document = element document { meta, content } meta = ModsSchema content = { "article" | "book" | "chapter" } BTW, this last pattern means that content is a value equal to "article", "book" or "chapter". This is illegal to include that after "meta" if it's an element and, in any case, probably not what you mean. What about: content = { article | book | chapter } ??? Hope that helps. Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://masl.to/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com Fri Nov 21 07:33:33 2003 Received: from cutter.rexx.com (root@ias-207-167-89-8.icg.znet.net [207.167.89.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAL0XWkS034094 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:33:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from dkuhlman@localhost) by cutter.rexx.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id hAL0XQl56335 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkuhlman) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:33:26 -0800 From: Dave Kuhlman To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20031120163326.A56261@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Subject: [relaxng-user] Python parser for RELAX NG compact syntax X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:33:34 -0000 I've implemented (most of) a parser in Python for the RELAX NG compact syntax. It's written in Python and uses PLY (yet another implementation of lex and yacc for Python). The parser produces a parse tree whose nodes are instances of a class ASTNode, which is defined in the parser module. It's recognizes most but *not* all of the compact syntax, but, hopefully, recognizes enough to make it useful, and can be extended when necessary. You can find documentation on the parser here: http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman/relaxngcompact.html And, you can find a distribution file here: http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman/relaxngcompact-1.0a.tar.gz If I can be of help with this, please let me know. Dave -- Dave Kuhlman dkuhlman@rexx.com http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Fri Nov 21 22:45:20 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hALFjJoJ053899 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:45:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hALFdFvC014847 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:39:15 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hALFiwd7007270 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:45:07 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:44:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:44:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:45:22 -0000 I've written a paper for XML 2003 on a technique for dual use of DTDs and RNG schemas suggested by James on the nxml list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/129). I've posted the paper at http://www.snee.com/bob/temp/06-04-05.html, and would love to hear suggestions from anyone who has a chance to read it in the next few days. One question I have in particular is whether "add-on schema," as I've termed it, is the most appropriate name for a schema that specifies constraints to be used in conjunction with a DTD, or if another term makes more sense, such as "auxiliary schema." Writing this was a bit of a milestone for me: I downloaded the conference paper DTD, converted it to RNC, and wrote the paper using Emacs and nxml without ever looking at the DTD or RNC files. (The acronym "RNC," by the way, has odd associations for people in the United States, because it usually refers to the "Republican National Committee," the group that runs George Bush's political party.) thanks, Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Fri Nov 21 23:47:07 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hALGl7F6064900 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 23:47:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hALGl6cm006521 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HOP000VONYHU2@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] ([129.152.201.157]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HOP007I0NYG3W@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:47:05 -0800 From: kk@kohsuke.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas In-reply-to: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20031121084702.DBB6.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:47:08 -0000 > BTW, this last pattern means that content is a value equal to "article", > "book" or "chapter". This is illegal to include that after "meta" if > it's an element Why? > and, in any case, probably not what you mean. What about: regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From jjc@jclark.com Sat Nov 22 08:50:18 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAM1oF69047591 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:50:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.148] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAM1nu518424; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:49:58 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper From: James Clark To: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1069465573.1410.36.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:46:13 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:50:19 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-21 at 22:44, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > I've written a paper for XML 2003 on a technique for dual use of DTDs and > RNG schemas suggested by James on the nxml list > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/129). I've posted the > paper at http://www.snee.com/bob/temp/06-04-05.html, and would love to hear > suggestions from anyone who has a chance to read it in the next few days. A few comments: 1. You suggest doing RNG validation in addition to DTD validation. So long as you do RNG DTD-compatibility checking, RNG validation alone is enough (although I can well imaging non-technical reasons for doing DTD validation). 2. With DTD validation, you can only check that the document is valid with respect to the DTD that the document specifies. In many cases, even in a DTD-based environment, there is a requirement that the document use a specific DTD, but DTD validation provides no way to enforce this. RNG validation helps with this too. 3. Apropos using these techniques with W3C XML Schema, if you use Trang to convert from DTD to XSD, then your parameter entities will be preserved, at least to some degree. 4. You say: > To do this, however, the conversion utility parsing the DTD must know > whether each parameter entity declares a piece of a content model or > an attribute list, but to a DTD parser they're all just strings. Although in an a DTD to RNG conversion Trang converts parameter entities only to definitions, it can't do this unless it can figure out what kind of thing the parameter entity is representing. This is what makes preserving parameter entities so hard: to a DTD parser they are all indeed just strings, but you need to know more than this to do any kind of conversion, whether to RNG or XSD. (What Trang does approximately is to expand the parameter entities, keeping track of which parameter entities each character in the result comes from, then parse, then unexpand those parameter entities that correspond consistently to some syntactic unit.) James From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sat Nov 22 10:00:43 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAM30gXZ056777 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:00:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ANO0d-0001S8-00; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:00:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:00:31 -0500 To: James Clark Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031122030031.GE26171@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1069465573.1410.36.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1069465573.1410.36.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:00:43 -0000 James Clark scripsit: > 1. You suggest doing RNG validation in addition to DTD validation. So > long as you do RNG DTD-compatibility checking, RNG validation alone is > enough (although I can well imaging non-technical reasons for doing DTD > validation). > > 2. With DTD validation, you can only check that the document is valid > with respect to the DTD that the document specifies. In many cases, > even in a DTD-based environment, there is a requirement that the > document use a specific DTD, but DTD validation provides no way to > enforce this. RNG validation helps with this too. Since DTDs can be used as validation schemas, the true division is between an incorporated DTD and a validation schema rather than between DTD validation and RNG/WXS validation. -- Is a chair finely made tragic or comic? Is the John Cowan portrait of Mona Lisa good if I desire to see jcowan@reutershealth.com it? Is the bust of Sir Philip Crampton lyrical, www.ccil.org/~cowan epical or dramatic? If a man hacking in fury www.reutershealth.com at a block of wood make there an image of a cow, is that image a work of art? If not, why not? --Stephen Dedalus From mamiano@nc.rr.com Sat Nov 22 21:05:54 2003 Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.102]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAME5sdS033923 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:05:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from nc.rr.com (rdu26-47-081.nc.rr.com [66.26.47.81]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id hAME5rFm001267 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:05:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3FBF6D2A.1030807@nc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:05:30 -0500 From: Mitch Amiano User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031008 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <200311220500.hAM504ee071496@thaiopensource.com> In-Reply-To: <200311220500.hAM504ee071496@thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: mamiano@nc.rr.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:05:56 -0000 "Auxiliary" is suggestive of a subordinated role. Ditto for "add-on", which sounds like a band-aid(tm). "Adjunct" sounds a litle more academic, but is also a discounting term. You might consider the goals your technique addresses... the value of the role proposed for the relaxng schemas in the use-case. How about "migration schema" (schemas used in migrating from one validation workflow to another), "refinement schema" (schemas which refine the precision with which an existing workflow can perform validation), or "articulation schema" (schemas which provide controlled jointing between other schemas, addressing different validation goals). relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:44:55 -0500 > From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" > Subject: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX > NG schemas" paper > To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > I've written a paper /snip/ > One question I have in particular is whether "add-on schema," as I've termed > it, is the most appropriate name for a schema that specifies constraints to > be used in conjunction with a DTD, or if another term makes more sense, such > as "auxiliary schema." From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 23 23:42:27 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hANGgRiE004142 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:42:27 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: s5/75EKMrBB1PmFNHNwWJw 1069605739 Received: from [134.53.28.173] (u173.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.173]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F1243DA93 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:42:19 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> References: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <113E7B89-1DD4-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:42:46 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:42:28 -0000 On Nov 20, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >> What am I doing wrong?? > > If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the > start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content > with a new one. Thanks for this Eric. I was able to get it working ultimately. I'm now stuck with the same duplicate start problem in another circumstance. The mods schema has an extension element that allows one to embed content from other namespaced schema. I have create simple schema called bibio-notes, which I want to use to add marked up annotations to the record. I assumed the following would work, but I am getting the duplicate start error from nxml mode. The start pattern for mods is: start = ModsSchema. Here's my schema: include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } Once again: what am I missing? Also, do I need to do something special to get the namespace for biblio-notes attached to the extension element in mods for validation? Bruce From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Mon Nov 24 21:00:44 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAOE0hXu059701 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:00:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAOE0M003822 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:27 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:17 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E1FFF@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: [relaxng-user] Pattern. X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:44 -0000 I'm trying to find a pattern for the en-us attribute. If I pull the list of langs from iso 639 and 3166, How can I specify a pattern using en fr ... ditto for country codes. I.e. what is the contents of ???? Trying - Seems wrong via jing/nxml-mode Regards DaveP. **** snip here ***** - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. 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RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Nov 25 01:24:13 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAOIODbh003203 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:24:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAOIHDvC019160; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:17:14 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAOINtd7007871; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:59 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: "'James Clark'" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:24:17 -0000 James, Thanks very much for the review. (And thanks to everyone else who looked it over.) >1. You suggest doing RNG validation in addition to DTD validation. So >long as you do RNG DTD-compatibility checking, RNG validation alone is >enough (although I can well imaging non-technical reasons for doing DTD >validation). Thanks, good point. I was thinking about the continued use of the DTD as before, which usually means in conjunction with some app that uses DTDs for validation and more, such as an editor. I will make this clearer. >2. With DTD validation, you can only check that the document is valid >with respect to the DTD that the document specifies. In many cases, >even in a DTD-based environment, there is a requirement that the >document use a specific DTD, but DTD validation provides no way to >enforce this. RNG validation helps with this too. I'm not sure what you mean here--I thought part of the RNG philosophy was to avoid hard-coding a link between a document and a schema. Can you give me an example? >3. Apropos using these techniques with W3C XML Schema, if you use Trang >to convert from DTD to XSD, then your parameter entities will be >preserved, at least to some degree. I see now that when converting the first example in my article, it does declare and reference a name.content type, but not a quantity.type one. >(What Trang does approximately is >to expand the parameter entities, keeping track of which parameter >entities each character in the result comes from, then parse, then >unexpand those parameter entities that correspond consistently to some >syntactic unit.) Well, we certainly have to thank you for going to the trouble, when according to my research no one else really has! Bob From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 01:54:41 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAOIsfBF008346 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:54:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOLkh-00007S-00; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:48:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:48:03 -0500 To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Pattern. Message-ID: <20031124184803.GG28930@mercury.ccil.org> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E1FFF@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E1FFF@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:54:43 -0000 David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk scripsit: > I'm trying to find a pattern for the en-us attribute. What you are trying to do is not possible. You need to use a WXS pattern instead. > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > The list pattern can only cope with whitespace-separated items, not with arbitrary concatenations. In any case, the RFC 3066 language codes are an open set. You should either accept any arbitrary string of ASCII alphas, digits, and hyphen (you can rule out initial, final, and consecutive hyphens if you like), or else a fixed set of values that your application understands. -- One art / There is John Cowan No less / No more http://www.reutershealth.com All things / To do http://www.ccil.org/~cowan With sparks / Galore -- Douglas Hofstadter From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 25 15:14:14 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP8EDcR025419 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:14:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAP8Dq001562 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:13:57 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:13:46 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:13:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:14:16 -0000 Bob, I'm being faced in two cases with an XSD | Relax NG as master problem. I'm convinced its not a technical decision (almost certainly in one case) but more of a political one. A perception that the majority are using W3C XSD, hence we should, or MS use it, it must be right. I recall James spoke at one time of the two schema's together, but I don't have a url. Has anyone collated a comparison to help people choosing between the two? What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? regards DaveP. - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 25 15:17:30 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP8HTpo025816 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:17:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAP8Gq001640; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:16:57 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:16:46 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2005@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: cowan@mercury.ccil.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Pattern. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:16:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:17:30 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan What you are trying to do is not possible. You need to use a WXS pattern instead. The list pattern can only cope with whitespace-separated items, not with arbitrary concatenations. Mmm. OK. Thanks John. That answers a question I had on dates as dd/mm/yyyy. Worked with spaces, not without. In any case, the RFC 3066 language codes are an open set. You should either accept any arbitrary string of ASCII alphas, digits, and hyphen (you can rule out initial, final, and consecutive hyphens if you like), or else a fixed set of values that your application understands. Will do. Many thanks. regards DaveP. - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From veillard@redhat.com Tue Nov 25 16:04:41 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP94fST032150 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:04:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAP94NDl025279; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAP94NmS025277; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:04:41 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 08:13:46AM -0000, David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk wrote: > Bob, I'm being faced in two cases with an XSD | Relax NG as master problem. > I'm convinced its not a technical decision (almost certainly in one case) > but > more of a political one. A perception that the majority are using W3C XSD, > hence we should, or MS use it, it must be right. > > I recall James spoke at one time of the two schema's together, but I don't > > have a url. Well there is the relatively harsh (but fair at the time) comparison he posted on the ietf-xml-use mailing list http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-use/mail-archive/msg00217.html Though the XML Schemas implementation have improved since, still a lot of the argumentation still makes a lot of sense from a technical viewpoint IMHO. > Has anyone collated a comparison to help people choosing between > the two? What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using > relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? Since it's far far easier to validate the semantic of a Relax-NG Schemas it seems to me that doing the opposite way (i.e. having the Relax-NG master and relying on automatic generation for the XSD) is more likely to garantee the semantic of both schemas, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Nov 25 16:15:16 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP9FCAS033778 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:15:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAP9EO3j007310 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:14:24 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAP9EOvG007309 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:14:24 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311250914.hAP9EOvG007309@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:14:24 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Hi, do I understand it correctly that while #xA terminates a comment and is a whitespace in the compact syntax, #xD does not and is not? David Tolpin From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 25 17:05:42 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPA5gRb040552 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:05:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAPA4v007480; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:05:03 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:04:52 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E200A@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: veillard@redhat.com, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:04:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:05:43 -0000 Daniel said: Well there is the relatively harsh (but fair at the time) comparison he posted on the ietf-xml-use mailing list http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-use/mail-archive/msg00217.html thanks Daniel. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002Jun/0119.html also. Since it's far far easier to validate the semantic of a Relax-NG Schemas it seems to me that doing the opposite way (i.e. having the Relax-NG master and relying on automatic generation for the XSD) is more likely to garantee the semantic of both schemas, I'd agree. I'm less sure that I can persuade a bean counter who has heard of the words though :-) Remember that phrase, you never get the sack for buying big blue? regards DaveP - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 25 17:51:57 2003 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hAPApu7c046302 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:51:57 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1069757514!2039529 X-StarScan-Version: 5.1.13; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 9510 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: from smtp-6.star.net.uk (212.125.75.75) by server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 18891 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-6.star.net.uk with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23873 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:51:47 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:38 GMT Message-Id: <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id KAA21006; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:38 GMT From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> (message from Daniel Veillard on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:51:58 -0000 Daniel Since it's far far easier to validate the semantic of a Relax-NG Schemas it seems to me that doing the opposite way (i.e. having the Relax-NG master and relying on automatic generation for the XSD) is more likely to garantee the semantic of both schemas, That's what we're doing in the OpenMath 2 specification (http://www.openmath.org/standard/om20) Writing the schema (in rnc) and deriving rng, xsd and dtd as needed. There is though a question that has come up with regards choosing a normative format. In practice the schema is authored in the compact syntax. I have been arguing that that is the one that should be normative (and in the body of the OpenMath specification) as it is a) readable and b) the actual source. However some have argued that the RNG XML syntax should be the normative version as it is more standard (in particular further down the ISO standardisation tracks). What is the current feeling amongst Relax MG practitioners, is it OK to use the compact syntax as a normative specification of a grammar? David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 19:25:54 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPCPsOL057545 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:25:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOcGO-0005Ot-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:25:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:25:52 -0500 To: David Carlisle Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031125122552.GB18123@mercury.ccil.org> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:25:54 -0000 David Carlisle scripsit: > What is the current feeling amongst Relax MG practitioners, is it OK to use > the compact syntax as a normative specification of a grammar? Absolutely. What is more, since you actually use it to write the grammar, it should be normative for that reason, so that if there is any (all too easy!) screwup in keeping the XML version up to date, it won't bite you in the ass. FWIW, the XHTML 2 draft makes the RNG, WXS, and DTD versions all normative, though currently only the RNG is supplied. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him. From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 19:28:41 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPCSeZR057846 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:28:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOcCk-0005KB-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0500 To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031125122206.GA18123@mercury.ccil.org> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:28:41 -0000 David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk scripsit: > What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using > relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? The chief objection is that Trang can't do that: it doesn't accept XML Schemas as input. -- If you understand, John Cowan things are just as they are; http://www.ccil.org/~cowan if you do not understand, http://www.reutershealth.com things are just as they are. jcowan@reutershealth.com From tbray@textuality.com Tue Nov 25 19:29:13 2003 Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPCTCQe057934 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:29:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63B01033B; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:25:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6C4BA470-1F42-11D8-BE4C-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:25:15 -0800 To: David Carlisle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:29:13 -0000 On Nov 25, 2003, at 2:49 AM, David Carlisle wrote: > What is the current feeling amongst Relax MG practitioners, is it OK > to use > the compact syntax as a normative specification of a grammar? For Atom, I think we're going to use RNC as the "official" schema; we may end up also having an official .xsd because the trang-generated version is kinda hideous. Nothing wrong with trang, just the usual XSD broken-ness. -Tim From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 25 19:39:50 2003 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hAPCdmgj059116 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:39:49 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1069763980!2045050 X-StarScan-Version: 5.1.13; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 10344 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: from smtp-3.star.net.uk (212.125.75.72) by server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 19712 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-3.star.net.uk with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26264 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:39:32 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:36:48 GMT Message-Id: <200311251236.MAA22114@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id MAA22114; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:36:48 GMT From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <20031125122206.GA18123@mercury.ccil.org> (message from John Cowan on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0500) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125122206.GA18123@mercury.ccil.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:39:50 -0000 >> What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using >> relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? > >The chief objection is that Trang can't do that: it doesn't accept >XML Schemas as input. The other objection, even if trang (or some other system) could read xsd, is that if xsd is the master then can't express many of the constraints that you want to express. Especially (in my case) constraints on attributes where XSD is no better than DTD, just harder to read, but Relax NG can constrain attributes in pretty much the same way as elements. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Nov 25 22:49:13 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPFnC1V087355 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:49:13 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: k5xlBQyVW5TJCHR38+QcIQ 1069775346 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B081F442A8C for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <113E7B89-1DD4-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:49:17 -0000 Sorry to post this again, but I really need an answer to this question, and the documentation I've found isn't helping me (more a function of my limitations than that of the documentation I'm sure!). Anyone? On Nov 20, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >> What am I doing wrong?? > > If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the > start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content > with a new one. Thanks for this Eric. I was able to get it working ultimately. I'm now stuck with the same duplicate start problem in another circumstance. The mods schema has an extension element that allows one to embed content from other namespaced schema. I have create simple schema called bibio-notes, which I want to use to add marked up annotations to the record. I assumed the following would work, but I am getting the duplicate start error from nxml mode. The start pattern for mods is: start = ModsSchema. Here's my schema: =============================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } =============================== Once again: what am I missing? Also, do I need to do something special to get the namespace for biblio-notes attached to the extension element in mods for validation? In other words, a simple instance would look like: content wrapped in the foreign schema tags Bruce From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 23:11:26 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGBQKk091734 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:11:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOfmb-0004EE-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:11:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:11:14 -0500 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> References: <113E7B89-1DD4-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:11:26 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus scripsit: > Once again: what am I missing? Without all your schemas, there's no hope of figuring it out. -- John Cowan http://www.reutershealth.com "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless. For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him." From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Nov 25 23:22:19 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGMJOj093761 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:22:19 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: xru7dOQkm6/h+hq74QqSbg 1069777337 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B886343E433 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:22:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:22:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> Message-Id: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:22:20 -0000 On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 11:11 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Without all your schemas, there's no hope of figuring it out. Ok, I've placed them here: http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/biblio-notes.rnc http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods3.rnc The latter schema was converted from XML Schema* with the Sun conversion tool. I had to tweak the resulting RNG schema a bit to get it to work. Here's the current combined-schema-that-doesn't-work, which I am calling mods-bn.rnc: =============================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } =============================== Thanks, Bruce * Original schema is at http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-oct-9.xsd From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 25 23:29:02 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGT1gf094783 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:29:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6000BC52; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:28:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: "Bruce D'Arcus" In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069777739.1108.169.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:28:59 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:29:02 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 16:49, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > Sorry to post this again, but I really need an answer to this question, > and the documentation I've found isn't helping me (more a function of > my limitations than that of the documentation I'm sure!). Anyone? Yep. Sorry for the delay, but I am really overloaded... > > On Nov 20, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > > >> What am I doing wrong?? > > > > If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the > > start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content > > with a new one. > > Thanks for this Eric. I was able to get it working ultimately. > > I'm now stuck with the same duplicate start problem in another > circumstance. > > The mods schema has an extension element that allows one to embed > content from other namespaced schema. I have create simple schema > called bibio-notes, which I want to use to add marked up annotations to > the record. > > I assumed the following would work, but I am getting the duplicate > start error from nxml mode. The start pattern for mods is: > > start = ModsSchema. > > Here's my schema: > > =============================== > > include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } You have now a conflict between the start element redefined in your first include and a start element defined in your second include. How to solve this depends on your actual schemas and on what you're trying to achieve. I have tried to explain the different mechanisms in my book: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/RngBookBuildingBlocks.html but can't give any advise without have a better idea of what's in your schemas. Eric -- Did you know it? Python has now a Relax NG (partial) implementation. http://advogato.org/proj/xvif/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Nov 25 23:36:08 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGa8EV095898 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:36:08 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: U+rSv0kXnzL/+ePCJTtCuw 1069778166 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C80443A66 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:36:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1069777739.1108.169.camel@delleric> Message-Id: <75BE99EC-1F65-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:36:08 -0000 On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > You have now a conflict between the start element redefined in your > first include and a start element defined in your second include. I had originally redefined the start pattern for biblio-notes as ModsSchema, but got the same error. > How to solve this depends on your actual schemas and on what you're > trying to achieve. See my other message for links to the schemas. > I have tried to explain the different mechanisms in my book. Your book has been really helpful to me; thanks for making it available! However, even after reading it, I can't quite wrap my head around this issue. Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 25 23:37:36 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGbTMQ096114 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:37:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BCBBC52; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:36:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: "Bruce D'Arcus" In-Reply-To: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> References: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:37:23 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:37:36 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 17:22, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/biblio-notes.rnc > http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods3.rnc > > > =============================== > > include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } Hmm.... >From what I understand, you want to have a start element equal to "ModsSchema". The simplest solution is to remove the definition of the start pattern in biblio-notes.rnc and just write: ============================================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } ============================================== If for any reason, you wanted to leave the definition of the start pattern in biblio-notes.rnc, you could replace this by: ============================================== include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { external "biblio-notes.rnc" }* } ============================================== Hope this helps. Eric -- Rendez vous a Paris pour le Forum XML. http://www.technoforum.fr/integ2003/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Wed Nov 26 00:02:49 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPH2mUr001152 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:02:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOgaP-0005yP-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:02:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:02:49 -0500 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:02:50 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus scripsit: > include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } Well, to begin with you are trying to override a rule named "extension", but there is no such rule in mods.rnc, so you have to refactor it so you have such a rule. While you're at it, how about removing all that "notAllowed | foo" cruft in favor of just "foo"? Your other problem is fundamental: you are importing the definition of start from two different places, and you can't override both of them at the same time. This is a deficiency in RNG: the obvious workaround is to remove the start definition from biblio-notes.rnc. (Committee members, perhaps there needs to be a way to delete a rule at include time?) > * Original schema is at > http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-oct-9.xsd This gets a 404. -- All Norstrilians knew what laughter was: John Cowan it was "pleasurable corrigible malfunction". http://www.reutershealth.com --Cordwainer Smith, _Norstrilia_ jcowan@reutershealth.com From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 00:12:59 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHCoF0002922 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:12:59 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: KPTStPAr3OBJHamsDP8Tjw 1069780368 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF094444FE for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:12:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:12:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> Message-Id: <958A527C-1F6A-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:13:00 -0000 On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 12:02 PM, John Cowan wrote: > While you're at it, how about removing all that "notAllowed | foo" > cruft in favor of just "foo"? I'm happy to spend a bit of time cleaning this up, as I'd really like to have a RNG version of the schema available that others can work with. The Library of Congress, however, develops in XML Schema, and so the version I posted is (not very elegantly) machine converted. I didn't have the time (or skill) to rebuild it in Relax NG myself! What might the function of the ""notAllowed | foo' cruft"? And any other suggestions? >> * Original schema is at >> http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-oct-9.xsd > > This gets a 404. Seems they switched to a newer version without updating the link. Here's the correct url: http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-nov-24.xsd Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 00:15:46 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHFb8d003349 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:15:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759B4BC52; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:15:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:15:32 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:15:46 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 18:02, John Cowan wrote: > > (Committee members, perhaps there needs to be a way to delete a rule at > include time?) I think that this is already possible. Consider: inc1.rnc +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ start = element foo{empty} +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ inc2.rnc +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ start = element bar{empty} +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you want to include inc1.rnc and keep only the definition of the start element in inc2.rnc, you can write: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ include "inc1.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } include "inc2.rnc" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Wed Nov 26 00:33:28 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHXSdS006103 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:33:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOh42-0006vF-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:33:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:33:26 -0500 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125173326.GA26214@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:33:31 -0000 Eric van der Vlist scripsit: > If you want to include inc1.rnc and keep only the definition of the > start element in inc2.rnc, you can write: > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > include "inc1.rnc" { > start |= notAllowed > } > include "inc2.rnc" > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Very clever. This should go in a FAQ somewhere. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves." --Murray Gell-Mann From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Nov 26 00:59:38 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHxbB5010195 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:59:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D250F2FB820; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:59:10 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031125175743.025aa998@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:59:36 +0000 To: John Cowan , Eric van der Vlist From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas In-Reply-To: <20031125173326.GA26214@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> <20031125173326.GA26214@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:59:39 -0000 At 17:33 25/11/2003, John Cowan wrote: >Very clever. This should go in a FAQ somewhere. I've started one. Mainly based around patterns.... I.e. Eric's book. http://www.dpawson.co.uk/relaxng/index.html Input...or explained questions, appreciated. I'll publish it more widely when there is more content. regards DaveP From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 01:02:40 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPI2eZI010997 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:02:40 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: g8VVNGk+WMSyWouhH2trKA 1069783358 Received: from fastmail.fm (unknown [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACF54443BC for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:02:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:02:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> Message-Id: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:02:40 -0000 OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options anywhere! I've commented out the start pattern for biblio-notes, and modified the mods schema to have the necessary named pattern for extension, which I've reposted here: http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods3.rnc Bruce On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 11:37 AM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > The simplest solution is to remove the definition of the start pattern > in biblio-notes.rnc and just write: > > ============================================== > include "biblio-notes.rnc" > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } > ============================================== From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Nov 26 01:14:15 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPIEFYs012793 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:14:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942392A038A; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:13:24 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031125181231.02675220@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:13:48 +0000 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas In-Reply-To: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> References: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:14:16 -0000 At 18:02 25/11/2003, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without >complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options anywhere! I found a mouse-trap yesterday. If a DTD source has an undefined element, that element comes over into .rnc file such that nothing shows as valid. Another DTD weakness/too lax option perhaps? HTH DaveP. From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 01:26:06 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPIPqkF014447 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:25:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A91BC52 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:25:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:25:40 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:26:07 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 19:02, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without > complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options > anywhere! In your schema, the element extension appears in: ModsType = attribute version { xsd:string "3.0" }?, attribute ID { xsd:ID }?, (titleInfo | name | typeOfResource | genre | originInfo | language2 | physicalDescription | abstract | tableOfContents | targetAudience | note | subject | classification | relatedItem | identifier | location | accessCondition | (notAllowed | element extension { mixed { element0+ } }) | recordInfo)+ What you want to redefine is in fact the content of the extension element to allow your biblio-notes element instead of "element0" which is a wildcard generated by the schema converter you've been using. If we look at your overall schema! include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } You can't redefine the named pattern "extension" since it doesn't exist in mods.rnc (BTW, it's strange that the RNG processor hasn't raised an error here). You could redefine "element0" but that would still give you a mixed content model for extension with one or more occurrences of biblio-notes. One option is to define an "extension-content" pattern: ============ ... ModsType = attribute version { xsd:string "3.0" }?, attribute ID { xsd:ID }?, (titleInfo | name | typeOfResource | genre | originInfo | language2 | physicalDescription | abstract | tableOfContents | targetAudience | note | subject | classification | relatedItem | identifier | location | accessCondition | element extension { extension-content } * | recordInfo)+ extension-content = mixed { element0+ } ... ============ and then your schema becomes: ============================================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" include "mods.rnc" { extension-content = biblio-notes } ============================================== Another option with the same mods.rnc and a biblio-notes.rnc where you've got a start pattern is simply: ============================================== include "mods.rnc" { extension-content = external "biblio-notes.rnc" } ============================================== Hope that helps. Eric -- Did you know it? Python has now a Relax NG (partial) implementation. http://advogato.org/proj/xvif/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Wed Nov 26 01:34:21 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPIYL8V015690 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:34:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOi0y-0000Ut-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:34:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:34:20 -0500 To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125183419.GD26214@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <6.0.0.22.2.20031125181231.02675220@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031125181231.02675220@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:34:24 -0000 Dave Pawson scripsit: > At 18:02 25/11/2003, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > >OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without > >complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options anywhere! > > I found a mouse-trap yesterday. > > If a DTD source has an undefined element, > that element comes over into .rnc file such that > nothing shows as valid. Exactly right. If an undefined element A is an essential part (not optional, nor choice) of the content model of element B, then any use of element B is ipso facto invalid. -- BALIN FUNDINUL UZBAD KHAZADDUMU jcowan@reutershealth.com BALIN SON OF FUNDIN LORD OF KHAZAD-DUM http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Nov 26 03:37:36 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPKbUYL036320 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:37:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAPKac3j010882 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:36:38 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAPKacYt010881 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:36:38 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311252036.hAPKacYt010881@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:36:38 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] trang: translating comments between compact and xml X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:37:36 -0000 Hi, trang translates element ( a # case a | b # case b ) { empty } into a b moving the second comment past the end of the name class. I realize that translation of comments is not normative; however, since the comments are translated by trang, is there a list of patterns where comments do not stay in place during translation? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Nov 26 03:52:27 2003 Received: from tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.163]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPKqQpw038452 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:52:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan2.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.162] helo=localhost) by tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOkAc-00066W-JR for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:26 +0000 Received: from rx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.161]) by localhost (scan2.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 23416-01 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wing1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.225]) by rx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOkAb-00066Q-92 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 Received: from httpd by wing1.herald.ox.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AOkAb-000730-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.411 (Entity 5.404) From: Sebastian Rahtz Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-Id: Subject: [relaxng-user] TEI relaxng schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:27 -0000 Members of this list may be interested in http://www.tei-c.org/P5/, which contains material about a new RelaxNG version of the Text Encoding Initiative guidelines. This is pre-alpha stuff, not endorsed yet by the TEI technical council, but may amuse some. The TEI is authored in its own literate programming language (a superset of the normal TEI), which describes a fairly elaborate class system for TEI elements. The elements are described in TEI notation, with their body expressed in relax ng XML notation. This means that the documentation and schemas are all generated from a single master mixed-namespace XML document, all of which can be validated. The generated HTML documentation shows the relaxng fragments in compact notation, for readability. DTDs are generated from the master source, and XSD is generated (on a good day) from relaxng schemas. just thought you'd like to hear of another large project doing relaxng Sebastian Rahtz From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 07:53:15 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQ0r93E072495 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:53:15 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: a9OEPgLxMDDmoWKL47NsQQ 1069807981 Received: from [134.53.28.81] (u81.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.81]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337F7445171 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:53:00 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:53:33 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:53:17 -0000 OK, I finally got it to work correctly, more or less. Thanks all! Here's an example fragment created using nxml mode: Got it to work! I just have a couple of questions remaining. The first is about namespaces. In the biblio-notes schema, I have the following namespace definition: default namespace = "http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns" The most obvious question is whether this is the correct way to specify the namespace in this circumstance. Also, should I be requiring the namespace prefix here, when the namespace is defined on the extension element? In this example, if remove the namespace prefix from the declaration and the included elements, I get an "unknown element" error on the extension element. Finally, as I recall nxml mode normally automatically completes the namespace declaration. it does not do so in this circumstance. Is this likely a limitation of nxml, or a problem in my definition? Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 13:56:02 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQ6u16P018109 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:56:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3993EBC52 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:55:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:55:54 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:56:04 -0000 On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 01:53, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > OK, I finally got it to work correctly, more or less. Good! > Thanks all! > > Here's an example fragment created using nxml mode: > > > > > Got it to work! > > > > > I just have a couple of questions remaining. > > The first is about namespaces. In the biblio-notes schema, I have the > following namespace definition: > > default namespace = "http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns" > > The most obvious question is whether this is the correct way to specify > the namespace in this circumstance. Yes. > Also, should I be requiring the namespace prefix here, when the > namespace is defined on the extension element? The namespaces rec states that prefixes are just shortcuts assigned to namespaces identifiers and that their values are not significant. As a result, you can't require a namespace prefix with RELAX NG (nor with W3C XML Schema). To require a specific prefix, you'd need to use either DTDs or Schematron but, again, that would not be conform to the intention of namespaces. > In this example, if remove the namespace prefix from the declaration > and the included elements, I get an "unknown element" error on the > extension element. What do you mean? Per the namespaces spec, this is a different document that should be invalid: Got it to work! But this one is equivalent to your snippet and it should be valid: Got it to work! > Finally, as I recall nxml mode normally automatically completes the > namespace declaration. it does not do so in this circumstance. Is > this likely a limitation of nxml, or a problem in my definition? Your definition looks good. Eric -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Nov 26 15:56:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQ8uI0n033053 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:56:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAQ8tR3j014034 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:55:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAQ8tR1a014033 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:55:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311260855.hAQ8tR1a014033@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:55:27 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] 'any' documentation X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:56:23 -0000 The Compact Syntax Specification says that "Any ## comments must precede any annotation in square brackets." May please someone clarify what the phrase means? Does 'any' apply to the schema in whole or to each pattern? A valid and invalid example in respect to this rule would be helpful. I would also like to reiterate my previous question: do I understand it correctly that escaped linefeed (\x{a}) terminates a comment and is a whitespace, while escaped carriage return (\x{d}) does not and is not? David Tolpin From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 17:53:45 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQArj2R047574 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:53:45 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: MPewQVuQQD3HXF0juEIEoQ 1069844022 Received: from [134.53.28.91] (u91.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.91]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFC3446862 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:53:38 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:53:54 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:53:47 -0000 On Nov 26, 2003, at 1:55 AM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >> In this example, if remove the namespace prefix from the declaration >> and the included elements, I get an "unknown element" error on the >> extension element. > > What do you mean? That nxml mode then says that the extension element is "unknown." Moving the declaration to the biblio-notes element solves that issue though. >> Finally, as I recall nxml mode normally automatically completes the >> namespace declaration. it does not do so in this circumstance. Is >> this likely a limitation of nxml, or a problem in my definition? > > Your definition looks good. OK thanks. Will look into it more. I'm now going through and cleaning up the mods schema. Can someone suggest how I might simplify the below? This is the auto-generated-from-the-XML-Schema stuff: anyType = mixed { (attribute * { text } | element1)* }, empty and: element0 = element * { mixed { (element0 | attribute * { text })* } } element1 = element * { mixed { (attribute * { text } | element1)* } } The patterns get used throughout like so: | element displayForm { anyType } I wonder if I can just eliminate those patterns and replace them with simply "text." My goal is a clean RNG schema, but also one fully compatible with the XML Schema, so I'm just being careful here. Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 18:13:24 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQBDLOL050185 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:13:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44D2BCA1 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:12:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069845199.1097.408.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:13:19 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:13:25 -0000 On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 11:53, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > I'm now going through and cleaning up the mods schema. Can someone > suggest how I might simplify the below? This is the > auto-generated-from-the-XML-Schema stuff: > > anyType = > mixed { > (attribute * { text } > | element1)* > }, > empty > > and: > > element0 = > element * { > mixed { > (element0 > | attribute * { text })* > } > } > > element1 = > element * { > mixed { > (attribute * { text } > | element1)* > } > } > > The patterns get used throughout like so: > > | element displayForm { anyType } > > I wonder if I can just eliminate those patterns and replace them with > simply "text." No, not really. They are meant to allow any element and text node in the extension element. If you want that the RNG schema keeps that feature when it's used standalone, you must keep such definitions. Replacing them by text would mean that valid documents per the WXS schema could be invalid per your RNG schema. Eric -- Did you know it? Python has now a Relax NG (partial) implementation. http://advogato.org/proj/xvif/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 27 05:14:28 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQMEOk9044339 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 05:14:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAQMDU3j017917 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:13:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAQMDTcu017916 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:13:29 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311262213.hAQMDTcu017916@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:13:29 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] repeated data X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:14:30 -0000 Hi, my impression is that element foo { "a"+ } is an invalid pattern. However, trang accepts it and converts into corresponding XML Syntax. Is the pattern valid? David Tolpin From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Thu Nov 27 06:13:21 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQNDL4K052628 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:13:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AP8qM-0002dT-00; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:13:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:13:10 -0500 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] repeated data Message-ID: <20031126231309.GA9692@mercury.ccil.org> References: <200311262213.hAQMDTcu017916@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311262213.hAQMDTcu017916@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:13:22 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > element foo { "a"+ } > > is an invalid pattern. However, trang accepts it and converts into > corresponding XML Syntax. It is indeed invalid. Trang is not guaranteed to catch errors in input, and when the output is xsd, it may generate erroneous output as well. It's a best-effort program. -- Only do what only you can do. John Cowan --Edsger W. Dijkstra, http://www.reutershealth.com deceased 6 August 2002 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 27 07:52:14 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAR0qBYM064835 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:52:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAR0pG3j025812 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:51:16 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAR0pGSO025811 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:51:16 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311270051.hAR0pGSO025811@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] repeated data In-Reply-To: <20031126231309.GA9692@mercury.ccil.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:51:16 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:52:17 -0000 > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > element foo { "a"+ } > > > > is an invalid pattern. However, trang accepts it and converts into > > corresponding XML Syntax. > > It is indeed invalid. Trang is not guaranteed to catch errors in input, and > when the output is xsd, it may generate erroneous output as well. > It's a best-effort program. Thank you, I realize it now that since grouping restrictions are specified for the simple form, and trang does not translate to the simple form. Interestingly, nXML does not check restrictions either, and successfully validates against this grammar (that is, it allows sequences of a, but not other strings). Why this restriction is imposed at all? David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Nov 28 20:59:50 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASDxkHa019110 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:59:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASDwe3j034610 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:58:40 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASDwdCH034609 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:58:39 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311281358.hASDwdCH034609@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:58:39 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] groupability X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:59:50 -0000 I am writing a Relax NG parser. I must resolve all references (ref,parentRef) before checking groupability restrictions, right? That is, I cannot do it in one pass and must carry information about the position of a pattern in the source code to the second pass? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 03:02:12 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASK283b063501 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASK113j035596 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:01:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASK10w5035595 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:01:00 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282001.hASK10w5035595@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:01:00 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] missing start element X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:02:13 -0000 Hi, why start = element foo {grammar{}} is illegal? It matches productions in the specification, and I cannot find where it is required that 'start' is required. David From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Nov 29 03:35:41 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASKZef0066953 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:35:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFA0BC8B for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:35:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200311282001.hASK10w5035595@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282001.hASK10w5035595@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1070051733.1096.3588.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:35:33 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:35:41 -0000 Hi, On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 21:01, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > why > > start = element foo {grammar{}} > > is illegal? It matches productions in the specification, and I cannot find > where it is required that 'start' is required. A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would be simplified as : start = element foo {} and that "element foo {}" is illegal. Eric -- Curious about Relax NG? My book in progress is waiting for your review! http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 03:55:09 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASKt6V7069457 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:55:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASKrx3j035873 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:53:59 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASKrx3g035872 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:53:59 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282053.hASKrx3g035872@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:53:59 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:55:10 -0000 > > A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would > be simplified as : > > start = element foo {} > > and that "element foo {}" is illegal. This is simply not that what is written in the specification. The specification says that 1) a grammar element can be empty. The grammar, both in EBNF and in RNG says so. 2) In the simplification rule for 'grammar', it says: "Next, move all define elements to be children of the top-level grammar element, replace each nested grammar element by the child of its start element and rename each parentRef element to ref." It does not say what to do with an empty grammar element at all. Besides, nXML validates against the grammar above as though element foo {grammar {}} is the same as element {empty}, while jing rejects the grammar. No behaviour is defined in the specification and either behaviour can be accepted as an extension of the currently specified behaviour. Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that grammar is start & (define|include|div)* instead of (start|define|include|div)* ? David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Nov 29 04:03:18 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASL3HVM070764 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:03:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFD3BC8B for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:02:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200311282053.hASKrx3g035872@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282053.hASKrx3g035872@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1070053396.1106.3620.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:03:17 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:03:18 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 21:53, David Tolpin wrote: > > > > A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would > > be simplified as : > > > > start = element foo {} > > > > and that "element foo {}" is illegal. > > This is simply not that what is written in the specification. The specification says > that > > 1) a grammar element can be empty. The grammar, both in EBNF and in RNG says so. > 2) In the simplification rule for 'grammar', it says: "Next, move all define > elements to be children of the top-level grammar element, replace each nested > grammar element by the child of its start element and rename each parentRef > element to ref." > > It does not say what to do with an empty grammar element at all. Well, then that's just my interpretation of "replace each nested grammar element by the child of its start element" to think that in that case this is just nothing! > Besides, nXML validates against the grammar above as though element foo {grammar {}} > is the same as element {empty}, while jing rejects the grammar. No behaviour > is defined in the specification and either behaviour can be accepted as an extension > of the currently specified behaviour. > > Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that > grammar is > > start & (define|include|div)* > > instead of > > (start|define|include|div)* No, because you can define a grammar without start pattern that you include in other grammars which have a start pattern. Eric -- Read me on XMLhack. http://xmlhack.com/author.php?id=8 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 04:17:19 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASLHEat072390 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:17:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASLG63j036013 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:16:06 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASLG6jf036012 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:16:06 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282116.hASLG6jf036012@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element In-Reply-To: <1070053396.1106.3620.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:16:06 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:20 -0000 > > Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that > > grammar is > > > > start & (define|include|div)* > > > > instead of > > > > (start|define|include|div)* > > No, because you can define a grammar without start pattern that you > include in other grammars which have a start pattern. OK. So the only grammars which can omit start element are top-level ones? In which case it is not a pattern because it does not match? It makes things more clear, thank you. I would still prefer to have RELAX NG schema for RELAX NG specifying it. David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Nov 29 04:27:38 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASLRbD0073527 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:27:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA7EBC89 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:27:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200311282116.hASLG6jf036012@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282116.hASLG6jf036012@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1070054855.1104.3654.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:27:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:27:38 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 22:16, David Tolpin wrote: > It makes things more clear, thank you. I would still prefer to have RELAX NG schema > for RELAX NG specifying it. This is a general problem with RELAX NG: most of the language restrictions can't be captured by the RNG schema for RNG. The reason is that most of the restrictions of RNG are expressed on the schema after simplification while the RNG schema for RNG describes the schema before simplification. OTH, I think that's this design decision is one of the reasons for the level of flexibility of RELAX NG and that's a fair enough price to pay! Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 04:43:59 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASLhtqt075239 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:43:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASLgl3j036172 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:42:47 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASLgluC036171 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:42:47 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282142.hASLgluC036171@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <1070054855.1104.3654.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:42:47 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:43:59 -0000 > This is a general problem with RELAX NG: most of the language > restrictions can't be captured by the RNG schema for RNG. This one easily can, by the way. RNG is context specific, and specifying that the 'grammar' element has different content models in different contexts is possible. On the other hand, if includeContent is different from grammarContent, then topLevelContent can be different too. It is easy and natural in BNF, RNG and plain text. I would be glad to see this part of the specification updated -- it would make my life easier. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 06:15:00 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASNEuE7085582 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 06:14:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASNDn3j038080 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:13:49 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASNDm5W038079 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:13:48 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282313.hASNDm5W038079@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:13:48 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] implicit grammar X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:15:01 -0000 Hi, What's the reason behind not allowing implicit grammars in included schemas? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 03:53:12 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASKr8G8069206 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:53:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASKq23j035821 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:52:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASKq2xh035820 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:52:02 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282052.hASKq2xh035820@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element In-Reply-To: <1070051733.1096.3588.camel@delleric> To: Eric van der Vlist Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:51:40 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: dvd@davidashen.net X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:06:24 +0700 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:53:12 -0000 > > A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would > be simplified as : > > start = element foo {} > > and that "element foo {}" is illegal. This is simply not that what is written in the specification. The specification says that 1) a grammar element can be empty. The grammar, both in EBNF and in RNG says so. 2) In the simplification rule for 'grammar', it says: "Next, move all define elements to be children of the top-level grammar element, replace each nested grammar element by the child of its start element and rename each parentRef element to ref." It does not say what to do with an empty grammar element at all. Besides, nXML validates against the grammar above as though element foo {grammar {}} is the same as element {empty}, while jing rejects the grammar. No behaviour is defined in the specification and either behaviour can be accepted as an extension of the currently specified behaviour. Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that grammar is start & (define|include|div)* instead of (start|define|include|div)* ? David Tolpin From darolst@pantor.com Sun Nov 30 02:13:59 2003 Received: from mail.g.bonet.se (mail.g.bonet.se [212.181.52.4]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATJDqtk013835 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:13:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.g.bonet.se (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hATJD0XS052447 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:13:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from darolst@pantor.com) Message-ID: <3FC8EFEE.9030503@pantor.com> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:13:50 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt References: <200311282142.hASLgluC036171@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311282142.hASLgluC036171@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:14:00 -0000 Um, I think not. Simplification rule 4.18 clearly states "A grammar must have a start child element." This is after the previous simplification rules has been applied. More specifically "4.7. include element" is interesting in this situation. start = element foo { grammar { include "grammar-with-start.rnc" }} Provided that the included grammar does have a start pattern, this is a perfectly valid schema and this shows that you cannot require a start in the grammar before the simplification. Cheers, David David Tolpin wrote: >>This is a general problem with RELAX NG: most of the language >>restrictions can't be captured by the RNG schema for RNG. >> >> > >This one easily can, by the way. RNG is context specific, and specifying >that the 'grammar' element has different content models in different contexts >is possible. > >On the other hand, if includeContent is different from grammarContent, then >topLevelContent can be different too. It is easy and natural in BNF, RNG >and plain text. I would be glad to see this part of the specification updated -- >it would make my life easier. > >David Tolpin >_______________________________________________ >relaxng-user mailing list >relaxng-user@relaxng.org >http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > > From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 02:55:33 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATJtUkN018233 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:55:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATJsG3j044295 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:54:16 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATJsGuM044294 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:54:16 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311291954.hATJsGuM044294@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <3FC8EFEE.9030503@pantor.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:54:16 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:55:34 -0000 > Um, I think not. Simplification rule 4.18 clearly states "A grammar must > have a start child element." > This is after the previous simplification rules has been applied. More > specifically "4.7. include element" > is interesting in this situation. > > start = element foo { grammar { include "grammar-with-start.rnc" }} > > Provided that the included grammar does have a start pattern, > this is a perfectly valid schema and this shows that you cannot > require a start in the grammar before the simplification. David, you are right, thank you. Another question: why is, in the compact syntax, top-level '"grammar" "{" ... "}"' is optional for the main module but required for included and referenced modules? (That is, why jing and nXML both require it)? The spec says that it "must be a grammar". Why implicit grammar is not allowed? David From darolst@pantor.com Sun Nov 30 04:39:34 2003 Received: from mail.g.bonet.se (mail.g.bonet.se [212.181.52.4]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATLdWZW029350 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 04:39:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.g.bonet.se (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hATLccXS060093 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:38:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from darolst@pantor.com) Message-ID: <3FC91211.5010601@pantor.com> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:39:29 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt References: <200311291954.hATJsGuM044294@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311291954.hATJsGuM044294@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:39:35 -0000 It's not required for any top level grammars. The compact to XML syntax translation is done on a file per file basis. So the translator doesn't really have any idea of what is a main module or an included module. So each file has its own top level. Therefore, the following is perfectly valid: schema1.rnc: include "schema2.rnc" start = foo schema2.rnc: foo = element foo { text } Cheers, David David Tolpin wrote: > why is, in the compact syntax, top-level '"grammar" "{" ... "}"' is > optional for the main > >module but required for included and referenced modules? (That is, why jing and nXML >both require it)? The spec says that it "must be a grammar". > >Why implicit grammar is not allowed? > >David > > > From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 05:17:21 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATMHIY4033528 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:17:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATMG43j045248 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:16:04 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATMG181045247 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:16:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <3FC91211.5010601@pantor.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:16:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:17:22 -0000 > file has its own top level. Therefore, the following is > perfectly valid: > Hmm, indeed. I must have looked at the wrong place. I am sorry for the many questions. Another question: test.rnc start = foo foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} testi.rnc foo|empty nXML accepts it. jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. Does externalRef create a new scope? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 05:33:24 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATMXLSu035096 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:33:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATMW73j045579 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:32:07 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATMW7GC045578 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:32:07 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311292232.hATMW7GC045578@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:32:07 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:33:25 -0000 > > file has its own top level. Therefore, the following is > > perfectly valid: > > > > Hmm, indeed. I must have looked at the wrong place. I am sorry for the many > questions. > > Another question: > > test.rnc > > start = foo > foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} > > testi.rnc > > foo|empty > > nXML accepts it. jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. Does externalRef > create a new scope? Further on, if I translate the grammar above using trang into XML Syntax, the referenced file is translated into 'grammar' element, and the grammar is still invalid. If I remove the wrapping grammar element, then the grammar is valid. If I then translate the valid XML RNG schema into either XML or compact syntax using trang, I get invalid grammar. I'm lost. The question is not whether trang is perfect or not. The question is whether there is an implicit grammar in a file consisting of a single pattern. and if there is, why nXML and jing both complain when I try to include testi.rnc (include "testi.rnc"; either syntax error or 'not a grammar'). David From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 05:42:44 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATMgfnM036076 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:42:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATMfR3j045645 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:41:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATMfRNP045644 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:41:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311292241.hATMfRNP045644@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:41:27 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Difference between externalRef and include X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:42:46 -0000 The RELAX NG Specification says that the resource behind URI passed as argument to 'externalRef' must much the syntax for pattern, while one passed to 'include' must match the syntax for grammar. The Relax NG Compact Syntax says that both should reference a grammar in the compact syntax. The latter makes me think that a file is either sintactically valid for both referencing from externalRef and include or invalid for both contexts. Both Jing and nXML disagree with me. Further on, jing parses contents of an external file passed to externalRef as a grammar, but refuses to accept the same file if passed to include. David Tolpin From darolst@pantor.com Sun Nov 30 06:37:12 2003 Received: from mail.g.bonet.se (mail.g.bonet.se [212.181.52.4]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATNbBkV041428 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:37:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.g.bonet.se (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hATNaHXS066222 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:36:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from darolst@pantor.com) Message-ID: <3FC92DA4.6050609@pantor.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:37:08 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt References: <200311292232.hATMW7GC045578@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311292232.hATMW7GC045578@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:37:12 -0000 Your example is correct, and should after transformation and simplification be isomorphic with: foo So any tool saying otherwise is wrong. Cheers, David David Tolpin wrote: >>Another question: >> >>test.rnc >> >>start = foo >>foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} >> >>testi.rnc >> >>foo|empty >> >>nXML accepts it. jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. Does externalRef >>create a new scope? >> >> > >Further on, > >if I translate the grammar above using trang into XML Syntax, the referenced file is translated >into 'grammar' element, and the grammar is still invalid. If I remove the wrapping grammar element, >then the grammar is valid. > >If I then translate the valid XML RNG schema into either XML or compact syntax using trang, >I get invalid grammar. > >I'm lost. The question is not whether trang is perfect or not. The question is whether there is >an implicit grammar in a file consisting of a single pattern. and if there is, why nXML and jing >both complain when I try to include testi.rnc (include "testi.rnc"; either syntax error or 'not >a grammar'). > >David >_______________________________________________ >relaxng-user mailing list >relaxng-user@relaxng.org >http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > > From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 30 21:58:31 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUEwVux038520 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:58:31 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: IxTSgl9nKhyKvKw0oYwvJg 1070204304 Received: from [134.53.28.38] (u38.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.38]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAED451D7D for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:58:23 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:59:02 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:58:31 -0000 I'm dealing with a DTD that uses character entities to represent typographic specs for bibliographies. I know the schema languages don't do entities, so how would one deal with this in relax ng? Use unicode numbers? The characters themselves? Put differently, is it a bad idea to develop a new DTD that relies on entities in this way, given the general shift away from DTDs in the XML world? This is intended to be an xml equivalent to bibtex style files, so if successful, a couple/few years from now there should be a lot of them available. Future proof-ness should be a goal, then. Here's a fragment of an instance based on the DTD: In Bruce From tbray@textuality.com Sun Nov 30 23:20:56 2003 Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUGKtOx047276 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:20:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C7910336; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:20:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:20:49 -0800 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:20:57 -0000 On Nov 30, 2003, at 6:59 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > I'm dealing with a DTD that uses character entities to represent > typographic specs for bibliographies. I know the schema languages > don't do entities, so how would one deal with this in relax ng? Use > unicode numbers? The characters themselves? You might find http://tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/09/27/UniEmacs and http://norman.walsh.name/threads/xmlunicode relevant, although they are quite Emacs-focused. -Tim From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 30 23:39:38 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUGdbB4049316 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:39:37 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: X1+4IWbeSBIZxoNSnWp/9Q 1070210375 Received: from [134.53.28.22] (u22.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836C5451EBF for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:39:34 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:40:14 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:39:38 -0000 On Nov 30, 2003, at 11:20 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > You might find > http://tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/09/27/UniEmacs > and > http://norman.walsh.name/threads/xmlunicode > > relevant, although they are quite Emacs-focused. Hi Tim, Yeah, I've read this stuff before, and I get the sort of abstract argument. Since I'm on Mac OS X and use emacs, I'm happy to just use unicode characters directly and be done with it actually. However, I'm trying to understand how to deal with this specific example, where a) the spec needs to deal with extended characters, often (at least currently) in attributes and b) the person developing the DTD (Peter Flynn) uses Linux for the most part, is happy with DTDs and their entities, and loathe to learn something like RNG unless he must. I'm also worried about the portability of the instances that results from the spec. It seems to me it is in fact a bad idea to base anything new on entities, but I'm not sure if this is the correct conclusion, nor exactly why. At the same time, I gather that using raw unicode characters will cause problems for many people, at least currently. Bruce From veillard@redhat.com Sun Nov 30 23:53:36 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUGraHX050640 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:53:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAUGrGDl015485; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:53:16 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAUGrGjM015483; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:53:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:53:16 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? Message-ID: <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:53:36 -0000 On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > However, I'm trying to understand how to deal with this specific > example, where a) the spec needs to deal with extended characters, > often (at least currently) in attributes and b) the person developing > the DTD (Peter Flynn) uses Linux for the most part, is happy with DTDs > and their entities, and loathe to learn something like RNG unless he > must. I'm also worried about the portability of the instances that > results from the spec. > > It seems to me it is in fact a bad idea to base anything new on > entities, but I'm not sure if this is the correct conclusion, nor > exactly why. At the same time, I gather that using raw unicode > characters will cause problems for many people, at least currently. Hum, it sounds to me that using entities in attributes is more likely to give troubles (SAX "eats" them) when editing than using Unicode characters. Of course it all depends on the tools used but I would expect recent editors to be UTF-8 ready on Linux (if not they need to be chased down and fixed or dropped). Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es Tue Dec 2 00:42:13 2003 Received: from unica.udc.es (unica.udc.es [193.147.41.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB1HgB5B038817 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 00:42:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from unica.udc.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB1Hg3ON013291 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:42:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from necora.cdf.udc.es (necora.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.147.41.4]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB1Hg3Cl013286 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:42:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from eps213 (eps213.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.144.52.213]) by necora.cdf.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.11.3) with SMTP id hB1Hg2IW023237 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:42:03 -0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Castro?= To: References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:43:12 +0100 Organization: UDC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id hB1HgB5B038817 Subject: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:42:13 -0000 Hello, I'm writing a modular schema in compact syntax, so I have driver.rnc module1.rnc module2.rnc ... I'm having problems when I translate my schema (file "driver.rnc") into XML syntax with trang (version 20030619). 1) The point between the name and the extension is missing in the generated module files: driver.rng module1rng <== should be "module1.rng" module2rng <== should be "module2.rng" ... 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns ... However, after the translation into XML syntax the resulting RNG files (driver and modules) have all grammars, elements and attributes defined in the default namespace. It seems that trang ignores the namespace definition in my RNC driver file. I tried with a driver file like this: default namespace = "http://mynamespace" include "module1.rnc" include "module2.rnc" ... And it happens the same. Any workarround for this? Thanks in advance for your time, Manuel From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Dec 2 04:46:28 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB1LkOTQ080693 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:46:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1Lit3j054142; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:44:55 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB1LirKp054141; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:44:53 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312012144.hB1LirKp054141@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems In-Reply-To: <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Castro?= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:44:53 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:46:29 -0000 > 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: > > namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" > include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns > include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns > ... > > However, after the translation into XML syntax the resulting RNG files (driver and modules) have all grammars, elements and attributes defined in the default namespace. It seems that trang ignores the namespace definition in my RNC driver file. > > I tried with a driver file like this: > > default namespace = "http://mynamespace" > include "module1.rnc" > include "module2.rnc" > ... > > And it happens the same. Any workarround for this? Looking at the trang's source, there must be something that triggers addition of a namespace. The following should work: namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" bar = element myns:bar {empty} include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns David From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Dec 4 19:57:38 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB4CvZf7019280 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:57:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB4Ctp3j096550 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:55:51 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB4CtpUU096549 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:55:51 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312041255.hB4CtpUU096549@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:55:51 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] content-type for notAllowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:57:38 -0000 Hello, I am trying to follow the specification. is the following valid element foo {notAllowed} ? I am asking because content-type is not specified for notAllowed, but the restriction is that "All patterns occurring as the content of an element pattern must have a content-type." So, notAllowed should have a content-type? David From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:06:59 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB516wwQ029969 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:06:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB516nAB097871; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:06:50 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] content-type for notAllowed From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200312041255.hB4CtpUU096549@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312041255.hB4CtpUU096549@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070582294.1776.29.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:01:52 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relax-ng@lists.oasis-open.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:07:00 -0000 On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 19:55, David Tolpin wrote: > Hello, > > I am trying to follow the specification. > > is the following valid > > element foo {notAllowed} > > ? Definitely. It's explicitly allowed by the grammar in Section 5. > I am asking because content-type is not specified for notAllowed, > but the restriction is that "All patterns occurring as the content of an > element pattern must have a content-type." > > So, notAllowed should have a content-type? It looks like there is a bug in 7.2 here. However, I don't think the fix is to give notAllowed a content-type, because in the simplified form notAllowed only appears as the content of the element by itself. Rather I think the fix is to say that a pattern occurring as the content of an element must either be notAllowed or must have a content type. This parallels the production for top in Section 5. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:07:56 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB517tqp030092 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB517riI098073; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:07:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems From: James Clark To: Manuel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gonz=E1lez?= Castro In-Reply-To: <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <1070583508.1776.33.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:02:50 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:07:56 -0000 On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 00:43, Manuel González Castro wrote: > Hello, > > I'm writing a modular schema in compact syntax, so I have > > driver.rnc > module1.rnc > module2.rnc > ... > > I'm having problems when I translate my schema (file "driver.rnc") into XML syntax with trang (version 20030619). > > 1) The point between the name and the extension is missing in the generated module files: > > driver.rng > module1rng <== should be "module1.rng" > module2rng <== should be "module2.rng" > ... I can't reproduce this. If you send a proper bug report, I'll look at it further. > 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: > > namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" > include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns > include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns > ... Trang RNG output has some bugs in handling inherit on include. They should be fixed in the next version. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:09:03 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB5193xd030236 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:09:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB518uf6098244; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:08:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Difference between externalRef and include From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311292241.hATMfRNP045644@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311292241.hATMfRNP045644@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070584256.1776.46.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:03:53 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAX NG List , "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:09:04 -0000 On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 05:41, David Tolpin wrote: > The RELAX NG Specification says that the resource behind URI passed as argument to 'externalRef' > must much the syntax for pattern, while one passed to 'include' must match the syntax for grammar. This is correct. It wouldn't be coherent for include to reference a pattern. > The Relax NG Compact Syntax says that both should reference a grammar in the compact syntax. Section 2 in the Compact Syntax spec includes the sentence "The value of an anyURILiteral specified with include or external is a URI reference to a grammar in the compact syntax." The point this sentence is trying to make is that the thing referenced by include or external is in the compact syntax rather that the XML syntax. (At one stage trang's predecessor translated each file individually and left file names unaltered.) It's not trying to say that what's referenced is always a grammar rather than a pattern. I can see now that the sentence is at best misleading and needs an errata. Note that in the Compact Syntax spec, Appendix A contains the full, rigorous specification and the other sections are an informal summary. When in doubt, consult Appendix A. > Further on, jing parses contents of an external file passed to externalRef as a grammar, > but refuses to accept the same file if passed to include. A file referenced by externalRef is parsed as a pattern, which will be unacceptable to include, unless it is also a grammar. Are you saying Jing is inconsistent with the RELAX NG spec? James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:10:06 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51A5AH030372 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:10:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB519xZR098456; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:10:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070585867.1776.71.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:04:56 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:10:06 -0000 On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 05:16, David Tolpin wrote: > Another question: > > test.rnc > > start = foo > foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} > > testi.rnc > > foo|empty This is fine. > jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. The jing I have here accepts it. I can't remember whether this was something I fixed since the last public release, and I can't conveniently check this right now. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:36:34 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51aXdx034022 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:36:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51aQRd004201; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:36:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] implicit grammar From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311282313.hASNDm5W038079@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282313.hASNDm5W038079@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070587878.1776.77.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:31:18 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:36:35 -0000 On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 06:13, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > What's the reason behind not allowing implicit grammars in included schemas? They are allowed. Each file in a compact syntax schema is translated individually to XML syntax. Each file is translated the same way whether its the top level file, referenced in include or referenced in external. The compact syntax schema is correct if the requirements of Appendix A of the Compact Syntax spec are met and if the resulting XML syntax schema is correct. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:43:17 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51hGdp034811 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:43:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51hA5T005536; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:43:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] groupability From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311281358.hASDwdCH034609@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311281358.hASDwdCH034609@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070588283.1776.84.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:38:03 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:43:19 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 20:58, David Tolpin wrote: > I must resolve all references (ref,parentRef) before checking groupability > restrictions, right? Yes. The groupability restrictions are expressed on simple form. > That is, I cannot do it in one pass and must carry information about the position > of a pattern in the source code to the second pass? If you want to report position information for violations of groupability restrictions, then I think the schema parser has to create structures with position information. James From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Dec 5 16:46:30 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB59kQeU095381 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:46:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB59ib3j002753 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:37 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB59iap4002752 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:36 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312050944.hB59iap4002752@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Difference between externalRef and include In-Reply-To: <1070584256.1776.46.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:36 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:46:31 -0000 > > Further on, jing parses contents of an external file passed to externalRef as a grammar, > > but refuses to accept the same file if passed to include. > > A file referenced by externalRef is parsed as a pattern, which will be > unacceptable to include, unless it is also a grammar. Are you saying > Jing is inconsistent with the RELAX NG spec? James, thank you for the explanation. Jing is conformant and consistent, I was looking at the testing results at 3 o'clock in the night. I am terribly sorry. David From iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es Fri Dec 5 17:17:37 2003 Received: from unica.udc.es (unica.udc.es [193.147.41.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB5AHa4B099146 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:17:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from unica.udc.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB5AHU1o005544 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:17:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from necora.cdf.udc.es (necora.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.147.41.4]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB5AHT04005536 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:17:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from eps213 (eps213.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.144.52.213]) by necora.cdf.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.11.3) with SMTP id hB5AHRIW020944 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:17:28 -0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <006401c3bb19$29bca030$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Manuel_Gonz=C3=A1lez_Castro?= To: References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> <1070583508.1776.33.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:18:39 +0100 Organization: UDC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id hB5AHa4B099146 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:17:38 -0000 Hello, James Clark wrote: >> On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 00:43, Manuel González Castro wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm writing a modular schema in compact syntax, so I have >>> >>> driver.rnc >>> module1.rnc >>> module2.rnc >>> ... >>> >>> I'm having problems when I translate my schema (file "driver.rnc") >>> into XML syntax with trang (version 20030619). >>> >>> 1) The point between the name and the extension is missing in the >>> generated module files: >>> >>> driver.rng >>> module1rng <== should be "module1.rng" >>> module2rng <== should be "module2.rng" >>> ... >> >> I can't reproduce this. If you send a proper bug report, I'll look >> at >> it further. Sorry: I was testing an xml editor with a trang plugin, the trang.jar file that comes with it is 20030619 but for some extrange reason calling trang from the editor IDE causes the file extension problem. Calling trang from the command line works perfect, the bug is in the editor. >>> 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes >>> in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a >>> namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: >>> >>> namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" >>> include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns >>> include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns >>> ... >> >> Trang RNG output has some bugs in handling inherit on include. They >> should be fixed in the next version. I resolved this with David Tolpin's advice, thanks a lot to both, Manuel From jjc@jclark.com Sat Dec 6 04:40:44 2003 Received: from S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (p154.n-nypop03.stsn.com [199.106.90.154]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hB5Leiid001004 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:40:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.150.134.130] ([10.150.134.130]) by S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2003120516413626596 ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:41:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311250914.hAP9EOvG007309@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311250914.hAP9EOvG007309@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070648331.4232.45.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 04:36:02 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:40:47 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 16:14, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > do I understand it correctly that while #xA terminates a comment and is a whitespace > in the compact syntax, Right. This ensures that a user can always replace any literal character in the original source by an escape. > #xD does not and is not? Right. There didn't seem any reason why it should be whitespace. This is covered by: http://relaxng.org/compact.html#t-separator James From jjc@jclark.com Sat Dec 6 04:40:46 2003 Received: from S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (p154.n-nypop03.stsn.com [199.106.90.154]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hB5Leiie001004 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:40:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.150.134.130] ([10.150.134.130]) by S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2003120516415713554 ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:41:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang: translating comments between compact and xml From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311252036.hAPKacYt010881@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311252036.hAPKacYt010881@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070649881.4232.67.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 04:36:22 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:40:48 -0000 On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 03:36, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > trang translates > > element > ( a # case a > | b # case b > ) > { empty } > > into > > > > > a > > b > > > > > > moving the second comment past the end of the name class. I realize that translation > of comments is not normative; however, since the comments are translated by trang, > is there a list of patterns where comments do not stay in place during translation? On input, trang associates comments with the next following object (i.e. pattern, name-class, grammar component, annotation). On output, it reverses this. The next object following the "case b" comment is the empty pattern. So on output, the comment will end up before element. This means that the style of commenting in the compact syntax where you put the comment on the same line after the thing it applies doesn't translate well. Perhaps trang could notice when there's no newline between an object and a comment and then associate the comment with the preceding object and flag that in its internal representation, but I think it would be hard to make it always do what a human who actually understood the comment would do. James From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Dec 6 05:11:37 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB5MBWHp005580 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 05:11:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB5M9d3j006688 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:09:39 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB5M9dQI006687 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:09:39 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312052209.hB5M9dQI006687@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax In-Reply-To: <1070648331.4232.45.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:09:39 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:11:38 -0000 > On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 16:14, David Tolpin wrote: > > Hi, > > > > do I understand it correctly that while #xA terminates a comment and is a whitespace > > in the compact syntax, > > Right. This ensures that a user can always replace any literal character > in the original source by an escape. > > > #xD does not and is not? > > Right. There didn't seem any reason why it should be whitespace. > > This is covered by: > > http://relaxng.org/compact.html#t-separator Yes, I implemented it as it is covered by the specification. What caused my question is that > Representations of newlines are normalized to a newline marker. Specifically, > each occurrence of > > * a #xA character, > * a #xD character that is not followed by a #xA character, or > * a #xD, #xA character pair > > is transformed to a newline marker. The result of this stage is thus a sequence > whose members are Unicode characters and newline markers. But if I replace literal characters in the original source, the interpretation will be different, since #xD, when escaped, is not normalized to newline marker and is not a line terminator. I am just trying to make sure that I got it right. I want my interpretation to be complying to the specification. David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Dec 6 05:22:10 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB5MM5Xr007040 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 05:22:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB5MKC3j006768 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:20:12 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB5MKCQf006767 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:20:12 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312052220.hB5MKCQf006767@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang: translating comments between compact and xml In-Reply-To: <1070649881.4232.67.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:20:12 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:22:10 -0000 > On input, trang associates comments with the next following object (i.e. > pattern, name-class, grammar component, annotation). On output, it > reverses this. The next object following the "case b" comment is the > empty pattern. So on output, the comment will end up before > element. Great, this is sufficient to know to write schemas that can be turned into XML syntax with trang. > preceding object and flag that in its internal representation, but I > think it would be hard to make it always do what a human who actually > understood the comment would do. I realize it, and I didn't expect the tool to do more than it does now, I just wanted to understand (and somehow failed from reading the source code) how one should align comments to get consistent results. David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Dec 6 07:53:16 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB60rDt2025402 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 07:53:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB60pK3j011179 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:51:20 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB60pJ4g011178 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:51:19 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312060051.hB60pJ4g011178@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:51:19 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] duplicate declarations X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:53:18 -0000 Hi, 1) is it valid to assign a different URL to xsd datatype prefix? datatypes xsd = "xyz" 2) Jing does not report errors for multiple namespace declarations. namespace fo = "abc" namespace fo = "xyz" start = empty Is it because it does not check for this limitation? Or is it allowed? David From jjc@jclark.com Sat Dec 6 19:19:35 2003 Received: from S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (p154.n-nypop03.stsn.com [199.106.90.154]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hB6CJZ7v001698 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:19:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.150.134.130] ([10.150.134.130]) by S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2003120607203812105 ; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:20:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200312052209.hB5M9dQI006687@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312052209.hB5M9dQI006687@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070712886.4232.77.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:14:47 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 12:19:37 -0000 On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 05:09, David Tolpin wrote: > But if I replace literal characters in the original source, the interpretation will > be different, since #xD, when escaped, is not normalized to newline marker and is not > a line terminator. Any line terminators (whether #xD #xA, #xD or #xA)in the original source have to be escaped as \x{A}. Replacing a literal #xD by \x{D} would only work if newline normalization happened _after_ escape interpretation, but this wouldn't have been a good idea because plenty of environments do line termination normalization on input. James From jjc@jclark.com Sat Dec 6 19:30:05 2003 Received: from S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (p154.n-nypop03.stsn.com [199.106.90.154]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hB6CU5xY002730 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:30:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.150.134.130] ([10.150.134.130]) by S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2003120607311500140 ; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:31:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] duplicate declarations From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200312060051.hB60pJ4g011178@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312060051.hB60pJ4g011178@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070713534.4232.88.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:25:34 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 12:30:05 -0000 See http://relaxng.org/compact.html#nt-decl Specifically the "duplication declaration" and "xsd prefix" constraints. Both these things are not allowed. James On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 07:51, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > 1) is it valid to assign a different URL to xsd datatype prefix? > > datatypes xsd = "xyz" > > 2) Jing does not report errors for multiple namespace declarations. > > namespace fo = "abc" > namespace fo = "xyz" > > start = empty > > Is it because it does not check for this limitation? Or is it allowed? > > David > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Dec 6 21:38:30 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB6EcOvY016053 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:38:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB6EaR3j013124 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:36:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB6EaR2a013123 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:36:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312061436.hB6EaR2a013123@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax In-Reply-To: <1070712886.4232.77.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:36:27 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:38:31 -0000 > On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 05:09, David Tolpin wrote: > > > But if I replace literal characters in the original source, the interpretation will > > be different, since #xD, when escaped, is not normalized to newline marker and is not > > a line terminator. > > Any line terminators (whether #xD #xA, #xD or #xA)in the original source > have to be escaped as \x{A}. Replacing a literal #xD by \x{D} would > only work if newline normalization happened _after_ escape > interpretation, but this wouldn't have been a good idea because plenty > of environments do line termination normalization on input. But this is not what the specification says. It explicitly distinguishes between the newline marker and \x{A}, and says that both newline markers and \x{A} can be present in the stream after newline normalization. The grammar, further, mentions newline marker separate from \x{A}; and I understand it is that the newline marker is not any character but a special entry in the source stream. : 2.4. Escape interpretation : : In this stage, each escape sequence of the form \x{n}, where n is a hexadecimal : number, is replaced by the character with Unicode code n. The escape sequence : must match the production escapeSequence; the value computed in the BNF is the : Unicode code of the replacement character. It is an error if the replacement : character does not match the Char production of [XML 1.0]. It is an error if : the input character sequence contains a character sequence escapeOpen that does : not start an escapeSequence. After an escape sequence has been replaced, : scanning for escape sequences continues following the replacement character; : thus \x{5C}x{5C} is transformed to \x{5C} not to \. The replacement for \x{A} : or \x{D} is a character, as for all other escape sequences, not a newline : marker. Thus the sequence that results from this stage can contain #xA and #xD : characters as well as newline markers. The grammar lists both &newline; and &#A; as line terminators. They are separate in the grammar, and I understand that these are two different things. Am I wrong? I would understand, if neither \x{A} nor \x{D} were line terminators or spaces, but rather normal characters, disallowed everywhere but in literals. I just don't understand the difference between xA and xD with regard to the language of the specification. If I understand it correctly, nXML does not use \x{A} as a newline marker, but rather uses #0 for this purpose, and explicitely checks for either \x{A} or #0 as the end-of-line. I will keep it as it is, but want to be sure that I've done it right. David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Dec 6 21:40:01 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB6Edv3i016195 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:39:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB6Ec03j013145 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:38:00 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB6Ec0Pb013144 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:38:00 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312061438.hB6Ec0Pb013144@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] duplicate declarations In-Reply-To: <1070713534.4232.88.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:38:00 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:40:01 -0000 > See > > http://relaxng.org/compact.html#nt-decl > > Specifically the "duplication declaration" and "xsd prefix" > constraints. Both these things are not allowed. > OK, is it valid to explicitely assign the same URI to xsd datatypes prefix? I am asking because many sample grammars, including grammar for rng in the compact syntax contain explicit declaration of xsd datatypes prefix, while my understanding of the specification is that it is not allowed. David From jjc@jclark.com Sun Dec 7 01:17:04 2003 Received: from S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (p154.n-nypop03.stsn.com [199.106.90.154]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hB6IH4av041127 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2003 01:17:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.150.134.130] ([10.150.134.130]) by S-UTL01-NYNOC.stsn.com (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2003120613181128961 ; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:18:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200312061436.hB6EaR2a013123@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312061436.hB6EaR2a013123@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070734330.4232.124.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 01:12:10 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:17:06 -0000 On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 21:36, David Tolpin wrote: > [The specification] explicitly distinguishes between > the newline marker and \x{A}, Right. > and says that both newline markers and \x{A} > can be present in the stream after newline normalization. Right. > The grammar, further, > mentions newline marker separate from \x{A}; and I understand it is that the newline > marker is not any character but a special entry in the source stream. Right. Newline markers get introduced by newline normalization. > The grammar lists both &newline; and &#A; as line terminators. They are > separate in the grammar, and I understand that these are two different things. > Am I wrong? They are different things. > I would understand, if neither \x{A} nor \x{D} were line terminators or spaces, but > rather normal characters, disallowed everywhere but in literals. I just don't understand > the difference between xA and xD with regard to the language of the specification. Let me try again. The fact that \x{A} is a line terminator means I can write ## foo ## bar equivalently as ## foo\x{A}##bar Now consider x = """foo bar""" This is equivalent to x = """foo\x{A}bar" regardless of whether the newline was represented as #xA, #xD or #xD #xA in the input file. It is never equivalent to x """foo\x{D}bar""" Thus if for some reason my input schema must be a single line, the fact that \x{A} is treated is a line terminator is sufficient to allow this. I can turn my multi-line schema into a single-line schema by replacing each newline terminator by \x{A}. Allowing \x{D} as a line-terminator would not help, because transforming a schema by mapping a #xD into \x{D} sometimes changes the meaning of the schema (i.e. when the #xD is in a multiline string). James From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Dec 7 02:26:32 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB6JQTV3048913 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2003 02:26:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB6JOU3j013990 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:24:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB6JOUu9013989 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:24:30 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312061924.hB6JOUu9013989@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax In-Reply-To: <1070734330.4232.124.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:24:30 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:26:32 -0000 James, I think I understand it. Thank you. David From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Dec 8 06:58:25 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB7NwLXF036085 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 06:58:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB7NuF3j021237 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 03:56:15 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB7NuEiX021236 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 03:56:14 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312072356.hB7NuEiX021236@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 03:56:14 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] notAllowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:58:27 -0000 Hello, why is notAllowed only allowed as a child of an element? I am asking because I am trying to understand whether I will be able to validate against a grammar without moving notAllowed to the top of an element's pattern? On the other hand, if notAllowed is the only child of an element, can't that element simply be removed from the grammar? David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Dec 9 04:11:01 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB8LAusN043598 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 04:10:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB8L8i3j032301 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:08:44 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB8L8hA8032300 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:08:43 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312082108.hB8L8hA8032300@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:08:43 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] content-type for list X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:11:01 -0000 Hi, this is a formal question; I understand that path restrictions make it redundant. list's content-type is unconditionally set to simple(). Shouldn't it depend on the presence of a content-type for the list's child pattern? p:ct ------------------------ p: simple() David From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Tue Dec 9 22:29:13 2003 Received: from mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (juran.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.39]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB9FT8c7017014 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:29:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailr2.asahi-net.or.jp (mailr2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.212]) by mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FF05E56; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:29:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from [67.193.66.218] (1Cust218.tnt18.nyc3.da.uu.net [67.193.66.218]) by mailr2.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with ESMTP id hB9FStj10731; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:28:56 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:32:06 +0900 From: MURATA Makoto To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] content-type for list In-Reply-To: <200312082108.hB8L8hA8032300@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312082108.hB8L8hA8032300@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20031210002538.DD4E.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.06 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:29:18 -0000 On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:08:43 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > > list's content-type is unconditionally set to simple(). Shouldn't it depend on > the presence of a content-type for the list's child pattern? Note that "This rule does not apply to patterns occurring within a list pattern.". In fact, is perfectly fine. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu Dec 11 01:47:58 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBAIlqWN094406 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:47:58 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: ssykqgYGN66DU1kMssjrkg 1071082066 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C38046DCC0 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:47:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:47:45 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <57CA97E4-2B41-11D8-8A68-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [relaxng-user] xsd2rng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:48:01 -0000 OK, going back to my MODS schema example, which I've converted to RNG with the Sun conversion tool. Unfortunately, it strips the documentation and results in some odd (though workable) code in places. Here's is how the extension element -- designed to allow foreign namespaced content -- is defined in the xsd file: use for local extensions or for extensions from other XML schemas Full schema at: http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0.xsd And following is how it was transformed to RNG. I've cleaned this up a bit, and posted it here: http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods-3-0.rnc Is there not a better way to represent the above in RNG? | element extension { mixed { element0+ } } | recordInfo)+ ========== "element0" defined as so: ============ element0 = element * { mixed { (element0 | attribute * { text })* } } element1 = element * { mixed { (attribute * { text } | element1)* } } From Tom.Gaven@exostar.com Thu Dec 11 04:20:43 2003 Received: from NETMAIL01.exostar.com ([208.47.83.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBALKhBV023511 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2003 04:20:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: by NETMAIL02.exostar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:20:37 -0500 Message-ID: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC055614FA@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> From: Tom Gaven To: "'Bruce D'Arcus'" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] xsd2rng Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:20:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:20:49 -0000 Hi Bruce, Not that this is "better", but an alternative of: ... | element extension {mixed { element0+ } } | recordInfo)+ element0 = element * { mixed { (element0 | attribute * { text })* } } Might be: ... | element extension { anyElementOrText } | recordInfo)+ anyElementOrText = element * { attribute * { text } | text | anyElementOrText }* Also, you probably don't need your element1 define, it looks like it's the same as element0. AFAIK, RNG doesn't have an 'any' pattern, which might make your expression simpler, but why clutter up the syntax? It's perfect as is! tom -----Original Message----- From: Bruce D'Arcus [mailto:bdarcus@fastmail.fm] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:48 PM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] xsd2rng OK, going back to my MODS schema example, which I've converted to RNG with the Sun conversion tool. Unfortunately, it strips the documentation and results in some odd (though workable) code in places. Here's is how the extension element -- designed to allow foreign namespaced content -- is defined in the xsd file: use for local extensions or for extensions from other XML schemas Full schema at: http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0.xsd And following is how it was transformed to RNG. I've cleaned this up a bit, and posted it here: http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods-3-0.rnc Is there not a better way to represent the above in RNG? | element extension { mixed { element0+ } } | recordInfo)+ ========== "element0" defined as so: ============ element0 = element * { mixed { (element0 | attribute * { text })* } } element1 = element * { mixed { (attribute * { text } | element1)* } } _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From jjc@jclark.com Mon Dec 15 18:38:23 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBFBcK8u064919 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:38:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com (gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com [192.168.1.52]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hBFBc8520161; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:38:08 +0700 From: James Clark To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1071488287.16090.76.camel@gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG is now an International Standard X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:38:24 -0000 X-Original-Date: 15 Dec 2003 18:38:08 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:38:24 -0000 I have just been informed that RELAX NG was published by ISO as an International Standard on 1st December 2003. The full title is: ISO/IEC 19757-2:2003 Information technology -- Document Schema Definition Language (DSDL) -- Part 2: Regular-grammar-based validation -- RELAX NG Its ISO Catalogue entry is: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=37605 The text of the published standard is unfortunately not freely available. However, the FDIS text remains available from the SC34 Chairman's site: http://www.y12.doe.gov/sgml/sc34/document/0362_files/relaxng-is.pdf The only differences I have found between the FDIS text and the published standard are that the Foreword is slightly different and the cover page, headers and footers have been changed in accordance with its change in status. Even the pagination appears to be identical. James From jjc@jclark.com Mon Dec 15 18:44:16 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBFBiDMJ065679 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:44:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com (gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com [192.168.1.52]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hBFBi7520182 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:44:07 +0700 From: James Clark To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1071488647.16090.83.camel@gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Compact syntax ISO standardization X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:44:16 -0000 X-Original-Date: 15 Dec 2003 18:44:07 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:44:16 -0000 At its recent meeting in Philadelphia, SC34 (the body responsible for standardization of RELAX NG in ISO) resolved to proceed with the standardization of the compact syntax by preparing an amendment to the RELAX NG standard (ISO/IEC 19757-2) that adds a new normative Annex. This means that, if everything goes according to plan, the compact syntax will eventually be equal with the XML syntax as regards its standardization status. James From davidc@nag.co.uk Mon Dec 15 18:53:55 2003 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hBFBrsbr067086 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:53:54 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-15.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1071489225!2709645 X-StarScan-Version: 5.1.13; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 17614 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 11:53:45 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-15.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 11:53:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 9500 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2003 11:53:43 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 15 Dec 2003 11:53:43 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11195 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:53:21 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:53:20 GMT Message-Id: <200312151153.LAA24888@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id LAA24888; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:53:20 GMT From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <1071488287.16090.76.camel@gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com> (message from James Clark on 15 Dec 2003 18:38:08 +0700) References: <1071488287.16090.76.camel@gintonic.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [xml-dev] RELAX NG is now an International Standard X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:53:55 -0000 > I have just been informed that RELAX NG was published by ISO as an > International Standard on 1st December 2003. Are there plans to similarly standardise the compact syntax at ISO or as an OASIS standard rather than committee draft? David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Dec 16 01:00:40 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBFI0dWg030048 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 01:00:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBFHvMJR002646 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:57:22 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hBFI0XiR017684 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:00:34 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:00:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:00:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTD Developers to RNG" paper updated X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:00:41 -0000 See http://www.snee.com/xml/xml2003/06-04-05.html, where it will live from now on. I did the presentation version of it at XML 2003 in Philadelphia last week, and it went very well. Attendance at the talk was quite good considering that it was the last slot of the last day of the conference. At the end of the talk, Peter Flynn said from his chair "well, I'm converted"; I'm confident that others felt similarly. Especially now that it's an official ISO standard! Bob From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Dec 16 05:04:19 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBFM4FGH072388 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 05:04:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBFM3YVc006770 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:03:34 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBFM3XVK006769 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:03:33 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312152203.hBFM3XVK006769@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:03:33 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] ANN: Relax NG Compact Syntax validator in C X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:04:20 -0000 Hi, I've posted the first release of RNV, a Relax NG (Compact Syntax) validator (written in C), to http://davidashen.net/rnv.html . It is a part of an ongoing work; but the command line utility seems to be useful (for me, at least). The program has limitations and should have bugs; however, it validates docbook documents (as well as other grammars). A short description is at http://ftp.davidashen.net/PreTI/RNV/readme.txt ; the program is available with the full source code and should be easy to build in any unix-like environment. A windows executable (compiled with Borland C/C++ Builder) is included with the distribution. I've also successfully compiled and tested it in cygwin environment (the command-line utility uses Expat). David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Dec 16 05:55:56 2003 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBFMtt6w080564 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 05:55:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20031215225544.NQNO3849.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:55:44 +0000 Message-ID: <3FDE3BDA.7010008@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:55:22 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031105 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] ANN: Relax NG Compact Syntax validator in C References: <200312152203.hBFM3XVK006769@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200312152203.hBFM3XVK006769@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:55:56 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: >I've posted the first release of RNV, a Relax NG (Compact Syntax) validator (written in C), > I'm impressed! It ate all my test files at first go, at lightning speed, and gave a good error report when I introduced a mistake. 65000 lines of the TEI Guidelines in 1.9 seconds, 5 times faster than jing. Datatype checking would be good one day..... Thanks for this! Sebastian Rahtz From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Dec 16 06:02:22 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBFN2Ij5081780 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 06:02:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBFN1OVc007469; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:01:24 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBFN1NxQ007468; Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:01:23 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312152301.hBFN1NxQ007468@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] ANN: Relax NG Compact Syntax validator in C In-Reply-To: <3FDE3BDA.7010008@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> To: Sebastian Rahtz Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:01:23 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:02:22 -0000 > David Tolpin wrote: > > >I've posted the first release of RNV, a Relax NG (Compact Syntax) validator (written in C), > > > I'm impressed! It ate all my test files at first go, at lightning speed, > and gave a good error report > when I introduced a mistake. Sebastian, thank you for the response and the test drive, I would be thankful for making the test files available. I am especially interested in files with errors. > > 65000 lines of the TEI Guidelines in 1.9 seconds, 5 times faster than > jing. Datatype checking > would be good one day..... jing is written in Java; it memoizes better, and with longer sequences will be faster. jing also treats attributes in a finer manner, reporting name and value errors separately. James Clark has provided very detailed instructions for implementors of Relax NG validation, and with regard to the basic algorith, I have mostly followed the guidelines (and looked at nxml and jing). I am going to use this module to implement validating mode for an editor. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Dec 17 17:36:05 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBHAa19e098023 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:36:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBHAZAVc020249 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:35:10 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBHAZA4u020248 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:35:10 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312171035.hBHAZA4u020248@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:35:10 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:36:06 -0000 Hi, supposing a validator supports XML Schema Datatypes library; and a schema is passed to the validator which uses a type named xsd:obscure-datatype-name-not-present-in-the-library. Is the schema correct (with respect to the datatype)? I am trying to determine it from the specification. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Dec 21 05:14:46 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBKMEg8K066039 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 05:14:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBKMDTVc060041 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:13:29 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBKMDS7Q060040 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:13:28 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312202213.hBKMDS7Q060040@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:13:28 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] include/include? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:14:46 -0000 Hi, why include is not allowed inside include content? That is, what is the reason? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Dec 21 07:35:49 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBL0ZkKM082087 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:47 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBL0YWVc060835 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:34:32 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBL0YW0A060834 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:34:32 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312210034.hBL0YW0A060834@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:34:32 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] xsd: pattern X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:35:49 -0000 Is the following datatype valid? xsd:string {pattern="[----[-]]"} ? From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Sun Dec 21 11:49:42 2003 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBL4neJM011461 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:49:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j125245.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.125.245]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E0C6C4E; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:49:38 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:46:19 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <200312171035.hBHAZA4u020248@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312171035.hBHAZA4u020248@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20031221132757.A167.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:49:46 -0000 On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:35:10 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > supposing a validator supports XML Schema Datatypes library; and a schema is passed > to the validator which uses a type named xsd:obscure-datatype-name-not-present-in-the-library. > Is the schema correct (with respect to the datatype)? A validator that claims to support a datatype library is NOT required to detect incorrect type names, incorrect parameter names and values, and incorrect values (i.e., the content of ) in that datatype library. This is my understanding of the RELAX NG spec and "Guidelines for using W3C XML Schema Datatypes with RELAX NG". Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Dec 26 19:50:20 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBQCoGXf098073 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:50:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBQCmTVc038820 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:48:29 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBQCmShQ038819 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:48:28 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312261248.hBQCmShQ038819@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:48:28 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] ANN: RNV, XML Schema datatypes implemented X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:50:22 -0000 Hi, I've update RNV, http://davidashen.net/rnv.html, a Relax NG (compact syntax) validator in ANSI C. The main news is that I have implemented XML Schema datatypes, with the following limitations: - ordering for duration is not implemented (that is, equality is working but restricting facets are not); - only local parts of QName values are checked for equality, ENTITY values are only checked for lexical validity. On the bright side, the support for datatypes includes an implementation of unicode regular expressions (in XML Schema syntax). I've run it through 1117 NIST datatype tests, and the only tests which pass when they should not are due to double overflow and underflows (double is not 64 bit IEEE on my computer). I've also tested the validator itself with everything I could find (that is, I run it on many Relax NG and XML Schema files using rng grammars for rng and xs, and tried avaiable Relax NG on many speciments of the formats they are written for). As a results, error reporting is improved, bugs fixed. News and updates are at http://davidashen.net/ David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Dec 27 02:53:03 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBQJr0fq053160 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:53:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBQJpBVc041009 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:51:11 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBQJpARi041008 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:51:10 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312261951.hBQJpARi041008@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:51:09 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] checking for syntax of datatypeLibrary and ns attributes X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:53:05 -0000 The specification says: : In addition to the attributes shown explicitly, any element can have an ns : attribute and any element can have a datatypeLibrary attribute. The ns : attribute can have any value. The value of the datatypeLibrary attribute must : match the anyURI symbol as described in the previous paragraph; in addition, it : must not use the relative form of URI reference and must not have a fragment : identifier; as an exception to this, the value may be the empty string. Are both 'ns' and 'datatypeLibrary' restricted to be absolute URIs with no fragment identifier, or just datatypeLibrary? David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Dec 30 02:27:29 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBTJRPLg091317 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:27:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBTJPGVc086457 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:25:17 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBTJPCMx086437 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:25:12 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312291925.hBTJPCMx086437@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:25:11 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] NIST tests for datatypes X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:27:30 -0000 Hi, there is a NIST testsuite that checks XML schema datatypes for conformance, http://xw2k.sdct.itl.nist.gov/brady/schema/NISTSchemaTests.zip Below are two simple transformations that convert xml schema test files (there are 1117 tiny schema files) into Relax NG (or Relax NG Compat). Could be useful for implementors and users. David Tolpin default namespace = "-NS" namespace xsi = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" start = element { attribute xsi:schemaLocation { text } ? , } xsd: { ="" } From uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com Wed Dec 31 03:51:12 2003 Received: from borgia.local ([67.72.109.17]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBUKpBVH012470 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:51:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: by borgia.local (Postfix, from userid 500) id 646CC1339A9; Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:41:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by borgia.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AB41338C5; Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:41:30 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: Uche Ogbuji To: Dave Kuhlman Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Python support for RELAX NG? In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Kuhlman of "Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:08:16 PST." <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:41:25 -0700 Sender: uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com Message-Id: <20031230194130.646CC1339A9@borgia.local> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:51:14 -0000 > > Is there someplace I can look for Python support for RELAX NG? > > I searched the RELAX NG email list archives and also did a Web > search. > > I've found A.M. Kuchling's parser for the XML syntax, and I'm > looking into that. > > I've written quite a bit of a parser for the compact syntax. I'm > using PLY to build the parser: http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/. > I'd like to know if it's already been done before continuing. I maintain notes at http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/akara/nodes/2003-12-30/relaxng-python -- Uche Ogbuji Fourthought, Inc. http://uche.ogbuji.net http://4Suite.org http://fourthought.com xmltramp and pxdom - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/12/17/py-xml.html More Gems From the Mines - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/11/12/py-xml.html Learning Objects Metadata - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x -think21.html Python Web services developer: The real world, Part 1 - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-pyth14/ The State of the Python-XML Art, 2003 - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/09/10/py. html Objects. Encapsulation. XML? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=8596 From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Dec 31 03:52:44 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBUKqeNj012711 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:52:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBUKoQVc005028 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:50:26 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBUKoPGP005027 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:50:25 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312302050.hBUKoPGP005027@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:50:25 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] re: Document/schema association proposal X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:52:45 -0000 Hi, I have been looking at Document/schema association proposal, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/259; I was going to implement it. Essentially, the problem the solution is solving is classifying 1) strings (URIs) 2) xml files according to a number of templates and their ordering. The rules in the proposal are about matching the strings and files against informally defined templates. Since it is done in a framework of a language (Relax NG), which purpose is to define templates for xml documents in a regular way, it would be natural to just use Relax NG itself for classification. In a similar way, regular expressions for strings, in any of accepted syntaxes, can be used to filter URIs. Below is a sample document/schema association, expressed in terms of regular expressions for URIs and Relax NG grammars for documents. It is actually the utility I am using for my work. The glue is perl, but it can as well be written in xml, and interpeted using e-lisp, C, or any other language. In particular, XML template for XSLT documents checks for either the root element being stylesheet or transform or a child of the root element being template (for literal result elements as documents). my $TMPDIR="/tmp"; my $RNGDIR="/usr/local/share/rng-c"; my %SCHEMAS=( docbook=>"docbook.rnc", xslt=>"xslt.rnc", xhtml=>"xhtml.rnc", xslfo=>"fo.rnc", relaxng=>"relaxng.rnc" ); my $ANY=<$f"; print RNC $rnc; close RNC; system("rnv -q $f $uri 2>/dev/null"); unlink $f; return !$?; } In particular, NOTXSLT rules allows to recognize literal result elements as documents by contents. I first though had been to use XSLT to match XML documents, but then I realized that Relax NG is better suited for this purpose. One can argue that it is a slow approach. Determining file type by content for a 5 megabytes file takes 1.5 seconds witn rnv, and it parses the whole document even if the root element is notAllowed. Sincerely, David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Dec 31 03:56:46 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hBUKugGB013323 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:56:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBUKsTVc005117 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:54:29 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hBUKsTs6005116 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:54:29 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312302054.hBUKsTs6005116@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] re: Document/schema association proposal To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:54:29 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:56:46 -0000 > In particular, XML template for XSLT documents checks for either the root element > being stylesheet or transform or a child of the root element being template (for > literal result elements as documents). Ignore this paragraph, the right one is after the code. I somehow forgot to remove it during editing. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Jan 4 23:28:53 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i04GSnGa075383 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 23:28:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i04GQ6jE009771 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:26:06 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i04GQ4BC009770 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:26:04 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401041626.i04GQ4BC009770@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:26:04 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] detecting a pattern for any? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:28:56 -0000 Hi, I am using the derivative-based validation for Relax NG (as described by James Clark). I would like to detect that the rest of a grammar matches any element, that is any = (element * {any}|attribute * {text}|text)* but got stuck trying to write the correct algorithm. What is the right way to do it? David From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jan 5 07:29:38 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i050TbFW023825 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:29:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D43A8CD4; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:29:30 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 09:33:25 +0900 From: MURATA Makoto To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] detecting a pattern for any? In-Reply-To: <200401041626.i04GQ4BC009770@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200401041626.i04GQ4BC009770@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040105091806.D33F.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.06 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 00:29:40 -0000 On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:26:04 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > > but got stuck trying to write the correct algorithm. What is the right way to do it? It is not difficult to examine if a given regular tree grammar allows any tree. I am aware of two efficient algorithms. Haruo Hosoya. Regular Expression Types for XML. PhD thesis, The University of Tokyo, December 2000. http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~hahosoya/papers/phdth.ps Akihiko Tozawa, Masami Hagiya: XML Schema Containment Checking Based on Semi-implicit Techniques. CIAA 2003: 213-225 However, it is not easy to examine if a given RELAX NG grammar allows any element. There are three problems: attribute-element constraints, interleave, and datatypes. The next paper addresses the first, but does not address the second and third. Haruo Hosoya and Makoto Murata. Validation and boolean operations for attribute-element constraints. In Programming Languages Technologies for XML (PLAN-X), pages 1-10, 2002. http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~hahosoya/papers/attelm.ps I am aware of some works in interleave, but nothing has been published yet. Datatypes are just difficult. However, practically, we can assume that xsd:string without facets allow any strings and the other datatypes disallows some strings. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 6 02:07:27 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i05J7NWb063730 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i05J4XjE019445 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:04:33 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i05J4WcR019444 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:04:32 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401051904.i05J4WcR019444@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] detecting a pattern for any? In-Reply-To: <20040105091806.D33F.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:04:32 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:07:31 -0000 > > It is not difficult to examine if a given regular tree grammar allows any tree. > I am aware of two efficient algorithms. Thanks a lot, I've downloaded the papers and read them; but have realised that I should not try to find a general solution. http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200401/msg00022.html Instead, I should just detect that a pattern is generated from a common way to write 'the rest is anything', that is, any = (element *{any}|attribute *{text}|text)* with some variations. I've implemented it, and now ARX only parses the document as far as it is required to make a decision. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 6 22:16:41 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i06FGbdU023383 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:16:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i06FDgjE038639 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:13:42 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i06FDgrq038638 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:13:42 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:13:41 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] MIME type for Relax NG Compact? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:16:43 -0000 Hi, I have found the following discussion: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200204/msg00056.html but cannot find an answer anywhere that resolves it. Is there an etablished media type for Relax NG Compact? If it is, what is it? David From veillard@redhat.com Wed Jan 7 00:44:41 2004 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i06HifEW048210 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:44:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i06HieA17054 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:40 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i06HieE27790 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:40 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06HiRVU009779 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:27 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06HiR2k009777 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:27 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20040106174427.GF20625@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: [relaxng-user] Relax NG Compact testsuite ? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:44:43 -0000 I looked around at Oasis and on relaxng.org and didn't found a testsuite for the Compact syntax. Is there something available ? A core version can probably be generated by translating the XML version of the test suite but I think specific test would be useful too (c.f. the tokenization questions from a couple of weeks ago). thanks, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Jan 7 00:50:17 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i06HoEAI049077 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:50:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i06HlIjE040101 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:47:18 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i06HlI8j040100 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:47:18 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401061747.i06HlI8j040100@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Relax NG Compact testsuite ? In-Reply-To: <20040106174427.GF20625@redhat.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:47:18 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:50:18 -0000 > I looked around at Oasis and on relaxng.org and didn't found a testsuite > for the Compact syntax. Is there something available ? A core version > can probably be generated by translating the XML version of the test suite > but I think specific test would be useful too (c.f. the tokenization > questions from a couple of weeks ago). Not really a testsuite, but a number of hand-written (as opposed to generated by Trang) grammars comes with nxml-emacs-mode. They are all correct, so will not help with error diagnostics, but have a range of features broad enough to assist testing. David From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Jan 7 04:20:05 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i06LJwbm084511 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:20:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C398FBC4F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:19:19 +0100 (CET) From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1073423989.1032.320.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:19:49 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] [Announce] RELAX NG, A Simpler Schema Language for XML X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:20:07 -0000 Hi, I am happy to announce that the first edition of my RELAX NG book should now be available in the bookstores. You'll find plenty of information on line, but be cautious about what you'll read on Amazon.com (the other Amazon local sites are more accurate): the book has been published December 2003 (instead of July) and it has 506 pages (instead of 304). Why 506 pages when my W3C XML Schema book has only 400 pages and RELAX NG supposed to be much simpler than W3C XML Schema? There are many reasons for this. First it has been much more fun to write about RELAX NG than to write about W3C XML Schema and when you like a subject you tend to be more verbose. In particular, I have been able to go much deeper in the "core" of RELAX NG and have gone as far as writing a (partial, shame on me) implementation of RELAX NG to make sure I was understanding the specification as well as possible. That means that I have been able to cover a much deeper scope in the RELAX NG book. I have also added chapters developing some options to generate schemas and to annotate them to be able to transform them. These are topics that could apply to other schema languages but they were not mature enough (at least in my brain) to be included in my WXS book. Then RELAX NG is frequently used with W3C XML Schema part 2: datatypes. Since we have not wanted to require that you buy both books (of course, we'll be happy if you do it) we have included the chapters from my W3C XML Schema book about datatypes (updated and adapted to the context and syntax of RELAX NG). That includes the descriptions of the datatypes, their facets, the WXS regular expression and the reference guide. There is also a purely typographical factor: for each example I have taken care to give both the XML and the compact syntax of the schemas and that has added a lot of content. The last reason is that, as mentioned a couple of weeks ago (http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200312/msg00360.html) it's not always that much easier to explain something which is simple and coherent than something which is complex and heterogeneous. To explain something which is simple and coherent (think for instance of a perfect sphere), you need to find a starting point and the design doesn't help you that much to find a logical progression. To explain something which is complex and heterogeneous (think for instance of a snowman) you just need to describe each of the parts and their interactions. Anyway, you'll get 506 pages for the price of 304 and I hope you'll find them useful and enjoy them! Eric PS: The online version (http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/) will be updated when the DocBook sources will have been synchronised with the paper version. -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Wed Jan 7 06:26:22 2004 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i06NQLt8021493 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:26:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06NGWJR004500 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:16:37 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06NQ7iR007196 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:26:07 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06gb.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:26:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:26:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] no schemaType="application/xml-dtd" for jing NRL, right? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:26:24 -0000 As long as jing's NRL implementation can validate documents from multiple namespaces at once, and it's using Xerces for XSD schemas, I was hoping that it could use Xerces to validate documents against DTDs as well. The error message "fatal: The markup in the document preceding the root element must be well-formed" for the DTD file shows me that it expects the schema to be some sort of well-formed XML schema, so I understand. But it would have been cool. Unless I'm missing something... Bob From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Jan 7 21:12:24 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i07ECM2s027324 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:12:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D098E7802; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:12:20 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:08:56 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for Relax NG Compact? In-Reply-To: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040107225833.A57A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:12:26 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:13:41 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > Is there an etablished media type for Relax NG Compact? If it is, > what is it? No, there are no such media types yet. If we can live with the vendor tree (*/vnd.*), it is not so difficult to register a media type. However, it we would like to use the IETF tree, we need an ISO standard. (There are some technical problems such as versioning of the compact syntax.) In my understanding, James will create PDAM (proposed draft amendement) for the RELAX NG compact syntax soon. It will probably become an AM (AMedment) to ISO/IEC 19757-2 next year. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Jan 7 23:49:57 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i07GnvAu053058 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:49:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999B82504E0 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:49:53 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040107164903.025d6c40@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:49:59 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] [Announce] RELAX NG, A Simpler Schema Language for XML In-Reply-To: <1073423989.1032.320.camel@delleric> References: <1073423989.1032.320.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:49:58 -0000 At 21:19 06/01/2004, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >Hi, > >I am happy to announce that the first edition of my RELAX NG book should >now be available in the bookstores. Congratulations Eric. +1 to relax-ng too? regards DaveP From Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com Fri Jan 9 23:38:18 2004 Received: from pinea.xerox.fr (pinea.xerox.fr [217.109.185.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09GcHBB040583 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:38:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09A2586A2 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:26:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 09387-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:26:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (unknown [13.202.220.10]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B925868E for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:26:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.103]) by meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id i09Gc59W013005 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:38:05 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200401091638.i09Gc59W013005@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:38:05 +0100 (MET) From: Ken Beesley To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: lfQ9fBM+Ch0W6y8i0ioOzw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.2_04 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at example.com Subject: [relaxng-user] How to match any string _except_ s1, s2, s3 ? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ken Beesley List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:38:18 -0000 Question: How to match any string _except_ s1, s2, s3 ? In RELAX NG, is there a way to match any string-type attribute value _except_ an enumerated list of values? I.e. a _positive_ enumeration, to match either title="Root" or title="root" might be Root root or [Rr]oot but what if you want to match title="AnyStringHere" but with the added condition that "AnyStringHere" _not_ be "root" or "Root"? One might imagine an element, e.g. Root root Or, one could imagine negative pattern matching, e.g. [Rr]oot Is there anything like this available? Have I missed something? Ken ********************************************************************** Kenneth R. Beesley ken.beesley@xrce.xerox.com Xerox Research Centre Europe Tel from France: 04 76 61 50 64 6, chemin de Maupertuis Tel from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 64 38240 MEYLAN Fax from France: 04 76 61 50 99 France Fax from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 99 XRCE page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com Personal page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com/people/beesley/beesley.html ********************************************************************** From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Jan 9 23:47:51 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09Glmqv042091 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:47:50 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i09GiYjE000185 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:44:34 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i09GiYx5000184; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:44:34 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401091644.i09GiYx5000184@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] How to match any string _except_ s1, s2, s3 ? In-Reply-To: <200401091638.i09Gc59W013005@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:44:34 +0400 (AMT) CC: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:47:52 -0000 > Question: How to match any string _except_ s1, s2, s3 ? > Yes, the pattern is except pattern. In compact syntax: start = element * { xsd:token - xsd:token {pattern="[Rr]oot"} } or start = element * { token - ("Root"|"root") } will match any single element with any content besides Root or root, namespace normalized. In XML syntax, it is . David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Fri Jan 9 23:55:45 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09Gti6O043299 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:55:45 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A67F24DC6B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:55:39 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040109165514.0267b738@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:55:41 +0000 To: Ken Beesley , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] How to match any string _except_ s1, s2, s3 ? In-Reply-To: <200401091638.i09Gc59W013005@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> References: <200401091638.i09Gc59W013005@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:55:45 -0000 At 16:38 09/01/2004, Ken Beesley wrote: >Question: How to match any string _except_ s1, s2, s3 ? > > >In RELAX NG, is there a way to match any string-type >attribute value _except_ an enumerated list of values? http://www.dpawson.co.uk/relaxng/schema/string.html#d345e181 Thanks Ken, thats the first time the faq has been used :-) DaveP From drach@eng.sun.com Sat Jan 10 03:22:29 2004 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09KMSLu078255 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:22:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from heliopolis.sfbay.sun.com ([152.70.1.39]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09KMMj4027828 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sml-xhost (sml-xhost [152.70.10.52]) by heliopolis.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6/ENSMAIL, v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i09KMMx07690 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:22:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:22:22 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Drach X-X-Sender: drach@sml-xhost To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] (no subject) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: steve.drach@sun.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:22:29 -0000 I'm trying to define an attribute that can have a list of one or more (up to three) mutually exclusive values. For example, all the following are valid: But these are not valid: So, I tried to specify the element and attribute as follows: hide show enable disable raise lower However, when I run jing on this to verify it, I get the following message: test.rng:8:31: error: interleave of "string" or "data" element I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong here. Hopefully someone will educate me. Secondly, since this is wrong, is there a way to correctly specify this? From drach@eng.sun.com Sat Jan 10 03:58:23 2004 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09KwMG5084718 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:58:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from heliopolis.sfbay.sun.com ([152.70.1.39]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09KwA0H021868; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sml-xhost (sml-xhost [152.70.10.52]) by heliopolis.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i09Kw9x09373; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:58:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:58:09 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Drach X-X-Sender: drach@sml-xhost To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040109203124.02684cf8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040109203124.02684cf8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: steve.drach@sun.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:58:23 -0000 > try tokens instead of string. Not quite sure what you mean. Are you suggesting this: hide show hide show instead of this: hide show > alternative is the brute force approach, Hopefully I can avoid this. From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 10 04:00:21 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09L0Hr0085219 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:00:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i09Kv3jE010690 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:57:03 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i09Kv3Dr010689 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:57:03 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401092057.i09Kv3Dr010689@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] (no subject) In-Reply-To: To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:57:03 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:00:21 -0000 > However, when I run jing on this to verify it, I get the following > message: > > test.rng:8:31: error: interleave of "string" or "data" element > The specification explains this in 7.2 String sequences. One cannot have strings interleaved or grouped. Thus you are probably out of luck unless you list all combinations of attribute constituents. xsd:token { pattern=... } would be a remedy, but XML Schema regular expressions do not provide interleave. I'd say that Relax NG needs a datatype library with regular expressions matching the XML regular syntax. David Tolpin From jcowan@reutershealth.com Sat Jan 10 04:42:54 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09Lgsre092248 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:42:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01600; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:42:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:42:43 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: Steve Drach Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] (no subject) Message-ID: <20040109214243.GD2666@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:42:55 -0000 Steve Drach scripsit: > However, when I run jing on this to verify it, I get the following > message: > > test.rng:8:31: error: interleave of "string" or "data" element > > I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong here. You have stepped on one of the very few arbitrary restrictions of RNG: you can't interleave typed data, only elements and text. You could write a bit of XSLT to generate all the cases. There are 27 logical cases. The 1 zero-feature case can be written in 1 way. The 6 one-feature cases can be written in 1 way each. The 12 two-features cases can be written in 2 ways each. The 8 three-feature cases can be written in 6 ways each. Total physical cases: 79. -- The man that wanders far jcowan@reutershealth.com from the walking tree http://www.reutershealth.com --first line of a non-existent poem by: John Cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 10 04:58:40 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i09LwbYJ094689 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:58:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i09LtMjE011149 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:55:22 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i09LtMjZ011148 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:55:22 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401092155.i09LtMjZ011148@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20040109214243.GD2666@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:55:22 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:58:41 -0000 > You have stepped on one of the very few arbitrary restrictions of RNG: > you can't interleave typed data, only elements and text. > > You could write a bit of XSLT to generate all the cases. > There are 27 logical cases. > > The 1 zero-feature case can be written in 1 way. > The 6 one-feature cases can be written in 1 way each. > The 12 two-features cases can be written in 2 ways each. > The 8 three-feature cases can be written in 6 ways each. > > Total physical cases: 79. > One should not go so far. Relax NG is not that bad. hl=("hide"|"show")? ed=("enable"|"disable")? lr=("raise"|"lower")? state=attribute state {list { (hl,((ed,lr)|(lr,ed))) | (lr,((hl,ed)|(ed,hl))) | (ed,((hl,lr)|(lr,hl)))}} start = element test { state } Choice is allowed. But in general, regular expressions with interleave would help. David From drach@eng.sun.com Sat Jan 10 23:56:49 2004 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0AGum7V028624 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:56:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from heliopolis.sfbay.sun.com ([152.70.1.39]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0AGug0H014292 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (vpn-129-150-16-197.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.16.197]) by heliopolis.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6/ENSMAIL, v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i0AGufx14624 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:56:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:56:42 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Drach X-X-Sender: drach@petea To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <200401092155.i09LtMjZ011148@adat.davidashen.net> Message-ID: References: <200401092155.i09LtMjZ011148@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: steve.drach@sun.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:56:49 -0000 > hl=("hide"|"show")? > ed=("enable"|"disable")? > lr=("raise"|"lower")? > > state=attribute state {list { > (hl,((ed,lr)|(lr,ed))) > | (lr,((hl,ed)|(ed,hl))) > | (ed,((hl,lr)|(lr,hl)))}} > > start = element test { state } Thanks all for your help. David Tolpin's solution above works perfectly. I'm just a newbie at this, but it sure makes schema writing more pleasurable. From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Sun Jan 11 20:02:02 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0BD21vd062866 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:02:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638C7819E; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:01:59 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:58:32 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <20031221132757.A167.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> References: <200312171035.hBHAZA4u020248@adat.davidashen.net> <20031221132757.A167.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Message-Id: <20040111215510.799A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:02:03 -0000 On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:46:19 +0900 "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" wrote: > > A validator that claims to support a datatype library is NOT required to detect > incorrect type names, incorrect parameter names and values, and incorrect values > (i.e., the content of ) in that datatype library. This is my understanding > of the RELAX NG spec and "Guidelines for using W3C XML Schema Datatypes with RELAX NG". I am afraid that I made a mistake. The last para of 4.16 is very clear. A data or value element must be correct in its use of datatypes. Specifically, the type attribute must identify a datatype within the datatype library identified by the value of the datatypeLibrary attribute. For a data element, the parameter list must be one that is allowed by the datatype (see Section 6.2.8). -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Jan 11 20:07:22 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0BD7JZI063323 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:07:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0BD3rjE026714 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:03:53 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0BD3rCL026713 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:03:53 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401111303.i0BD3rCL026713@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <20040111215510.799A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:03:53 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:07:22 -0000 > > On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:46:19 +0900 > "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" wrote: > > > > > A validator that claims to support a datatype library is NOT required to detect > > incorrect type names, incorrect parameter names and values, and incorrect values > > (i.e., the content of ) in that datatype library. This is my understanding > > of the RELAX NG spec and "Guidelines for using W3C XML Schema Datatypes with RELAX NG". > > I am afraid that I made a mistake. The last para of 4.16 is very clear. > > A data or value element must be correct in its use of datatypes. Specifically, > the type attribute must identify a datatype within the datatype library > identified by the value of the datatypeLibrary attribute. For a data > element, the parameter list must be one that is allowed by the datatype > (see Section 6.2.8). Yes. And the problem, is that a datatypeLibrary, in the way it is specified, does not provide means to check for it until the validation process reaches an attribute. The two privitives are datatypeAllows and datatypeEqual. There is no datatypeValid, while it should be, in my opinion. Or am I getting this wrong? David From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Sun Jan 11 20:20:36 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0BDKY4S064569 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:20:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64236E0F; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:20:31 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:17:06 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <200401111303.i0BD3rCL026713@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040111215510.799A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <200401111303.i0BD3rCL026713@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040111221444.79A3.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:20:36 -0000 On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:03:53 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > > Yes. And the problem, is that a datatypeLibrary, in the way it is specified, does not > provide means to check for it until the validation process reaches an attribute. I think that this is an API issue. The RELAX NG Datatype API in Java provides DatatypeException. http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/api/datatype/org/relaxng/datatype/DatatypeBuilder.html Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Jan 11 20:26:32 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0BDQSPi065076 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:26:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0BDN3jE026840 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:23:03 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0BDN3ac026839 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:23:03 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401111323.i0BDN3ac026839@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <20040111221444.79A3.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:23:03 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:26:32 -0000 > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:03:53 +0400 (AMT) > David Tolpin wrote: > > > > > Yes. And the problem, is that a datatypeLibrary, in the way it is specified, does not > > provide means to check for it until the validation process reaches an attribute. > > I think that this is an API issue. The RELAX NG Datatype API in Java provides > DatatypeException. > > http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/api/datatype/org/relaxng/datatype/DatatypeBuilder.html There are other languages besides Java. The specification does not reference the Java API. The XML Schema datatypes guidelines are not any datatype library guidelines. Either the specification should state that a relax ng with datatypes not conforming to the datatype library which is claimed to be supported is incorrect, and then datatypeValid should be mentioned with datatypeAllows and datatypeEqual, or this should be a validation error which should not be reported until a corresponding data or value is met. These two approaches are mutually exclusive. The current specification suggests that they should not affect schema's correctness, only document validity. RNV (http://davidashen.net/rnv.html) follows it. But in my opinion it is not how it should be specified. David Tolpin From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jan 12 15:07:57 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0C87tbZ090928 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:07:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5048245 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:07:53 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:04:28 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <200401111323.i0BDN3ac026839@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040111221444.79A3.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <200401111323.i0BDN3ac026839@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040112165813.79A6.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:07:57 -0000 > Either the specification should state that a relax ng with datatypes not conforming > to the datatype library which is claimed to be supported is incorrect, and then I think that this is exactly what the specification does in the last para of 4.16. A schema is incorrect if it references to a non-existent datatype or specify incorrect parameters in some datatype library. If a RELAX NG validator supports this datatype library, it is required to report that this schema is invalid. Am I missing something again? -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Jan 12 17:18:01 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CAHvRq005305 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:18:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CAERjE034782 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:14:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CAERXx034781 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:14:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401121014.i0CAERXx034781@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <20040112165813.79A6.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:14:26 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:18:02 -0000 > > > Either the specification should state that a relax ng with datatypes not conforming > > to the datatype library which is claimed to be supported is incorrect, and then > > I think that this is exactly what the specification does in the last para of 4.16. > A schema is incorrect if it references to a non-existent datatype or > specify incorrect parameters in some datatype library. If a RELAX NG > validator supports this datatype library, it is required to report that > this schema is invalid. Am I missing something again? 1) In my opinion, there is no provision in the specification to check for these constraints. : 6.2.8. data and value pattern : ... : A datatype library provides two services. : : * It can determine whether a string is a legal representation : of a datatype. This service accepts a list of zero or more : parameters. For example, a string datatype might have a parameter : specifying the length of a string. The datatype library determines : what parameters are applicable for each datatype. : : * It can determine whether two strings represent the same value : of a datatype. This service does not have any parameters. There is no service in a datatype library that helps check for these constraints. 2) Section 4.16 does not specify whether a schema with a value that is not allowed by its datatype is valid or not. These issues are not nitpicking. I would not raise my voice if they were. The problem for me is that I am trying to realize the correct point(s) to plug datatypeLibraries into Relax NG validator. And it turns out that: - the current specification is underspecified and contradictory (issue with the value and inability of a datatypeLibrary to check whether a type is valid); - an approach when a datatype library has only one connection -- at validation time -- is clean but defers checks till actual data is met; - an approach when a datatype library is checked during parsing would work if datatypeLibrary definition was changed to provide the corresponding service. However, that means that a datatype is no more a qname, but an opaque object, which -- and not its library -- provides methods datatypeAllows and datatypeEqual. My impression is that, despite the claim of extensibility, the current specification is tailored towards use of a limited predefined set of datatype libraries. The Datatype Library Java API is good in the sense that it follows the latter approach. But the specification is contradictory for anyone who is going to implement extensible datatypes. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Jan 12 18:03:08 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CB34R9010244 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:03:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CAxXjE034952 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:59:33 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CAxXCj034951 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:59:33 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401121059.i0CAxXCj034951@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:59:33 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:03:08 -0000 ... And while discussing it is beyond the scope of relaxng-user, my feeling is a datatype library that checks for ordering and value space constraints is a mesalliance for Relax NG. One does not expect to provide ordering constraints for 2004 01 12 Why should one use them for date="2004/01/12" ? Instead, adding one parameter to built-in datatypes, namely 'pattern' with regular expressions with interleave (and forgetting about pluggable datatype libraries), would do much more for convenience of use of Relax NG. And deprecating 'list', which I don't mind having, but it is a hack. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jan 12 20:56:41 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CDudof030522 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:56:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B71AC63; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:56:38 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:53:12 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <200401121014.i0CAERXx034781@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040112165813.79A6.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <200401121014.i0CAERXx034781@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040112224335.79A9.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i0CDudof030522 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:56:41 -0000 > 1) In my opinion, there is no provision in the specification to check for these > constraints. ... > > There is no service in a datatype library that helps check for these constraints. I now have better understanding your point. You would like to create a RELAX NG validator, which can play with any datatype library implementation. Thus, the interface between validators and datatype library implementations has to be powerful enough to detect all incorrect schemas. Although such an interface is certainly API dependent, you would like the RELAX NG spec to define an abstract mechanism. Such an abstract mechanism helps implementors to design APIs, especially because the RELAX NG spec already provides datatypeEqual and datatypeAllows. Is this your point? > 2) Section 4.16 does not specify whether a schema with a value that is not allowed > by its datatype is valid or not. This is true. I think this is a bug. -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Jan 12 21:06:51 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CE6kS3032167 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:06:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CE3EjE036729 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:03:14 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CE3Ext036728 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:03:14 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401121403.i0CE3Ext036728@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <20040112224335.79A9.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:03:14 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:06:51 -0000 > like the RELAX NG spec to define an abstract mechanism. Such an abstract mechanism > helps implementors to design APIs, especially because the RELAX NG spec already provides > datatypeEqual and datatypeAllows. Is this your point? Almost. I would like RELAX NG spec to either refrain from specification of services a datatypeLibrary provides, or to specify them fully. Actually, RNV has exactly on point of plugging a datatype library in, and reports all errors (that is, it says that a certain type has incorrect parameters or name or value), except that type errors are delayed till the validation stage. This lazy evaluation of grammar is not fully conformant, but allows use of datatype libraries with the same services provided as described by the spec. > > > 2) Section 4.16 does not specify whether a schema with a value that is not allowed > > by its datatype is valid or not. > > This is true. I think this is a bug. > A bug in which direction? Should a schema with a QName value with namespace prefix not declared in the schema be rejected? David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Jan 12 21:12:52 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CECl6Q033178 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:12:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CE9CjE036765 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:09:12 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CE9CdQ036764 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:09:12 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401121409.i0CE9CdQ036764@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:09:12 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] ANN: RVP, validation pipe for RNV X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:12:54 -0000 Hi, this is an announcement of release 1.4 or RNV, http://davidashen.net/rnv.html . To facilitate the embedding of RNV into heterogeneous environments, I have developed RVP, a pipe that expects validation primitives on one end and emits validation diagnostics from the other. Embedding examples in Perl and Python are provided; I believe that, on the day of writing it, these are the fastest and most conformant (if not the only) Relax NG validation solutions for these languages. Several changes have been made to the core modules, mostly to provide better separation of layers. This solution will work everywhere where pipe() call is available in C; that is, most modern Unixen, as well as cygwin. I have tested it with perl 5.005 and python 2.2 under FreeBSD, Linux and Win32/cygwin. I am willing to provide a sample for Ruby too, but I had spent the Sunday learning python; ruby will take another day. David Tolpini http://davidashen.net/ From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jan 12 21:39:37 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CEdak9037639 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:39:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EF17691 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:39:34 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:36:08 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] conformance and datatype libraries In-Reply-To: <200401121403.i0CE3Ext036728@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040112224335.79A9.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <200401121403.i0CE3Ext036728@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040112233352.79AC.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:39:37 -0000 On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:03:14 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > A bug in which direction? Should a schema with a QName value with namespace prefix not > declared in the schema be rejected? I think that this should be rejected even before instances are examined. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From Daniel.Vogelheim@sun.com Tue Jan 13 02:04:22 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CJ4Mm2081450 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:04:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com ([129.157.136.19]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0CJ4IqV003065 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:04:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (dvo-1 [10.16.64.168]) by phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL, v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i0CJ4H200849 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:04:18 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <4002EFB1.1090203@sun.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:04:17 +0100 From: Daniel Vogelheim Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:04:23 -0000 Hello all, I have a question: How can I get a DTD from a RelaxNG schema, if Trang refuses to generate one? A somewhat longer version of the same question is: I work in the OASIS Open Office Technical Committee, which works on an standardized XML file format for office applications, which will likely be supported by at least OpenOffice.org, KOffice and StarOffice. The TC uses RelaxNG as a working language, which means that the formal part of the specification is all done in RelaxNG. But we would like to ship (non-normative) W3C XML Schema as well as DTDs, since many users cannot freely choose the schema language for the work and hence require either W3C XML Schema or DTDs. So... We would of course like to generate .xsd and .dtd files automatically. Trang does a very nice job on the former: The .xsd is nicely readable, and mostly validates correctly. The remaining problems can be fixed easily. However, we couldn't generate DTDs. Trang refuses to generate them. We've tried generating DTDs from the generated .xsd files with XML-Spy, but the resulting DTD was not even valid. Does anyone else have experience with converting RelaxNG to DTDs? What kind of tools work well for this task? Thanks! Sincerely, Daniel Vogelheim From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 13 03:35:21 2004 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CKZKna096544 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:35:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040112203502.XEKH7307.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:35:03 +0000 Message-ID: <400302C6.9080506@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:25:42 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Vogelheim Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <4002EFB1.1090203@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <4002EFB1.1090203@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:35:23 -0000 Daniel Vogelheim wrote: > > I work in the OASIS Open Office Technical Committee, which works on an > standardized XML file format for office applications, which will > likely be supported by at least OpenOffice.org, KOffice and StarOffice. coo. nice job. I suspect the answer is (rather sadly) obvious: you have to go through your RelaxNG schema and work out the bits which trang cannot translate. Then adjust the schema until it _does_ work. If you have a requirement to produce DTDs, you may have to constrain the schema features you use. It's a fact of life in this intermediate DTD/Schema phase of history. Sebastian Rahtz From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 03:46:09 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CKk6gv098392 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:46:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CKgWjE051908 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:42:32 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CKgWx5051907 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:42:32 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122042.i0CKgWx5051907@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <4002EFB1.1090203@sun.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:42:32 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:46:10 -0000 > However, we couldn't generate DTDs. Trang refuses to generate them. How exactly does it express it (the refusal)? My experience has been that trang's general a more permissive DTD if it cannot match exactly. David From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 13 03:57:09 2004 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CKv8ev000163 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:57:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040112205646.XQIE8446.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:56:46 +0000 Message-ID: <400307E9.40603@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:47:37 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <200401122042.i0CKgWx5051907@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401122042.i0CKgWx5051907@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:57:10 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: >>However, we couldn't generate DTDs. Trang refuses to generate them. >> >> > >How exactly does it express it (the refusal)? My experience has been >that trang's general a more permissive DTD if it cannot match exactly. > > I can get fatal errors easily: /home/rahtz/TEI/P5/p5odds.rng:49: error: sorry, wildcards are not supported /home/rahtz/TEI/P5/p5odds.rng:47: error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" error: sorry, wildcards are not supported /home/rahtz/TEI/P5/p5odds.rng:58: error: sorry, cannot handle overrides inside "include" /home/rahtz/TEI/P5/p5odds.rng:63: error: sorry, cannot handle overrides inside "include" /home/rahtz/TEI/P5/rng/tagdocs.rng:26: error: sorry, wildcards are not supported/home/rahtz/TEI/P5/rng/tagdocs.rng:24: error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" /home/rahtz/TEI/P5/rng/tagdocs.rng:22: error: sorry, wildcards are not supported/home/rahtz/TEI/P5/rng/tagdocs.rng:959: error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" which are all examples of things that can be done in RelaxNG, but which trang cannot handle Sebastian Rahtz From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 03:58:18 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CKwF2C000397 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:58:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CKsgjE051986 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:54:42 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CKsgFt051985 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:54:42 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122054.i0CKsgFt051985@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <200401122042.i0CKgWx5051907@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:54:42 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:58:18 -0000 > > However, we couldn't generate DTDs. Trang refuses to generate them. > > that trang's general a more permissive DTD if it cannot match exactly. that trang generates ... (sorry) From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 04:04:17 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CL4Ej5001712 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:04:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CL0fjE052080 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:00:41 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CL0f1Q052079 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:00:41 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122100.i0CL0f1Q052079@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <400307E9.40603@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:00:41 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:04:18 -0000 > which are all examples of things that can be done in RelaxNG, but which > trang cannot handle Sebastian, you are right. I thought trang would emit a more general pattern; I was wrong. David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 04:21:59 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CLLuPN004773 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:21:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CLIMjE052306 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:18:22 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CLIMCc052305 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:18:22 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <400302C6.9080506@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:18:22 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:22:00 -0000 > I suspect the answer is (rather sadly) obvious: you have to go through > your RelaxNG schema and > work out the bits which trang cannot translate. Then adjust the schema > until it _does_ work. > If you have a requirement to produce DTDs, you may have to constrain the > schema features you use. > It's a fact of life in this intermediate DTD/Schema phase of history. What about writing a transformation that will replace difficult constructs with more general ones? a&b with (a|b)*, for example? David From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 13 04:46:28 2004 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CLkRl6009008 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:46:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040112214622.CKLW1005.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:46:22 +0000 Message-ID: <40031382.9030808@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:37:06 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:46:30 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > > What about writing a transformation that will replace difficult > constructs with more general ones? > >> a&b with (a|b)*, for example? > > Once one has identified the troublesome part of the schema, sure. My problem is reading the schema back through 18 levels of indirection with a wet towel tied around my head, trying to understand what trang means by "cannot handle this type of choice" in this context. Sebastian Rahtz From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Jan 13 04:54:02 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CLs08a010470 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:54:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84BBBB724 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:53:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <40031382.9030808@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> <40031382.9030808@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1073944439.22381.130.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:53:59 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:54:02 -0000 On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 22:37, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Once one has identified the troublesome part of the schema, sure. When you have identified these troublesome parts, what about asking James Clark if he can fix them? He is doing his best so that trang generate schemas that are more general than the RNG ones and he may just not be aware that these specific cases bite (or have assigned other priorities thinking they are not likely to happen). My 0.02 Euros. Eric -- Read me on XMLhack. http://xmlhack.com/author.php?id=8 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 04:57:50 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CLvlnr011180 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:57:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CLsDjE053389 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:54:13 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CLsD2T053388 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:54:13 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122154.i0CLsD2T053388@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <1073944439.22381.130.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:54:13 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:57:51 -0000 > > Once one has identified the troublesome part of the schema, sure. > > When you have identified these troublesome parts, what about asking > James Clark if he can fix them? > > He is doing his best so that trang generate schemas that are more > general than the RNG ones and he may just not be aware that these > specific cases bite (or have assigned other priorities thinking they are > not likely to happen). com/thaiopensource/relaxng/output/dtd/Analysis.java has many places with er.error("sorry"); the places can be used as documentation of unsupported features in DTD output mode. On the other hand, 'pregeneralizing' RNG should be possible. David Tolpin From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 13 05:05:40 2004 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CM5d20012709 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:05:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040112220519.FCYS7307.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:05:19 +0000 Message-ID: <400317E0.9090406@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:55:44 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> <40031382.9030808@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1073944439.22381.130.camel@delleric> In-Reply-To: <1073944439.22381.130.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:05:40 -0000 Eric van der Vlist wrote: >>Once one has identified the troublesome part of the schema, sure. >> >> > >When you have identified these troublesome parts, what about asking >James Clark if he can fix them? > > Yes, of course. I just have to isolate the problems. One them is include "foo.rnc" { a = b } which produces cannot handle overrides inside "include" and I am not sure what James *should* do here. I wish someone would write me a RelaxNG equivalent of "soelim", ie something which expanded all includes and activated the overrides. Sebastian From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Jan 13 05:10:25 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMANRd013502 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:10:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47483B724; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:09:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD From: Eric van der Vlist To: Sebastian Rahtz In-Reply-To: <400317E0.9090406@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> <40031382.9030808@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1073944439.22381.130.camel@delleric> <400317E0.9090406@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1073945416.22383.138.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:10:16 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:10:26 -0000 On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 22:55, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Eric van der Vlist wrote: > > >>Once one has identified the troublesome part of the schema, sure. > >> > >> > > > >When you have identified these troublesome parts, what about asking > >James Clark if he can fix them? > > > > > Yes, of course. I just have to isolate the problems. > > One them is > > include "foo.rnc" { > a = b > } > > which produces > > cannot handle overrides inside "include" > > and I am not sure what James *should* do here. No, that's a tricky one! It doesn't deal with the expressive power of the language but with its composition features. > I wish someone would write me > a RelaxNG equivalent of "soelim", ie something which expanded all includes > and activated the overrides. If you were writing that by hand, what would you be using? Entity parameters? Or splitting "foo.dtd" so that you can include everything except the definition of a? This one isn't obvious... Eric > Sebastian -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 05:11:05 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMB1YN013631 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:11:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CM7SjE053495 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:07:28 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CM7SqX053494 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:07:28 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122207.i0CM7SqX053494@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <400317E0.9090406@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:07:28 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:11:05 -0000 > which produces > > cannot handle overrides inside "include" > > and I am not sure what James *should* do here. I wish someone would write me > a RelaxNG equivalent of "soelim", ie something which expanded all includes > and activated the overrides. this is called rng2srng, by Kohsuke KAWAGUCHI. It is a program in Java, which uses Jing to simpligy RELAX NG and then dumps it as a single grammar. If it is an option, then it is the way to go. However, it makes a grammar not human-readable. In fact, includes are handled; overrides are not -- which means that included should be not expanded, but multiplexeed with overrides applied. David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Jan 13 05:12:22 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMCMDE013835 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:12:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA08298 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:12:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:12:04 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD Message-ID: <20040112220215.GD21068@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <400307E9.40603@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200401122100.i0CL0f1Q052079@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401122100.i0CL0f1Q052079@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:12:23 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > You are right. I thought trang would emit a more general pattern; I was wrong. To give an indication of the problems, I ran trang on the published draft at oasis-open: it gave 134 errors of 8 different kinds. Here are the error messages related to DTD generation (trang version 2003-01-08): approximating datatype "{0}" by "{1}" approximating value by "{0}" approximating datatype in content by "#PCDATA" approximating choice of datatypes by "CDATA" approximating empty attribute by "CDATA" approximating mixed choice by repeated mixed choice approximating "list" by "CDATA" approximating attribute occurrence include loop illegal recursive reference illegal content for "attribute" content sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" sorry, "externalRef" is not supported sorry, cannot handle this kind of "group" sorry, include depend sorry, cannot handle this kind of "interleave" sorry, cannot handle this kind of "mixed" multiple definitions of "{0}" without a "combine" attribute inconsistent values for the "combine" attribute sorry, combining definitions with combine="choice" is not supported sorry, nested grammars are not supported sorry, cannot handle this kind of "oneOrMore" sorry, cannot handle this kind of "optional" sorry, "parent" is not supported sorry, wildcards are not supported sorry, cannot handle this kind of "zeroOrMore" reference to undefined pattern unrecognized datatype sorry, cannot handle overrides inside "include" sorry, not handled: duplicate declaration of element "{1}" from namespace "{0}" other element declaration is here sorry, ambiguous attribute choice not handled (attribute "{1}" from namespace "{0}") "{0}" does not correspond to an ATTLIST declarations and so cannot be combined with "interleave" And for the fun of it, here are the ones relating to XSD generation: cannot convert datatype library "{0}"; using datatype "string" reference to undefined pattern "{0}" illegal recursion through pattern "{0}" sorry, externalRef is not yet supported sorry, nested grammars are not yet supported parent reference with no applicable grammar "start" in "include" does not override anything definition of "{0}" in "include" does not override anything multiple definitions of "{0}" without "combine" attribute inconsistent "combine" attributes for definition of "{0}" infinite loop including URI "{0}" sorry, not supported: URI "{0}" included more than once "attribute" using "anyName" must be repeated "attribute" using "nsName" must be repeated restriction violation: {0} contains "{1}" "{0}" can contain typed data only inside a list "{0}" cannot combine typed data with text or elements grouping data is only allowed inside list typed data cannot be combined with "interleave" "mixed" cannot be applied to typed data choice between attributes and children cannot be represented; approximating cannot represent restriction on value of attributes matching wildcard; approximating cannot represent required wildcard attribute; approximating cannot represent an optional group of attributes; approximating -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan "One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script. One of the geologists came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too. Try hanging up and phoning in again.'" --Beverly Erlebacher From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Jan 13 05:18:01 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMHxLF014615 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:18:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74886B724 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:17:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200401122207.i0CM7SqX053494@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200401122207.i0CM7SqX053494@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1073945878.22371.145.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:17:58 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:18:01 -0000 On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 23:07, David Tolpin wrote: > > which produces > > > > cannot handle overrides inside "include" > > > > and I am not sure what James *should* do here. I wish someone would write me > > a RelaxNG equivalent of "soelim", ie something which expanded all includes > > and activated the overrides. > > this is called rng2srng, by Kohsuke KAWAGUCHI. It is a program in Java, which uses > Jing to simpligy RELAX NG and then dumps it as a single grammar. > > If it is an option, then it is the way to go. However, it makes a grammar not human-readable. > In fact, includes are handled; overrides are not -- which means that included should > be not expanded, but multiplexeed with overrides applied. Hmmm, good idea... I have also written a XSLT transformation implementing the simplification process: http://downloads.xmlschemata.org/relax-ng/utilities/simplification.xsl Each step is implemented as a XSLT mode and you can stop after 7.8 which is the expansion of includes. Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 05:19:32 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMJTZg014821 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:19:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CMFtjE053586 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:15:55 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CMFtsN053585 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:15:55 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122215.i0CMFtsN053585@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <20040112220215.GD21068@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:15:55 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:19:32 -0000 > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > You are right. I thought trang would emit a more general pattern; I was wrong. > > To give an indication of the problems, I ran trang on the published draft > at oasis-open: it gave 134 errors of 8 different kinds. Here are the > error messages related to DTD generation (trang version 2003-01-08): 1) where is the draft published? I've tried to find it (mostly as one additional grammar for the testsuite) and couldn't. 2) Some of these errors are Relax NG,not DTD errors. Either Jing reports them too or it is strange. David From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 13 05:20:27 2004 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMKQgt014945 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:20:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040112221951.FBRD8446.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:19:51 +0000 Message-ID: <40031B57.5020007@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:10:31 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <200401122118.i0CLIMCc052305@adat.davidashen.net> <40031382.9030808@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1073944439.22381.130.camel@delleric> <400317E0.9090406@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1073945416.22383.138.camel@delleric> In-Reply-To: <1073945416.22383.138.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:20:28 -0000 Eric van der Vlist wrote: >If you were writing that by hand, what would you be using? Entity >parameters? Or splitting "foo.dtd" so that you can include everything >except the definition of a? > > This is from the Text Encoding Initiative. Up until now, things were done with very complex DTDs and extensive use of parameter entities. User extensions/changes would be activated by providing a pair of extension files, referenced in the DTD subset. Now the "correct" thing to do is write a wrapper schema which imports the main TEI and then overrides selected bits. I do have a "RelaxNG flattener", which does the soelim job, written as an XSLT transform, but it does not work properly and it's incredibly unreadable. I am sure it could be done much more easily in a conventional programming language; the other part of the job is removing patterns which are unreachable or unreferenced. Anyone else interested in such a tool? Sebastian From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Jan 13 05:59:15 2004 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CMxE1P020352 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:59:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AgAws-0007x0-00; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:54:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:54:18 -0500 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD Message-ID: <20040112225418.GA27794@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20040112220215.GD21068@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200401122215.i0CMFtsN053585@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401122215.i0CMFtsN053585@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:59:16 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > > > You are right. I thought trang would emit a more general pattern; I was wrong. > > > > To give an indication of the problems, I ran trang on the published draft > > at oasis-open: it gave 134 errors of 8 different kinds. Here are the > > error messages related to DTD generation (trang version 2003-01-08): > > 1) where is the draft published? I've tried to find it (mostly as one additional > grammar for the testsuite) and couldn't. http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/3610/office-schema-1.0-draft-01.rng > 2) Some of these errors are Relax NG,not DTD errors. Either Jing reports them too > or it is strange. Jing reports no errors. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants." --Isaac Newton From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 06:25:42 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0CNPdIT024303 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:25:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0CNM5jE054783 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:22:05 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0CNM55g054782 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:22:05 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401122322.i0CNM55g054782@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <20040112225418.GA27794@mercury.ccil.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:22:05 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:25:43 -0000 > > or it is strange. > > Jing reports no errors. Your version of trang is outdated, the older version had more bugs. trang-20030619 reports 9 kinds of errors. Below is sed 's/^[^ ]*//'|sort|uniq of his output. The message about ruby-style is probably a bug, since everything looks good (or am I missing something?) Other too combine attributes and non-attributes as interleave, cannot be done in DTD, but I don't think it is needed in the grammar either. Ambigious attribute choice are attributes with the same name in alternatives. Can be factored out easily through preprocessing of the grammar (with XSLT). And so on. Most things seem very easy to filter out and generalize with a stylesheet. error: "ruby-style" does not correspond to an ATTLIST declarations and so cannot be combined with "interleave" error: "text-common-ref-content" does not correspond to an ATTLIST declarations and so cannot be combined with "interleave" error: "text-notes-configuration-content" does not correspond to an ATTLIST declarations and so cannot be combined with "interleave" error: other element declaration is here error: sorry, ambiguous attribute choice not handled (attribute "num-format" from namespace "http://openoffice.org/2000/style") error: sorry, ambiguous attribute choice not handled (attribute "value" from namespace "http://openoffice.org/2000/text") error: sorry, ambiguous attribute choice not handled (attribute "value-type" from namespace "http://openoffice.org/2000/text") error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "group" error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "interleave" error: sorry, combining definitions with combine="choice" is not supported error: sorry, not handled: duplicate declaration of element "a" from namespace "http://openoffice.org/2000/drawing" error: sorry, wildcards are not supported From Michael.Weber@dlr.de Tue Jan 13 18:43:22 2004 Received: from n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com [129.247.16.33]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DBhKif016461 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:43:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de (ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de [129.247.217.243]) by n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (8.11.7-20030917/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i0DBh5871946 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:43:10 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:43:04 +0100 Message-ID: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315208386@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: choice of equal attributes Thread-Index: AcPZwqjEcK31vbZzRhCyVEFWCJCE4wAB5Gmw From: To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i0DBhKif016461 Subject: [relaxng-user] WG: choice of equal attributes X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:43:24 -0000 Hi all, I wonder if there is a solution of the following problem. Suppose a RELAX NG schema containing a definition for references: Now, I want to change this definition in a derived schema, such that a reference now refers either to an element within in the XML document or to an element within an other XML document. Thus, I enhance the definition with a further attribute transitivly referring to the other XML document. I would like to have the same attribute name for the reference to the element because the element is of the same kind as the original one. But, jing returns an error message: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "ref" of element ... Is it not possible to define context-sensitive ID-types? How can I solve this problem? Thanks in advance Kind regards Micha PS. Sorry that I did not presented code in compact syntax. I am not so familiar with this approach. -- Dr. Michael Weber German Aerospace Center Rutherfordstr. 2 D-12489 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 67055-750 Fax: +49 (0)30 67055-8750 mailto:Michael.Weber@dlr.de http://www.dlr.de/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 18:59:37 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DBxX76018090 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:59:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0DBtrjE007906 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:55:53 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0DBtr9C007905 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:55:53 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401131155.i0DBtr9C007905@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] WG: choice of equal attributes In-Reply-To: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315208386@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:55:53 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:59:38 -0000 Michael, these are two separate problems, I think. One is whether duplicate attributes are allowed -- they are not, as stated in 7.3. The other is whether you need it; NCName and IDREF are the same type in Relax NG. Your grammar is equivalent to or, since you've mentioned the compact syntax reference=attribute instance {xsd:IDREF}?, attribute ref {xsd:IDREF} David Tolpin From Daniel.Vogelheim@sun.com Tue Jan 13 19:02:40 2004 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DC2e6S018747 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:02:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com ([129.157.136.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0DC2X0H003092 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (dvo-1 [10.16.64.168]) by phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL, v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i0DC2W211799 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:02:32 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <4003DE5B.2030009@sun.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:02:35 +0100 From: Daniel Vogelheim Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <4002EFB1.1090203@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <4002EFB1.1090203@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:02:41 -0000 Hi all, Thanks for the feedback. On the error messages from Trang: John Cowan posted a list of unique message further down this thread. I did the same, running a newer version of the schema through a newer version of Trang. I get ca. 160 errors reported, with the unique error messages being: error: "{0}" does not correspond to an ATTLIST declarations and so cannot be combined with "interleave" error: other element declaration is here error: sorry, ambiguous attribute choice not handled (attribute "{0}" from namespace "{1}") error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "group" error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "interleave" error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "optional" error: sorry, combining definitions with combine="choice" is not supported error: sorry, not handled: duplicate declaration of element "{0}" from namespace "{1}" error: sorry, wildcards are not supported Some of them I could work around, but others I have trouble seing the problem right away. As some have recommended, the best way to proceed is probably to work through those errors and remove them through some scripted normalization, or manually by changing the source. For comparison, these are the message from the XSD conversion: (4 total) warning: choice between attributes and children cannot be represented; approximating warning: cannot represent an optional group of attributes; approximating warning: cannot represent required wildcard attribute; approximating Note that these are all warnings about approximations, no errors. This is exactly what I want. :-) Sincerely, Daniel From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 19:15:37 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DCFXLr020035 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:15:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0DCBrjE008019 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:11:53 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0DCBrQW008018 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:11:53 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401131211.i0DCBrQW008018@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <4003DE5B.2030009@sun.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:11:53 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:15:37 -0000 > Some of them I could work around, but others I have trouble seing the > problem right away. Which ones? > For comparison, these are the message from the XSD conversion: (4 total) > warning: choice between attributes and children cannot be represented; > approximating > warning: cannot represent an optional group of attributes; approximating > warning: cannot represent required wildcard attribute; approximating > > Note that these are all warnings about approximations, no errors. This > is exactly what I want. :-) XSD output is more elaborated than DTD's. Three ways -- push James Clark to enhance DTD output, hack the code of Trang and preprocess Relax NG so that Trang could handle. I stillt think that automatic preprocessing with XSL is doable and not that difficult. And while it may not a very general solution, it will definitely not introduce new problems into Trang. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 21:16:49 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DEGjt9034627 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:16:47 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0DED7jE008571 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:13:07 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0DED6xa008570 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:13:06 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401131413.i0DED6xa008570@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: AW: [relaxng-user] WG: choice of equal attributes In-Reply-To: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B55@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:13:06 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:16:51 -0000 > > The way I understand the concept of IDREF, this type contains only > those values, which are bound by the type ID in the same document. > Thus, for my problem of a reference to an external element I have > to use the more general data type NCName. Referential semantics is beyond the scope of Relax NG; IDREF are only checked syntacically, which is, in my opinion is good thing. Claims are being made that another problem can use the information in Relax NG grammar to validate referentail semantics, but, again, in my opinion, first, there is no such program yet, then, it will be a bad thing, because a grammar should include things it cannot use (unless they are in separate namespace and just combined with the grammar, not included). David From Daniel.Vogelheim@sun.com Tue Jan 13 22:20:52 2004 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DFKpCL044197 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:20:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com ([129.157.136.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0DFKi0H004358 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (dvo-1 [10.16.64.168]) by phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL, v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i0DFKh222662 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:20:43 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <40040CCB.2000401@sun.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:20:43 +0100 From: Daniel Vogelheim Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <200401122207.i0CM7SqX053494@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401122207.i0CM7SqX053494@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:20:52 -0000 Hi David and others, you wrote: >>I wish someone would write me >>a RelaxNG equivalent of "soelim", ie something which expanded all includes >>and activated the overrides. >> >> > >this is called rng2srng, by Kohsuke KAWAGUCHI. It is a program in Java, which uses >Jing to simpligy RELAX NG and then dumps it as a single grammar. > >If it is an option, then it is the way to go. However, it makes a grammar not human-readable. > > That was a good suggestion. I ran my grammer through rng2srng, and it reduced the problems in the subsequent DTD conversion from 160 to 40. Furthermore, ca. half of those are due to one particular construct, which can be easily resolved manually... :-) Using the same on XSD doesn't really make sense, since the resulting XSD becomes rather unreadable... I am a bit surprised at some of the problems. In the original grammer, I liberally used defines with combine, i.e. something like: [...] [...] ... [...] ... This caused an error when generating DTDs, even a straight-forward mapping to a content model (bla|blerk|...)* is available. This kind of error disappeared after using rng2srng. Another problem, which persists after rng2srng, stems from inter-dependent attribute values. In a few cases, attributes depend on each other. E.g. to encode values of different types, we use a value-type="...". For different value types, there are different attributes. E.g. value-type="string" and string-value="...", or value-type="data" and date-value="...". This can be encoded in Relax-NG as: string date Trang can't handle this when translating to DTD ("sorry, ambigous attribute choice not handled"). A good approximating representation (that the used previously in the manually created DTD) would be: I suspect part of the problem (for at least the first issue) is that Trang tries to make a good translation, preserving the author's intentions, as opposed to a merely correct one. The first issue can be solved with rng2srng, but that pretty much destroys the original structure. Hence I'm not surprised Trang doesn't do that. OTOH, for DTD output specifically, transformations such as combining definitions would be a good idea, since that particular aspect of the original schema cannot be preserved through the translation to DTDs anyway. I'll see if James Clark has an opinion on this, and would want to include this into Trang. Sincerely, Daniel From Daniel.Vogelheim@sun.com Tue Jan 13 22:22:06 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DFM5eD044419 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:22:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com ([129.157.136.19]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0DFM3qV019646 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:22:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (dvo-1 [10.16.64.168]) by phys-hamburg-2.germany.sun.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL, v2.1p1) with ESMTP id i0DFM2222722 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:22:02 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <40040D1A.90903@sun.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:22:02 +0100 From: Daniel Vogelheim Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD References: <200401131211.i0DCBrQW008018@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401131211.i0DCBrQW008018@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:22:06 -0000 Hi David, Thanks for your help. David Tolpin wrote: >>Some of them I could work around, but others I have trouble seing the >>problem right away. >> >> >Which ones? > > E.g.: 'sorry, cannot handle this kind of "group"'. This refers to an element definition with an optional attribute, an optional element child and text, like this: ... ... I guess the problem is the order with the optional first element child and the text? >XSD output is more elaborated than DTD's. Three ways -- push James Clark >to enhance DTD output, hack the code of Trang and preprocess Relax NG so >that Trang could handle. I stillt think that automatic preprocessing with >XSL is doable and not that difficult. And while it may not a very general >solution, it will definitely not introduce new problems into Trang. > > The more I think about it, the more that looks like the proper answer. Some of my problems are generic; those would ideally be handled by Trang, and I'll ask James about it. Others seem quite specific to my schema; I'll try to handle those seperately, ideally with a transformation. Sincerely, Daniel From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 22:40:29 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DFePFX047155 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:40:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0DFaljE009278 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:36:47 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0DFal7N009277 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:36:47 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401131536.i0DFal7N009277@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <40040D1A.90903@sun.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:36:47 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:40:29 -0000 [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Hi David, > > Thanks for your help. > > David Tolpin wrote: > > >>Some of them I could work around, but others I have trouble seing the > >>problem right away. > >> > >> > >Which ones? > > > > > E.g.: 'sorry, cannot handle this kind of "group"'. > This refers to an element definition with an optional attribute, an > optional element child and text, like this: > > ... > ... > > > > I guess the problem is the order with the optional first element child > and the text? > In XML DTD, text cannot be ordered with elements. Either the content is 'mixed', or it is not. Change occurences of: to Of course, in a transformation, not manually. David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 13 23:03:41 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0DG3YID050911 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:03:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0DFxujE009637 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:59:56 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0DFxuKc009636 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:59:56 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401131559.i0DFxuKc009636@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Converting Relax-NG to Schema and DTD In-Reply-To: <200401131536.i0DFal7N009277@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:59:56 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:03:42 -0000 > > In XML DTD, text cannot be ordered with elements. Either the content is 'mixed', > or it is not. Change occurences of: > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > Of course, in a transformation, not manually. I was wrong, that is, not right enough. Since it is the only form of mixed content that is allowed in XML DTD. (#PCDATA|foo)* Should be automatically pre-processable. David From dp8t-asm@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Jan 14 11:19:21 2004 Received: from mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (juran.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.39]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0E4JK9Q057878 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:19:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp (mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.211]) by mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604B8C6C2 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:19:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from NEWARCADIA.asahi-net.or.jp (goldenport.asamioffice.co.jp [61.194.212.62]) by mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with ESMTP id i0E4JHL27324 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:19:18 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:19:23 +0900 Message-ID: From: ASAMI Tomoharu To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.11.22 (Wonderwall) SEMI/1.14.5 (Awara-Onsen) FLIM/1.14.5 (Demachiyanagi) APEL/10.6 Emacs/21.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Meadow/2.00 Beta2-dev (WOMINAHESHI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] [ANN] Relaxer 1.0 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:19:22 -0000 Dear RELAX NG Users, I am happy to announce that Relaxer version 1.0 is available for download. http://www.relaxer.org/ http://www.relaxer.org/download/ http://www.relaxer.org/download/relaxer-1.0.zip Relaxer is a schema compiler for RELAX NG. Relaxer generates Java sources, DTDs, XSLT scripts, HTMLs with FORM, and more from RELAX NG schemas. Relaxer supports almost full specification of RELAX NG. For example, Relaxer can handle the James Clark's RELAX NG schema for XHTML Modularization. To read the tutorial, you can understand what Relaxer can do. http://www.relaxer.org/doc/tutorial/tutorial.html Regards, -- ASAMI, Tomoharu From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 14 17:03:40 2004 Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0EA3e1U022375 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:03:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AghsB-0006PI-HZ for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:03:39 +0000 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 24496-04 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:03:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp0.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.246]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AghsB-0006PC-43; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:03:39 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] helo=computing-services.oxford.ac.uk) by smtp0.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AghsB-0002Bn-00; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:03:39 +0000 Message-ID: <400511AC.2090809@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:53:48 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ASAMI Tomoharu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] [ANN] Relaxer 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:03:41 -0000 ASAMI Tomoharu wrote: > > I am happy to announce that Relaxer version 1.0 is available for > download. The documentation seems to be broken. ie http://www.relaxer.org/doc/man_en.html does not exist, and http://www.relaxer.org/doc/index.html is producing garbage (all the examples do not show). Maybe a quick sanity check on that web site...... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From george@sync.ro Thu Jan 15 02:27:36 2004 Received: from decebal.sync.ro (decebal.sync.ro [217.156.64.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0EJRTkc096910 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 02:27:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from spelling ([10.0.0.19]) by decebal.sync.ro (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id i0EJA13q025522 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:10:09 +0200 Message-ID: <0bae01c3dad5$892776e0$1300000a@spelling> From: "George Cristian Bina" To: Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:35:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [relaxng-user] [ANN] XML Editor 3.0 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:27:41 -0000 I am glad to announce the release of the XML Editor, version 3.0. The 3rd version of XML editor focuses on making all the functionality much easier to use. This was done by improving existing features and by adding new ones. From the new features the automatically synchronized tree based outliner, the bookmark support and the global transformation scenarios are perhaps the most important ones. Also support for Namespace Routing Language (NRL) schemas should be noted. XML Editor can be freely evaluated for 30 days and it costs $74 ($48 for academic use). The features relevant for Relax NG are listed below, for a complete list of features and more details please visit the www.oxygenxml.com site. * Validation support against NRL (Namespace Routing Language) schemas. * Support for NRL (Namespace Routing Language) schemas. * Associate a schema with a document. * Schema conversion support using TRANG. * Pretty print for Relax NG Compact schemas. * Basic code completion for RNC editing. * Japanese version. Best Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina mailto:george@oxygenxml.com XML Editor - http://www.oxygenxml.com/ From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Jan 15 18:17:25 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0FBHOHJ014347 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:17:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFCE256A4C for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:17:03 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040115111106.0265ac50@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:17:04 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] nxml-mode problem X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:17:25 -0000 jing validates the instance OK. nxml-mode. When I select the schema I get Internal error at 72 in rng-validation-mode. Wrong type argument: arrayp, 0 Suggestions please. regards DaveP Instance: oneX Grammar: one two From dp8t-asm@asahi-net.or.jp Fri Jan 16 04:05:41 2004 Received: from mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (juran.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.39]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0FL5dw3097997 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 04:05:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp (mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.211]) by mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93DA8489 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:05:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from ARCADIA.asahi-net.or.jp (e146190.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [211.13.146.190]) by mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with ESMTP id i0FL5bL03411 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:05:37 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:05:37 +0900 Message-ID: From: ASAMI Tomoharu To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] [ANN] Relaxer 1.0 In-Reply-To: <400511AC.2090809@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <400511AC.2090809@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.11.22 (Wonderwall) SEMI/1.14.5 (Awara-Onsen) FLIM/1.14.5 (Demachiyanagi) APEL/10.6 Emacs/21.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Meadow/2.00 Beta2-dev (WOMINAHESHI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:05:41 -0000 > > I am happy to announce that Relaxer version 1.0 is available for > > download. > The documentation seems to be broken. ie > http://www.relaxer.org/doc/man_en.html > does not exist, and http://www.relaxer.org/doc/index.html > is producing garbage (all the examples do not show). Maybe a quick > sanity check on that web site...... Thank you for your report. The relaxer site is broken as you informed. I fixed the problems. Please see http://www.relaxer.org again. Thanks, -- ASAMI, Tomoharu From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Fri Jan 16 04:32:51 2004 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0FLWo65002562 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 04:32:51 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040115213213.YTKF5098.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:32:13 +0000 Message-ID: <4007048F.1070708@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:22:23 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ASAMI Tomoharu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] [ANN] Relaxer 1.0 References: <400511AC.2090809@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:32:51 -0000 ASAMI Tomoharu wrote: >The relaxer site is broken as you informed. >I fixed the problems. Please see http://www.relaxer.org again. > > Thanks, thats much better. Now it all makes sense! Sebastian Rahtz From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 01:46:07 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GIk6lY062565 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:46:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7D225708B for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:46:02 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:46:04 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:46:08 -0000 Is it possible to write a pattern for an email address please? fred@example.com fred.baker@example.org.uk tia. DaveP From jcowan@reutershealth.com Sat Jan 17 02:19:48 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GJJmAx068467 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:19:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02822; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:19:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:19:45 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? Message-ID: <20040116191945.GP6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:19:49 -0000 Dave Pawson scripsit: > Is it possible to write a pattern for an email address please? > > fred@example.com > fred.baker@example.org.uk It's a regex that takes up several pages. See the book _Mastering Regular Expressions_. If you don't care about full RFC (2)822 generality, then you can do a fair amount with ".*@.*\..*". -- "There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan may come to the Shire, it will not seem jcowan@reutershealth.com the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.reutershealth.com I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?" --Frodo From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 02:32:15 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GJWEg8070252 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:32:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA8224D9A5; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:32:10 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116193019.0269afc0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:32:12 +0000 To: jcowan@reutershealth.com From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <20040116191945.GP6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20040116191945.GP6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:32:15 -0000 At 19:19 16/01/2004, jcowan@reutershealth.com wrote: >Dave Pawson scripsit: > > Is it possible to write a pattern for an email address please? > > > > fred@example.com > > fred.baker@example.org.uk > >It's a regex that takes up several pages. See the book _Mastering Regular >Expressions_. Mmm. :-) > If you don't care about full RFC (2)822 generality, then >you can do a fair amount with ".*@.*\..*". I'm getting a little more than that so far, but it sure ain't several pages...yet. Thanks. DaveP From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 17 02:36:14 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GJaBI8070911 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:36:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0GJZV0c006745 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:35:31 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0GJZVve006744 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:35:31 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401161935.i0GJZVve006744@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:35:31 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:36:15 -0000 > Is it possible to write a pattern for an email address please? > > fred@example.com > fred.baker@example.org.uk > > tia. DaveP Dave, if you need a regular expression for addr-spec, then it is start=element addr-spec { xsd:token { pattern="""([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|"[^"\\]*")@([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|\[[^\[\]\\]*\])""" } } Works for both normal addresses and forms like "David Tolpin"@[Obscure Place] The expression above is slightly more allowing than required, but should be appropriate for the majority of cases. David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 17 02:52:40 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GJqaRK073251 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:52:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0GJpw0c006985 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:51:58 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0GJpweA006984 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:51:58 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401161951.i0GJpweA006984@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <200401161935.i0GJZVve006744@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:51:58 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:52:41 -0000 > Dave, > > if you need a regular expression for addr-spec, then it is > Forgot to include quoted-pairs. This one should be better: start=element addr-spec { xsd:token { pattern="""([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|"([^"\\]|\\.)*")@([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\])""" } } David Tolpin From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 03:10:52 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GKApZS076113 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:10:51 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E152570F7; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:10:47 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116200952.0269f268@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:10:49 +0000 To: David Tolpin , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <200401161935.i0GJZVve006744@adat.davidashen.net> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200401161935.i0GJZVve006744@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:10:52 -0000 At 19:35 16/01/2004, David Tolpin wrote: Thanks David. Much appreciated. Boy that's a bit scary :-) Don't tell me, you just worked it out? regards DaveP. >if you need a regular expression for addr-spec, then it is > >start=element addr-spec { > xsd:token { > >pattern="""([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|"[^"\\]*")@([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|\[[^\[\]\\]*\])""" > } >} > >Works for both normal addresses and forms like > >"David Tolpin"@[Obscure Place] > >The expression above is slightly more allowing than required, but should >be appropriate >for the majority of cases. > >David >_______________________________________________ >relaxng-user mailing list >relaxng-user@relaxng.org >http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 17 03:18:19 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GKIGdS077295 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:18:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0GKHb0c007288 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:17:37 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0GKHbak007287 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:17:37 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401162017.i0GKHbak007287@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116200952.0269f268@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:17:36 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:18:19 -0000 > Don't tell me, you just worked it out? In fact, I did. It's not awful -- just looks so. If there were defines for parts, it would be a lot easier to write. atext=[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+ # taken from the RFC quoted-string="([^"\\]|\\.)*" # that is, not-quote inside quotes, or an escape domain-content=\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\] # that is, anything in square brackets, brackets are escaped if inside the brackets local-part = atext(\.atext)*|quoted-string domain-part = atext(\.atext)*|domain-content addr-spec = local-part @ domain-part David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Sat Jan 17 03:24:22 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GKOMMd078192 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:24:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03894; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:24:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:24:18 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? Message-ID: <20040116202418.GV6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20040116191945.GP6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040116201137.026a66c0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116201137.026a66c0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:24:22 -0000 Dave Pawson scripsit: > I'll try and hide David Tolpins away so I don't have to > look at it too often:-) The following one supposedly works (merge all lines into one) provided the address does not contain any comments (which are in parentheses) and there are no non-ASCII characters in it either: (?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:(?:(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t] )+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?: \r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:( ?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\0 31]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\ ](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+ (?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?: (?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*|(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z |(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n) ?[ \t])*)*\<(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:@(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\ r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n) ?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t] )*))*(?:,@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])* )(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t] )+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*) *:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)?(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+ |\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r \n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?: \r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t ]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031 ]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\]( ?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(? :(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(? :\r\n)?[ \t])*))*\>(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)|(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(? :(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)? [ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)*:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:(?:(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]| \\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<> @,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|" (?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t] )*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\ ".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(? :[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[ \]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*|(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000- \031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|( ?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)*\<(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:@(?:[^()<>@,; :\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([ ^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\" .\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\ ]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*(?:,@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\ [\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\ r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\] |\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*)*:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)?(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \0 00-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\ .|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@, ;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(? :[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])* (?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\". \[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[ ^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\] ]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*\>(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:,\s*( ?:(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\ ".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:( ?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[ \["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t ])*))*@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t ])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(? :\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+| \Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*|(?: [^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\ ]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)*\<(?:(?:\r\n) ?[ \t])*(?:@(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\[" ()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n) ?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<> @,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*(?:,@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@, ;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t] )*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\ ".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*)*:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)? (?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\". \[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?: \r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\[ "()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]) *))*@(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]) +|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\ .(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z |(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|\[([^\[\]\r\\]|\\.)*\](?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*\>(?:( ?:\r\n)?[ \t])*))*)?;\s*) -- "You know, you haven't stopped talking John Cowan since I came here. You must have been http://www.reutershealth.com vaccinated with a phonograph needle." jcowan@reutershealth.com --Rufus T. Firefly http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 17 03:39:47 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GKdiil080603 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:39:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0GKd50c007482 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:39:05 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0GKd5TF007481 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:39:05 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401162039.i0GKd5TF007481@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <20040116202418.GV6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:39:05 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:39:50 -0000 John, let's not start it. > (?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:(?:(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t] > )+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t]))*"(?:(?: > \r\n)?[ \t])*)(?:\.(?:(?:\r\n)?[ \t])*(?:[^()<>@,;:\\".\[\] \000-\031]+(?:(?:( > ?:\r\n)?[ \t])+|\Z|(?=[\["()<>@,;:\\".\[\]]))|"(?:[^\"\r\\]|\\.|(?:(?:\r\n)?[ t is not XML Schema Datatypes Regular Expressions, which is the only regex syntax usable with Relax NG today (and tomorrow, I'm afraid). Besides, a fair amount of this regular expression deals with white space. Meanwhile, XML Schema Datatypes provides xsd:token datatype, which normalizes whitespace. If the whitespace expressions were removed or reduced to ' ?', it would become so much smaller. I think that, for practical purposes, the expression for addr-spec, with spaces inserted between parts, if required, is sufficient. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 03:43:57 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GKht2i081199 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:43:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D0B257411; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:51 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116204307.026b0348@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:53 +0000 To: David Tolpin , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? In-Reply-To: <200401162039.i0GKd5TF007481@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040116202418.GV6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200401162039.i0GKd5TF007481@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:57 -0000 At 20:39 16/01/2004, David Tolpin wrote: >John, > >let's not start it. Which is why it didn't parse in jing I guess. OK. Thanks. DaveP. From jcowan@reutershealth.com Sat Jan 17 05:12:58 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0GMCwe4094804 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:12:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05480; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:12:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:12:52 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rfc2822 compliant email pattern? Message-ID: <20040116221252.GF6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040116181415.026869b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20040116191945.GP6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040116201137.026a66c0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20040116202418.GV6240@skunk.reutershealth.com> <40085336.9050903@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40085336.9050903@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Sebastian Rahtz scripsit: > but whats the point? it would match "cjowan@reutershealth.com", which > would fail..... Oh, you think so, do you? -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan The known is finite, the unknown infinite; intellectually we stand on an islet in the midst of an illimitable ocean of inexplicability. Our business in every generation is to reclaim a little more land, to add something to the extent and the solidity of our possessions. --Thomas Henry Huxley From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 20:34:35 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0HDYZhK093416 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:34:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7D924E81D for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117125202.02648150@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:34:31 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] datetime variation X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:34:37 -0000 Looking for a dateTime pattern variation, 2001-01-11T12:01:01Z I.e. the normal xsd dateTime, but with a mandated Z, as apposed to the +- alternatives. Not working I have, 2000-01-01T00:00:00Z 2099-12-31T23:59:59Z [0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2}T[0-9]2:[0-9]2:[0-9]2Z Ideally I'd like to split it up, date, T time Z I can't find a way to do this. 1. Is this possible please? 2. If so, how? 3. If not... am I into defining my own library type? TIA, DaveP From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 17 20:44:53 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0HDinRF094240 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:44:51 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0HDi60c016231 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:44:06 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0HDi5q5016230 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:44:05 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401171344.i0HDi5q5016230@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] datetime variation In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117125202.02648150@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:44:05 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:44:53 -0000 > 2001-01-11T12:01:01Z > I.e. the normal xsd dateTime, but with a mandated Z, > as apposed to the +- alternatives. > > Not working I have, > > > > 2000-01-01T00:00:00Z > 2099-12-31T23:59:59Z > name="pattern">[0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2}T[0-9]2:[0-9]2:[0-9]2Z > here curly brackets are omitted around last two 2's, but what you actually want is .*Z. It is already a date, so the only thing you need to say is that it ends with Z. > Ideally I'd like to split it up, > date, > T > time > Z > I can't find a way to do this. I haven't understood this part. David From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 21:03:46 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0HE3jh3095843 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:03:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B36252919; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:03:42 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117135008.026671b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:03:43 +0000 To: David Tolpin , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] datetime variation In-Reply-To: <200401171344.i0HDi5q5016230@adat.davidashen.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117125202.02648150@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200401171344.i0HDi5q5016230@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:03:46 -0000 At 13:44 17/01/2004, David Tolpin wrote: > > 2001-01-11T12:01:01Z > > I.e. the normal xsd dateTime, but with a mandated Z, > > as apposed to the +- alternatives. > > > > Not working I have, > > > > > > > > 2000-01-01T00:00:00Z > > 2099-12-31T23:59:59Z > > > name="pattern">[0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2}T[0-9]2:[0-9]2:[0-9]2Z > > > >here curly brackets are omitted around last two 2's, but what you actually >want is .*Z. It is already a date, so the >only thing you need to say is that it ends with Z. No, there's the time in there as well David. ... BUT :-) Yours works! fails on ...+2.00 which is a valid dateTime Does jing validate both parts then, the min and max of date and time? I guess so. Also manages to ignore the Z at the end! The spec states that Z is a 'should' item, so its really optional, hence the final one is 2000-01-01T00:00:00 2099-12-31T23:59:59 .*(Z)? which works great. > > Ideally I'd like to split it up, > > date, > > T > > time > > Z > > I can't find a way to do this. > >I haven't understood this part. If I could have .. .. then I could 'join' the date, T, time, Z patterns on a token type. But that's not allowed unfortunately. That would really make it easy to 'build' patterns up. Thanks again David. regards DaveP From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Jan 17 22:57:22 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0HFvMCb006763 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:57:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0194F2511F5 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:57:19 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117155404.02678728@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:57:20 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] datetime variation In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117135008.026671b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040117125202.02648150@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200401171344.i0HDi5q5016230@adat.davidashen.net> <6.0.1.1.2.20040117135008.026671b0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:57:24 -0000 At 14:03 17/01/2004, Dave Pawson wrote: >At 13:44 17/01/2004, David Tolpin wrote: >>here curly brackets are omitted around last two 2's, but what you actually >>want is .*Z. It is already a date, so the >>only thing you need to say is that it ends with Z. David gave me 2000-01-01T00:00:00 2099-12-31T23:59:59 .*T[^+\-]* which blocks the offset option as needed, and allows an optional Z which is just what I needed :-) Many thanks David. regards DaveP From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Jan 18 23:49:03 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0IGn0Pf044518 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:49:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0IGm70c045525 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:48:08 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0IGm5i7045524 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:48:05 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:48:05 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] ANN: incelim X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:49:04 -0000 Hi, this is an announcement of a small RNG-related program, incelim http://ftp.davidashen.net/incelim/ incelim is a Relax NG splicer. It takes a Relax NG grammar in XML syntax, expands all includes and externalRefs, and optionally replaces references to text, empty, or notAllowed with the patterns. The result is a 'compiled' schema convenient for distribution, as well as for consumption by tools which do not yet support include and externalRef. I would like to thank Sebastian Rahtz for the idea, inspiration, example of use of exsl:node-set(), and testing of the program. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Jan 19 06:53:28 2004 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0INrRU3086177 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:53:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040118235307.PZGW14639.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:53:07 +0000 Message-ID: <400B1A03.8080002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:42:59 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] understanding why trang is upset X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:53:29 -0000 The exchange about preprocessing RNG to make it acceptable to trang to create DTDs prompted me to revisit my own situation. Some careful staring reduced the problem to a series of error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" messages. But now I am stuck. I really do not understand what trang is objecting to in things like this macro.paraContent = (text | class.phrase | class.inter | class.Incl)* If any of you clever folk have a moment to spare, can you run trang on http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/rahtz.rng and see if you can explain the error messages? Sebastian Rahtz From jjc@jclark.com Mon Jan 19 09:45:37 2004 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0J2jWYu004036 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:45:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.198] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0J2jI522639; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:45:19 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] understanding why trang is upset From: James Clark To: Sebastian Rahtz In-Reply-To: <400B1A03.8080002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> <400B1A03.8080002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1074480050.14863.894.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:40:50 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 02:45:40 -0000 On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 06:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > The exchange about preprocessing RNG to make it acceptable to trang to > create DTDs > prompted me to revisit my own situation. Some careful staring reduced > the problem to > a series of > > error: sorry, cannot handle this kind of "choice" > > messages. But now I am stuck. I really do not understand what trang is > objecting to > in things like this > > macro.paraContent = > (text | class.phrase | class.inter | class.Incl)* The problem is that class.phrase etc contain . James From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Jan 19 19:45:02 2004 Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0JCj1Xx065411 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:45:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AiYm4-00035k-Ht for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:45:00 +0000 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 11736-06 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:45:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.235]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AiYm4-00035d-4a; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:45:00 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] helo=computing-services.oxford.ac.uk) by smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AiYm4-00046r-00; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:45:00 +0000 Message-ID: <400BCF0C.7040403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:35:24 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Clark Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] understanding why trang is upset References: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> <400B1A03.8080002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1074480050.14863.894.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> In-Reply-To: <1074480050.14863.894.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:45:02 -0000 James Clark wrote: > > The problem is that class.phrase etc contain . > Many thanks. You and David Tolpin have alerted me to the root cause of my misery. I have gone back to my initial generation of the schemas and isolated the problem. Over 4 error messages left to go! It is probably a good lesson: making the RNG -> DTD conversion work is proving a test of my understanding of the language.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Jan 19 23:52:59 2004 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0JGqwql099488 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:52:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040119165229.UDDS5350.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:52:29 +0000 Message-ID: <400C08F7.9000202@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:42:31 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] another trang question about DTD generation X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:53:00 -0000 If I start with this bit of RelaxNG: Trang generates which parsers reject, saying eg Error: Misplaced #PCDATA in content declaration Is this an error in trang, or something I have to work around by hand? Sebastian Rahtz From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 20 01:35:23 2004 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0JIZMgT014211 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:35:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040119183447.EFVD5350.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:34:47 +0000 Message-ID: <400C20ED.2000403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:24:45 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401181648.i0IGm5i7045524@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] yet another trang rng -> DTD question : namespaces X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:35:25 -0000 I don't want to see ungrateful :-}, but this, with ns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0", turns into this: which "traditional" XML parsers seem unable to cope with, as they don't understand namespaces in DTDs. Are they mistaken? Sebastian From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Jan 21 00:09:55 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0KH9tC6091084 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:09:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61DA25ED5E for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:09:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120170817.02680f68@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:09:28 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] Schematron X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:09:57 -0000 Has anyone a tiny example of successfully using a Schematron insert within a relax ng schema... and the processing, with cmd line params they used please? I can't get it to work. regards DaveP From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 21 00:20:15 2004 Received: from tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0KHKE6l092715 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:20:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.166] helo=localhost) by tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AizXx-000687-PM for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:13 +0000 Received: from rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.165]) by localhost (scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 23519-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.247]) by rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AizXx-00067l-Bc for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:13 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] helo=computing-services.oxford.ac.uk) by smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AizXx-0004NM-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:13 +0000 Message-ID: <400D610B.2020904@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:10:35 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Schematron References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120170817.02680f68@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120170817.02680f68@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:15 -0000 Dave Pawson wrote: > Has anyone a tiny example > of successfully using a Schematron insert within > a relax ng schema... see following > and the processing, with cmd line params they used please? I just use "relames" (or is it "relmes") email address must contain an @ sign -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Jan 21 00:27:57 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0KHRvvV093964 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:27:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB55E2621BA for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:27:52 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120172556.02694cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:27:53 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Schematron In-Reply-To: <400D610B.2020904@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120170817.02680f68@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <400D610B.2020904@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:27:58 -0000 At 17:10 20/01/2004, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >I just use "relames" (or is it "relmes") Which bombed with a not dissimilar example. http://thaiopensource.com/relaxng/jing-other.html implies direct support? DaveP From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 21 02:45:21 2004 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0KJjKq3017735 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:45:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040120194455.QLIS14639.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:44:56 +0000 Message-ID: <400D82C4.4090007@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:34:28 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Schematron References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120170817.02680f68@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <400D610B.2020904@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <6.0.1.1.2.20040120172556.02694cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120172556.02694cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:45:21 -0000 Dave Pawson wrote: > > http://thaiopensource.com/relaxng/jing-other.html implies > direct support? isn't this talking about when you say jing foo.sch bar.xml and foo.sch is a Schematron script? I just tried that, and it worked. I created foo.sch by extracting the assertions from inside the RNG schema. Its not integrated processing, but maybe this what James had in mind. Sebastian Rahtz From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 21 17:05:47 2004 Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0LA5kFl021262 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:05:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AjFF3-0008Nn-Ha for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:05:45 +0000 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 31949-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:05:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp0.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.246]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AjFF3-0008Nd-47 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:05:45 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] helo=computing-services.oxford.ac.uk) by smtp0.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AjFF3-0005ml-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:05:45 +0000 Message-ID: <400E4CB3.5060603@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:56:03 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] removing things from patterns X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:05:49 -0000 If I have a pattern "inlinecontent", I can add to it by saying So can I do the opposite? Say that I want to _remove_ "italic" from "inlinecontent"? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Michael.Weber@dlr.de Wed Jan 21 17:24:20 2004 Received: from n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com [129.247.16.33]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0LAOH2H023169 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:24:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de (ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de [129.247.217.243]) by n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (8.11.7-20030917/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i0LAO78122890 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:24:07 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] removing things from patterns X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:24:06 +0100 Message-ID: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD57953152083BC@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] removing things from patterns Thread-Index: AcPgBl3moZKanAKSQLmMHNPVevfa0QAAf1gw From: To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i0LAOH2H023169 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:24:20 -0000 Hi Sebastian, you wrote: > > If I have a pattern "inlinecontent", I can add to it by saying > > > > > > So can I do the opposite? Say that I want to _remove_ "italic" > from "inlinecontent"? As far as I understand the specification, you can only redefine the pattern. Kind regards Michael -- Dr. Michael Weber German Aerospace Center Rutherfordstr. 2 D-12489 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 67055-750 Fax: +49 (0)30 67055-8750 mailto:Michael.Weber@dlr.de http://www.dlr.de/ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Jan 21 18:38:08 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0LBc5H4030988 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:38:06 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0LBau0c012781 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:36:56 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0LBauWs012780 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:36:56 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401211136.i0LBauWs012780@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <400E4CB3.5060603@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:36:56 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL110 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] 'and' and 'not' (removing things from patterns) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:38:08 -0000 > If I have a pattern "inlinecontent", I can add to it by saying > > > > > > So can I do the opposite? Say that I want to _remove_ "italic" > from "inlinecontent"? Is it because constructing regular automata for 'and' and 'not' is more complex these operations are not included into Relax NG? David Tolpin From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Jan 21 21:26:33 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0LEQVUI051738 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:26:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F8D77FE for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:26:28 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:23:01 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] 'and' and 'not' (removing things from patterns) In-Reply-To: <200401211136.i0LBauWs012780@adat.davidashen.net> References: <400E4CB3.5060603@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200401211136.i0LBauWs012780@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040121232002.26C5.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:26:33 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:36:56 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > Is it because constructing regular automata for 'and' and 'not' is more > complex these operations are not included into Relax NG? That's one reason. I also think that such extensions make data binding (e.g., JAXB and Relaxer) very difficult. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Jan 21 22:06:14 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0LF6ClU057810 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:06:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104058.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.58]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1032F6B3C for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:06:11 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:02:43 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for Relax NG Compact? In-Reply-To: <20040107225833.A57A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> References: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net> <20040107225833.A57A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Message-Id: <20040121232438.26C8.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:06:15 -0000 On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:08:56 +0900 "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" wrote: > If we can live with the vendor tree (*/vnd.*), it is not so difficult to register > a media type. However, it we would like to use the IETF tree, we need an ISO standard. > (There are some technical problems such as versioning of the compact syntax.) > > In my understanding, James will create PDAM (proposed draft amendement) for the RELAX NG > compact syntax soon. It will probably become an AM (AMedment) to ISO/IEC 19757-2 next year. I am writing the FCD for DSDL Part 4, which requires the media type for the RELAX NG compact syntax. I now feel that we should live with the vendor tree. I do not think that users will care the differences between the IETF tree and the vendor tree. Although a media type in the vendor tree does not even need an RFC, it takes too much time to register one in the IETF tree. W3C has been trying without much success. Here is a strawman. Top-level media type: application Subtype name: vnd.oasis-open.relax-ng.rnc Note: vnd.relax-ng.rnc might be better, since (1) it is shorter, (2) the RNC syntax is expected to become an ISO standard, (3) we do not need an endorsement from OASIS. Required param: none Optional param: charset Encoding consideration: This media type MAY be encoded as appropriate for the charset and the capabilities of the underlying MIME transport. For 7-bit transports, data in either UTF-8 or UTF-16 MUST be encoded in quoted-printable or base64. For 8-bit clean transport (e.g., 8BITMIME[RFC1652] ESMTP or NNTP[RFC0977]), UTF-8 is not encoded, but the UTF-16 family MUST be encoded in base64. For binary clean transports (e.g., HTTP[RFC2616]), no content-transfer-encoding is necessary. Security considerations: Dereferencing embedded URIs may cause security problems. Interoperability considerations: none Published specifications: OASIS RELAX NG compact syntax Applications: relax ng validators Additional information: magic number: none file extension: rnc mac file type code: OID: none Intended Usage: Common Other Information/General Comment: When the charset parameter is absent, the procedure shown in A2.1 of the RELAX NG compact syntax spec is used. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From tbray@textuality.com Thu Jan 22 07:07:28 2004 Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (mailnull@outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0M07SWA041975 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:07:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [204.244.193.134] (helo=[192.168.6.179]) by outbound.mailhop.org with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.20) id 1AjSNb-0005lH-5r; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:07:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20040121232438.26C8.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> References: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net> <20040107225833.A57A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <20040121232438.26C8.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for Relax NG Compact? Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:07:26 -0800 To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org X-MHO-User: LaurenAndTim Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:07:30 -0000 On Jan 21, 2004, at 7:02 AM, MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: > Here is a strawman. > > Top-level media type: application > Subtype name: vnd.oasis-open.relax-ng.rnc > Note: vnd.relax-ng.rnc might be better, since (1) it is shorter, (2) > the RNC syntax > is expected to become an ISO standard, (3) we do not need an > endorsement from OASIS. Oasis is a red herring, I think vnd.relax-ng.rnc is better. Cheers, Tim Bray http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ From smith@xml-doc.org Thu Jan 22 07:29:49 2004 Received: from hiram.io.com (root@hiram.io.com [199.170.88.27]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0M0TnXH044717 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:29:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from zennihon_yopparai_rengo (IDENT:smith@hagbard.io.com [199.170.88.13]) by hiram.io.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id i0M0Tkt15816 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:29:47 -0600 Received: by zennihon_yopparai_rengo (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, d Jan 2004 09:29:40 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:29:39 +0900 From: Michael Smith To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for Relax NG Compact? Message-ID: <20040122002935.GC992@zennihon_yopparai_rengo> References: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net> <20040107225833.A57A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <20040121232438.26C8.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KsGdsel6WgEHnImy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:29:50 -0000 --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Tim Bray writes: > On Jan 21, 2004, at 7:02 AM, MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: > > >Here is a strawman. > > > >Top-level media type: application > >Subtype name: vnd.oasis-open.relax-ng.rnc > > Note: vnd.relax-ng.rnc might be better, since (1) it is shorter, (2) > >the RNC syntax > > is expected to become an ISO standard, (3) we do not need an > >endorsement from OASIS. > > Oasis is a red herring, I think vnd.relax-ng.rnc is better. FWIW, I agree. I don't think there's any need to include the oasis-open part. --Mike --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFADxlvsGCNMsnBsxkRAlyjAJ9nZcXzunAD/NvJPWzCSi7jVxykGACfT0IT 1w5jrcV06F5xCQycCBMMxxE= =6XkV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy-- From dp8t-asm@asahi-net.or.jp Thu Jan 22 13:06:38 2004 Received: from mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (juran.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.39]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0M66bfe081593 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:06:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp (mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.211]) by mail-old.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5675AF6EB for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:06:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from NEWARCADIA.asahi-net.or.jp (goldenport.asamioffice.co.jp [61.194.212.62]) by mailr1.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with ESMTP id i0M66YL05365 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:06:35 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:06:41 +0900 Message-ID: From: ASAMI Tomoharu To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.11.22 (Wonderwall) SEMI/1.14.5 (Awara-Onsen) FLIM/1.14.5 (Demachiyanagi) APEL/10.6 Emacs/21.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Meadow/2.00 Beta2-dev (WOMINAHESHI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] [ANN] Relaxer Eclipse Plugin 0.1.0 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:06:40 -0000 For RELAX NG/Java/Eclipse users, I am happy to announce that Relaxer Eclipse Plugin version 0.1.0 is available for download. http://www.relaxer.org/ http://www.relaxer.org/eclipse http://www.relaxer.org/eclipse/site/org.relaxer.eclipse_0.1.0.jar Relaxer Eclipse Plugin is a eclipse plugin for the Relaxer schema compiler. Because it is in the early stage, documentations has not been prepared yet. However I guess that average eclipse users can understand the way to use easily. Thanks, -- ASAMI, Tomoharu From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Thu Jan 22 18:24:12 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0MBOB5u011234 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:24:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0MBNbhS000504 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:23:50 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:23:37 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2263@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:23:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: [relaxng-user] Inheritance rant. X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:24:14 -0000 XML supports inheritance in namespaces. XML supports inheritance in the use of xml:lang It doesn't support inheritance in ... say, elements, or attributes. Use case. rss has the idea of a feed root, with n entries. feed entry entry entry The atom spec calls for an author element. if defined as a child of feed, it remains in force until overriden by providing an author child of entry, i.e. inherited. if not defined in feed, it must be provided by each entry child. Seems a bit of a waste. I couldn't figure out how to validate it in relax ng, hence had to step out to Schematron. Is it reasonable to identify (somehow) that element X is 'inheritable'? Or that attribute Y is inheritable, until overriden. Regards DaveP. **** snip here ***** - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From tor@helland.org Thu Jan 22 19:39:04 2004 Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0MCd3oT018994 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:39:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from tor (86.80-202-10.nextgentel.com [80.202.10.86]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with SMTP id A2A23787D6 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:38:48 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <00b201c3e0e4$d9de5da0$0b00000a@internal.gitek.no> From: "Tor Helland" To: References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2263@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Inheritance rant. Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:39:47 +0100 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:39:04 -0000 > The atom spec calls for an author element. > if defined as a child of feed, it remains in force until > overriden by providing an author child of entry, i.e. inherited. > if not defined in feed, > it must be provided by each entry child. > Seems a bit of a waste. > I couldn't figure out how to validate it in relax ng, > hence had to step out to Schematron. The schema appended at the end, and the 2 xml files, does this (I think, not an expert). Both xml files validate with Jing. And omitting the author element raises an error. > Is it reasonable to identify (somehow) > that element X is 'inheritable'? > Or that attribute Y is inheritable, > until overriden. The Relax NG schemas for xhtml 2.0 use a for common attributes. It's easy to have one for common elements. They don't mention any inheritable meaning right there, but I guess that has to do with how the application uses the data, and not validity. (big words from a beginner ;-) -tor (examples following) -------theEnd From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Thu Jan 22 21:09:34 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0ME9XRZ028840 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 21:09:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0ME8ihS010130; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:08:54 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:08:44 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2266@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: tor@helland.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Inheritance rant. Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:08:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:09:34 -0000 The schema appended at the end, and the 2 xml files, does this (I think, not an expert). Both xml files validate with Jing. And omitting the author element raises an error. It does indeed. Thanks. It's pretty messy though isn't it :-) I was just wondering if relax ng could address this. Just imagine what it would be like with 4 such combinations.! Thanks. regards DaveP. - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From jamesmiller@isgenesis.com Fri Jan 23 03:14:39 2004 Received: from smtp.isgenesis.com (net-6621942-66.customer.corenap.com [66.219.42.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0MKEd3f084434 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 03:14:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from badger.isgenesis.com.internal.isgenesis.com (badger.isgenesis.com [::ffff:10.0.0.127]) by smtp.isgenesis.com with esmtp; Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:14:38 -0600 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: James Miller Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:14:38 -0600 Message-ID: <6kn08f211t.fsf@badger.isgenesis.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] attribute value quoting bug in Trang? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:14:40 -0000 Hi, I typed in the example of annotations in the compact syntax on pages 218 and 219 of Eric van der Vlist's _RELAX NG_ book and ran trang-20030619 on it to see the XML syntax equivalent (which appears on page 218, BTW). The .rng output was not well-formed XML because of a badly quoted attribute value. The relevant part of the .rnc input is right near its start: namespace ann = "http://dyomedea.com/examples/ns/annotations" [ ann:attribute = 'Annotation as foreign attribute for "grammar"' ann:element [ 'Initial annotation as foreign element for "grammar"' ] ] grammar { # ... Note that the ann:attribute attribute's value is delimited by single quotes and contains double quotes. Here's the beginning of the corresponding .rng output: Initial annotation as foreign element for "grammar" Whoops -- the value of the ann:attribute attribute is now delimited by double quotes, but still also contains raw double quotes (as opposed to, say, ``"'' character entity references). This behavior might be a result of some code in com/thaiopensource/relaxng/output/common/XmlWriter.java, public void attribute(String name, String value) { if (!inStartTag) throw new IllegalStateException("attribute outside of start-tag"); write(' '); write(name); write('='); write('"'); data(value); write('"'); } which isn't doing anything to ``escape double quotes'' in the value its given. -James Miller From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Jan 23 20:19:17 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NDJDZw099921 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:19:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6737BC88 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:18:39 +0100 (CET) From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1074863950.22372.1840.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:19:10 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] xs:ID in element values X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:19:17 -0000 Hi, I am working on a project where I translate a WXS schema using xs:ID for simple type elements into RNG. Jing gives me this error when I translate that naively into something such as element id {xsd:ID} : """ a "data" or "value" pattern with non-null ID-type must occur as the child of an "attribute" pattern """ That makes sense if you consider that even when using WXS datatypes, the identity checks are done using the DTD compatibility feature, but that's something that: a) isn't very intuitive b) the user should be able to switch off James, could you implement an option in jing to switch the DTD compatibility feature off? Thanks Eric -- Freelance consulting and training. http://dyomedea.com/english/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Fri Jan 23 20:36:30 2004 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NDaUWO001881 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:36:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ak1Qk-0000zs-00; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:33:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:33:02 -0500 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] xs:ID in element values Message-ID: <20040123133302.GC15952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1074863950.22372.1840.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1074863950.22372.1840.camel@delleric> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:36:31 -0000 Eric van der Vlist scripsit: > That makes sense if you consider that even when using WXS datatypes, the > identity checks are done using the DTD compatibility feature, but that's > something that: > > a) isn't very intuitive > b) the user should be able to switch off > > James, could you implement an option in jing to switch the DTD > compatibility feature off? That would be the -i switch. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com jcowan@reutershealth.com All "isms" should be "wasms". --Abbie From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Jan 23 21:08:46 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NE8jS2005662 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:08:45 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006A0BC88 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:08:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] xs:ID in element values From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <20040123133302.GC15952@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1074863950.22372.1840.camel@delleric> <20040123133302.GC15952@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1074866923.22375.1842.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:08:44 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:08:46 -0000 On Fri, 2004-01-23 at 14:33, John Cowan wrote: > Eric van der Vlist scripsit: > > > That makes sense if you consider that even when using WXS datatypes, the > > identity checks are done using the DTD compatibility feature, but that's > > something that: > > > > a) isn't very intuitive > > b) the user should be able to switch off > > > > James, could you implement an option in jing to switch the DTD > > compatibility feature off? > > That would be the -i switch. Indeed! Thanks and sorry for the noise. Eric -- Curious about Relax NG? Read my book online. http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aldib@fuurou.org Fri Jan 23 23:03:27 2004 Received: from server262.com (ns1.server262.com [64.14.68.15]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id i0NG3Rga021445 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:03:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 6955 invoked by uid 501); 23 Jan 2004 16:05:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20040123160523.15054.qmail@server262.com> From: "aldib" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:05:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail 2.3 X-Originating-IP: 144.9.158.100 X-Originating-Email: aldib@fuurou.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang and XSD annotations X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: aldib List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:03:27 -0000 Hi, After many years using XSD i decided to give RelaxNG a try. I really like the compact syntax but i cannot convert comments into XSD annotation using Trang. I noticed that if I mark a comment with ## it's transformed into an RNG annotation but it doesn't work for xml schemas. Does anybody know how to solve this problem? Alternatevely, is there any tool like http://titanium.dstc.edu.au/xml/xs3p/ to generate docs out of a RelaxNG schema ? Thanks Alessandro From sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de Sat Jan 24 00:00:48 2004 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.177]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NH0lpu030804 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:00:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [212.227.126.205] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ak4fn-0002WQ-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:00:47 +0100 Received: from [62.155.220.148] (helo=baron) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ak4fn-0007WI-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:00:47 +0100 Message-ID: <006301c3e1d2$638ef1c0$94dc9b3e@baron> From: "Andreas Sewe" To: "[Relax NG]" References: <200401061513.i06FDgrq038638@adat.davidashen.net><20040107225833.A57A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp><20040121232438.26C8.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for Relax NG Compact? Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:59:52 +0100 Organization: RBG, TU Darmstadt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:275eb74a6eb9feb006a62452721ee94c X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:00:48 -0000 >> Top-level media type: application >> Subtype name: vnd.oasis-open.relax-ng.rnc >> Note: vnd.relax-ng.rnc might be better, since (1) it is shorter, (2) the >> RNC syntax is expected to become an ISO standard, (3) we do not >> need an endorsement from OASIS. > Oasis is a red herring, I think vnd.relax-ng.rnc is better. For the sake of brevity I'm also in favour of "vnd.relax-ng.rnc". For the sake of consistency (with "http://relaxng.org") I'm even more in favour of "vnd.relaxng.rnc". And it's shorter, too. ;-) Regards, Andreas Sewe From tbray@textuality.com Sat Jan 24 02:14:58 2004 Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (mailnull@outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NJEvk0050227 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 02:14:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [204.244.193.134] (helo=[192.168.6.179]) by outbound.mailhop.org with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.20) id 1Ak6lb-0000NH-IM for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:14:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-Id: <6D2FB2E2-4DD8-11D8-B206-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-36--58669360; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:14:54 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org X-MHO-User: LaurenAndTim Subject: [relaxng-user] Referring to RNG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:14:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail-36--58669360 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I'm speccing out a protocol with a bunch of XML messages, and would like the canonical representation to be RNC. It's simple enough that I can probably get Trang to distill out DTDs and XSDs without too much painful information loss. So: what is the good canonical official reference for RNC? Top of the Google list is http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/compact-20021121.html, but that's from November 2002. Is there something better? -Tim --Apple-Mail-36--58669360 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGHDCCAtUw ggI+oAMCAQICAwuKuTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMTIyMjMzOTA2WhcNMDUwMTIxMjMzOTA2WjBGMR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMSMwIQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhR0YnJheUB0ZXh0dWFsaXR5 LmNvbTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMYiIlrf7yTblabXBlwkonodVyp+ W7Oo8w71ErSW7mKramEBAkfkUnPmbRqcS2wqFaK34GbQMk/1vcOxo2AmfmFVec13SWKi0YzXC8xf 9SbjfQU1tXiC9LJB1HeOO46UVRqTNeayruz2pQBztvYF76G5sGmwKjoR/DhimwUM579MaJln38SK UQ6Ya768DwyaDNY7yDWYh1gUxizx71QkzyRCPQdmq6g1ebrVYyoBE33BXQRNGZm2zrlI5JBQ4oax E0Cz3BjR8iZFzK/AhFGDllZYuojf7iZuaNhWr3aWAvHNyLHVMaxXNFb/CUri5c7StFVEgXUVvlgP eSHIPg9gqaECAwEAAaMxMC8wHwYDVR0RBBgwFoEUdGJyYXlAdGV4dHVhbGl0eS5jb20wDAYDVR0T AQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQBQAlJ/qQJmtQN966ahSWiovhjWj5Qwk6BnPP+Fjfbo 9guSIWWBw2DEXh8nPT4WJchZSVz4SwDtZ0SZ2PWWToRo/Dmpv+ehzNNhR/y2CdU/zNo+kSShBhc6 HNtp6A0+Yh6Vw0Y+qHa0EKppOJM2D5WTExycYjHU8Xs+dLktAmKqlzCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0w DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQ BgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0Nl cnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBG cmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAe Fw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxU aGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJl ZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAxKY8VXNV+065ypla HmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688 Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJg t/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6 Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIB BjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgGA1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEF BQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcPf6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFi w9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU13 41YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8xggLnMIIC4wIBATBpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQK ExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwg RnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIDC4q5MAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggFTMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkq hkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTA0MDEyMzE5MTQ1NVowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFIz1 iVla4eFUTaqgMyy8KTU8+E9RMHgGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFrMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNV BAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25h bCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLirkwegYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxa6BpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3 dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIDC4q5MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAKfL abn3ysbJG1LycGhDgG9zEjmapQxf89BM+1LmcEL0Kpljv6t+JBrBzlnf+SU3HUS4AWoeKlhMYLxJ CzjAezttSOnJcR+ygfHR2OjI02pbiSAGV+tS+1QaQ/n8UIgL5lxbrc3fcMifysRySQ2rSUfCyEai sZjxClG/GtJ7kzVohlpq4sj3J1y+lLgTqIM8VrztFJtReFbt1U6HsqDttaaCq0l8Hyvqmfd13GsP Boa013Y2RKQvgBfRSQkqjGOtwQslwD98BjgulhyyoUQEca4djz85SNdGxWfrWy9omdU4+bUHMPot pzCAbPsB1h6aNKcNBGe8zyyOvHbLKVdXic4AAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-36--58669360-- From jcowan@reutershealth.com Sat Jan 24 02:45:38 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NJjbL2054980 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 02:45:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA08860; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:45:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:45:32 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Referring to RNG Message-ID: <20040123194531.GN14690@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <6D2FB2E2-4DD8-11D8-B206-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6D2FB2E2-4DD8-11D8-B206-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:45:38 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > So: what is the good canonical official reference for RNC? Top of the > Google list is > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/compact-20021121.html, > but that's from November 2002. Is there something better? -Tim Look, buddy: James got it right, we on the committee made it perfect, and there's no reason to change it. Use compact-20021121 if ya know what's good for ya. -- At the end of the Metatarsal Age, the dinosaurs John Cowan abruptly vanished. The theory that a single jcowan@reutershealth.com catastrophic event may have been responsible www.reutershealth.com has been strengthened by the recent discovery of www.ccil.org/~cowan a worldwide layer of whipped cream marking the Creosote-Tutelary boundary. --Science Made Stupid From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Jan 24 03:33:53 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0NKXoKb062352 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:33:51 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0NKX563080354 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:33:05 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0NKX4MA080353 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:33:04 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401232033.i0NKX4MA080353@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:33:04 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] ann: rnv bugfix X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:33:53 -0000 I'm sorry for the noise, but I have just found that I overengineered RNV, http://davidashen.net/rnv.html in the last release -- the garbage collector was collecting too much; I've plugged the hole and put the distribution on the site. David From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sat Jan 24 08:42:52 2004 Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0O1gpIf004401 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:42:52 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: mXcVt/S4XYFqYdBgs4r70w 1074908489 Received: from [134.53.145.205] (unknown [134.53.145.205]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFBB4B563F for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:41:28 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:43:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] xml and entities? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:42:53 -0000 OK, this is not specific to RNG, but I'm curious what people think about this issue. According to this: http://dhillman.com/theplace/xml/xml_syntax.htm ... one should not use apostrophe or double quote characters in XML documents. "Depending on the parser, the apostrophe and double quote will generally be presented without problems, but technically, should be defined by character entities." Is that right??? Clearly this would be the case within attributes, but even in elements? Am having a polite argument about this with someone who wants the code his tool outputs to be strictly compliant... Bruce From veillard@redhat.com Sat Jan 24 15:38:20 2004 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0O8cKIO043223 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:38:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0O8cJr13899; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:38:19 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0O8cJa12777; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:38:19 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0O8bukC028479; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:37:56 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0O8bus0028476; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:37:56 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:37:56 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] xml and entities? Message-ID: <20040124083756.GI6632@redhat.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:38:21 -0000 On Fri, Jan 23, 2004 at 08:43:44PM -0500, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > Is that right??? Clearly this would be the case within attributes, but > even in elements? Even in attribute it's perfectly possible to use quote or double-quote unescaped as long as they are distinct from the separator for that attribute. And for text in element content, I really don't see any justification to escape them to entities. I really can't see a valid reason for this, this actually reflects the opposite of the feedback I got from users, libxml2 used to escape them, and now tries to minimize the escaping as much as possible when serializing XML. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From tor@helland.org Sun Jan 25 15:18:29 2004 Received: from smtp120.tiscali.dk (smtp120.tiscali.dk [62.79.79.111]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0P8IRZ8089797 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:18:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp120.tiscali.dk (8.12.6p3/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i0P8IQmI017136 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:18:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from tor@helland.org) Received: from mail.helland.org (213.234.118.231) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 3FE68A310002D8C6 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:18:26 +0100 Received: from Spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO000004; 25 Jan 04 08:59:43 +0100 Received: from spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v3.32); 25 Jan 04 08:59:28 +0100 Received: from rhuidean (192.168.1.3) by mail.midiar.net (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MG000003; 25 Jan 04 08:59:19 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c3e31b$c9b39ec0$0301a8c0@rhuidean> From: "Tor Helland" To: Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:18:16 +0100 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [relaxng-user] Newbie: Normalisation and PSVI X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 08:18:29 -0000 We may define element values as string or token, and more if using datatype libraries. And when using token for elements, the element values will be normalised. So after parsing a document with relax ng, I would expect to get a modified infoset with element values normalised where the datatype is token. Isn't this a PSVI (Post Schema Validation Infoset)? Now I had the impression (maybe misunderstanding something in Eric van der Vlist's book?) that relax ng parsing does not produce a PSVI. Or is it just that relax ng does not put anything extra into the PSVI? Could someone please point out where I'm wrong? ;-) -tor ------- Tor and Anne-Hilde Helland, Einerbakken 18, N-2827 HUNNDALEN, Norway tor@helland.org, anne-hilde@helland.org http://www.helland.org/ +47 6117 7369 HVORFOR? Min venn, hvorfor skulle du la deg slå ned i støvlene? Støvler er ikke noe blivende sted! Hvorfor ikke heller la deg presse opp i hatten, fyke rundt i stormkastene for så å lande på et fredelig sted, fullt av hestehov og blåklokker? Hvorfor ikke? From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sun Jan 25 15:37:12 2004 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0P8bCxW091338 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:37:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1Akfi0-00056J-00; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 03:33:32 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 03:33:32 -0500 To: Tor Helland Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Newbie: Normalisation and PSVI Message-ID: <20040125083332.GO21887@mercury.ccil.org> References: <000b01c3e31b$c9b39ec0$0301a8c0@rhuidean> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c3e31b$c9b39ec0$0301a8c0@rhuidean> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 08:37:12 -0000 Tor Helland scripsit: > We may define element values as string or token, and more if using datatype > libraries. And when using token for elements, the element values will be > normalised. There is no point, though it is valid, in using either "string" or "token" as patterns by themselves, since neither one constrains the input. These datatypes are useful only in connection with a specific value. > So after parsing a document with relax ng, I would expect to get a modified > infoset with element values normalised where the datatype is token. RELAX NG validation returns only a valid/invalid indication. > Now I had the impression (maybe misunderstanding something in Eric van der > Vlist's book?) that relax ng parsing does not produce a PSVI. Correct. -- Winter: MIT, John Cowan Keio, INRIA, jcowan@reutershealth.com Issue lots of Drafts. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan So much more to understand! http://www.reutershealth.com Might simplicity return? (A "tanka", or extended haiku) From tor@helland.org Sun Jan 25 19:52:48 2004 Received: from smtp210.tiscali.dk (smtp210.tiscali.dk [62.79.79.113]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0PCqlnU013199 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:52:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp210.tiscali.dk (8.12.6p3/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i0PCqkRP029491 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:52:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from tor@helland.org) Received: from mail.helland.org (213.234.118.231) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 3FE68A310002DC27 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:52:46 +0100 Received: from Spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO000008; 25 Jan 04 13:34:08 +0100 Received: from spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v3.32); 25 Jan 04 13:33:50 +0100 Received: from rhuidean (192.168.1.3) by mail.midiar.net (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MG000007; 25 Jan 04 13:33:43 +0100 Message-ID: <002701c3e342$1c6f2aa0$0301a8c0@rhuidean> From: "Tor Helland" To: References: <000b01c3e31b$c9b39ec0$0301a8c0@rhuidean> <20040125083332.GO21887@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Newbie: Normalisation and PSVI Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:52:30 +0100 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:52:49 -0000 > > We may define element values as string or token, and more if using datatype > > libraries. And when using token for elements, the element values will be > > normalised. > > There is no point, though it is valid, in using either "string" or "token" > as patterns by themselves, since neither one constrains the input. > These datatypes are useful only in connection with a specific value. So a token datatype does not mean anything except in enumerations, with definitions, since the instance text and the text are both normalised before comparison. I had misunderstood that, putting relax ng in the role of managing the whitespace normalisation process. Making a utility that actually did that, using the relax ng schema to normalise whitespace and streamline other datatype text representations, could be really useful. Does any such utility exist? (But to exploit that utility a schema would probably be built with much datatype info that would be pointless during the normal relax ng validation.) -tor From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Mon Jan 26 15:03:59 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0Q83ukD033270 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:03:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0Q83AhS007455; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:03:20 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:03:10 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2288@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: aldib@fuurou.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Trang and XSD annotations Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:03:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:04:00 -0000 After many years using XSD i decided to give RelaxNG a try. I really like the compact syntax but i cannot convert comments into XSD annotation using Trang. I noticed that if I mark a comment with ## it's transformed into an RNG annotation but it doesn't work for xml schemas. Does anybody know how to solve this problem? See chapter 13 of Eric's book. Very clear explanation. http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ HTH DaveP - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From robin.berjon@expway.fr Mon Jan 26 23:44:17 2004 Received: from mwinf0902.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0QGiHEE093086 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:44:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from expway.fr (APastourelles-107-2-3-149.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.149]) by mwinf0902.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C8C1F180011E for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:44:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <40154375.9080304@expway.fr> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:42:29 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Best RNG checking tools X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:44:17 -0000 Hi, I was wondering if this list had any advice on a good RelaxNG checking tool. So far I've fed the RNG to a validator and seen if that worked, but I'd like to know if there's anything that will look in depth at a schema and tell me if it's any good, possibly with warnings about things that might bite me down the road, that aren't considered good practice, etc. I guess I'm looking for rng-lint or something along those lines. I don't care about the platform so long as I can run it on OS X or Windows without too much hassle. Thanks! -- Robin Berjon From kal@techquila.com Tue Jan 27 04:19:53 2004 Received: from he304war.uk.vianw.net (he304war.uk.vianw.net [195.102.244.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0QLJq2U041106 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 04:19:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [62.3.64.253] (helo=piggy.ontopia.u-net.com) by he304war.uk.vianw.net with asmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AlE98-0004tV-OX for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:19:51 +0000 From: Kal Ahmed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: techquila Message-Id: <1075152075.1739.7.camel@piggy.ontopia.u-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:21:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] ANN: RELAX-NG to DocBook and SVG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:19:54 -0000 Hi all, I have been using RELAX-NG (very successfully, thank you ;-) on a project in the course of which I got the itch to produce documentation and diagrams from the RNG sources. The result is a stylesheet for creating rudimentary Docbook documentation from the documentation annotations of a RELAX-NG schema and a set of stylesheets for creating a variety of SVG diagrams from a schema. Details and download links are at http://www.techquila.com/rng-tools.html BTW, the licensing is Apache-style - details at http://www.techquila.com/download/LICENSE.txt Enjoy! Cheers, Kal -- Kal Ahmed, Techquila Standards-based Information Management e: kal@techquila.com w: www.techquila.com p: +44 7968 529531 From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Jan 27 06:48:43 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0QNme6V063929 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:48:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0QNlb63042658 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:47:37 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0QNlbvo042657 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:47:37 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Best RNG checking tools In-Reply-To: <40154375.9080304@expway.fr> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:47:37 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:48:44 -0000 Robin Berjon: > Hi, > > I was wondering if this list had any advice on a good RelaxNG checking > tool. So far I've fed the RNG to a validator and seen if that worked, > but I'd like to know if there's anything that will look in depth at a > schema and tell me if it's any good, possibly with warnings about things > that might bite me down the road, that aren't considered good practice, > etc. I guess I'm looking for rng-lint or something along those lines. Robin, Relax NG is simple enough to provide few capabilities which can be dangerous. A conformant processor that checks for all restrictions, such as Jing, should be enough to write good grammars. A grammar can be checked for ambiguity, but an ambiguous grammar is normal for Relax NG. http://www.kohsuke.org/relaxng/meter/ Another thing is checking how orthogonal a grammar is, that is, that its patterns have few common subexpressions. Trang (with output to xsd) can be used to find places in a grammar that should be considered as candidates for simplification. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 27 06:59:55 2004 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0QNxsqA065419 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:59:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040126235919.IXFJ12068.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:59:19 +0000 Message-ID: <4015A724.9050005@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:47:48 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031221 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Best RNG checking tools References: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:59:55 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: >Relax NG is simple enough to provide few capabilities which can be dangerous. > > quite. Isn't the reason we all like RelaxNG is that we _don't_ have to skirt around features that are hard, or unimplemented, or unportable? protecting the schema writer against doing something dumb, like using an attribute to encode something which may later need inline markup, seems rather hard :-} Sebastian From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Jan 27 14:29:29 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0R7TIPq020863 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:29:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489CAB725 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:28:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Best RNG checking tools From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1075188548.5522.254.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:29:08 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:29:31 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 2004-01-27 at 00:47, David Tolpin wrote: > A grammar can be checked for ambiguity, but an ambiguous grammar is normal > for Relax NG. http://www.kohsuke.org/relaxng/meter/ Also, be aware that there are several definitions of what an "ambiguous grammar" is and that this tool is only checking the definition described in its documentation. In other words, it's a tool for a specific range of applications that may not be meeting your requirements. Eric -- Read me on XMLhack. http://xmlhack.com/author.php?id=8 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From robin.berjon@expway.fr Tue Jan 27 21:30:29 2004 Received: from mwinf0802.wanadoo.fr (smtp8.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0REUSwI076841 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:30:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from expway.fr (APastourelles-107-2-3-149.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.149]) by mwinf0802.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 076BA1800157; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:30:22 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4016759C.4020406@expway.fr> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:28:44 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Best RNG checking tools References: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200401262347.i0QNlbvo042657@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:30:29 -0000 Hi David, David Tolpin wrote: > Robin Berjon: >>I was wondering if this list had any advice on a good RelaxNG checking >>tool. So far I've fed the RNG to a validator and seen if that worked, >>but I'd like to know if there's anything that will look in depth at a >>schema and tell me if it's any good, possibly with warnings about things >>that might bite me down the road, that aren't considered good practice, >>etc. I guess I'm looking for rng-lint or something along those lines. > > Relax NG is simple enough to provide few capabilities which can be dangerous. Yes, I am aware of that, however since this is the RNG for SVG 1.2, is thus quite largeish, and may end up being normative I'd like to be extra sure :) > A grammar can be checked for ambiguity, but an ambiguous grammar is normal > for Relax NG. http://www.kohsuke.org/relaxng/meter/ > > Another thing is checking how orthogonal a grammar is, that is, that its patterns > have few common subexpressions. > > Trang (with output to xsd) can be used to find places in a grammar that should > be considered as candidates for simplification. Thanks, I'll check all these options and see how it fares. Checking orthogonality would be quite interesting as it would likely contribute to reducing the size of the schema, however since it's modularised it might be hard to get right. -- Robin Berjon From sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Jan 28 00:35:52 2004 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0RHZqvw009755 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:35:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [212.227.126.155] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AlX7v-0006uD-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:35:51 +0100 Received: from [62.156.54.27] (helo=baron) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AlX7u-0004Q2-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:35:50 +0100 Message-ID: <005101c3e4fb$f5cd42e0$1b369c3e@baron> From: "Andreas Sewe" To: "[Relax NG]" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:34:12 +0100 Organization: RBG, TU Darmstadt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:275eb74a6eb9feb006a62452721ee94c Subject: [relaxng-user] NRL: schemaType for schemas in XML X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:35:53 -0000 Hopefully this is the place for discussion about NRL as well. According to James Clark's NRL document the "validate" element's "schemaType" attribute is meant to indicate the type of the specified schema iff its not in XML. Otherwise its type can be automatically detected from the schema's namespace URI. While this is certainly true I wonder whether it's worthwhile to allow for an (optional) indication of a schema's type even in case of a XML schema. Thus a validator can e.g. reject a schema of unknown type before fetching a copy from a remote server. I envision somthing like RDDL's use of XLink's "role" attribute to indicate the nature or type of the schema specified. Thus one can write as well as Any comments? Regards, Andreas Sewe From kal@techquila.com Thu Jan 29 04:29:11 2004 Received: from he304war.uk.vianw.net (he304war.uk.vianw.net [195.102.244.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0SLTAhY057598 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:29:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [62.3.64.253] (helo=piggy.ontopia.u-net.com) by he304war.uk.vianw.net with asmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AlxFF-0005WA-7Y; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:29:09 +0000 From: Kal Ahmed To: Kohsuke Kawaguchi In-Reply-To: <20040126144029.1ECC.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> References: <1075152075.1739.7.camel@piggy.ontopia.u-net.com> <20040126144029.1ECC.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: techquila Message-Id: <1075325470.1847.2.camel@piggy.ontopia.u-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:31:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: ANN: RELAX-NG to DocBook and SVG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:29:11 -0000 You wish is my command ;-) http://www.techquila.com/rng-svg-examples/xslt.rng http://www.techquila.com/rng-svg-examples/relaxng.rng If you want to download the SVG to use locally, grab the CSS file from http://www.techquila.com/rng-svg-examples/rng-diag.css Cheers, Kal On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 22:41, Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote: > It would be nice if your web site has a few sample output :-) > > regards, > -- > Kohsuke Kawaguchi > Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com -- Kal Ahmed, Techquila Standards-based Information Management e: kal@techquila.com w: www.techquila.com p: +44 7968 529531 From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Jan 29 05:35:07 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0SMZ41S068034 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 05:35:06 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0SMXm63072871 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:33:48 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0SMXmST072870 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:33:48 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401282233.i0SMXmST072870@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:33:48 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] ANN: RNV 1.5.2 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:35:09 -0000 Hi, RNV is Relax NG (Compact Syntax) Validator. It is available from http://davidashen.net/rnv.html News since 1.4 Two ways to use extension datatype libraries are implemented for RNV; they allow to extend type-checking capabilities of Relax NG for data far beyond the scope of XML Schema datatypes. RNV now parses external system entities, it was my omission not to implement this earlier, and I am glad it is done now. Memory usage and diagnostics have been improved, and the source code has been rearranged again for better modularity. Sincerely, David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Jan 29 05:48:34 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0SMmVcS069899 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 05:48:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0SMlH63073037 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:47:17 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0SMlH4J073036 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:47:17 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401282247.i0SMlH4J073036@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] ANN: RNV 1.5.2 In-Reply-To: <200401282233.i0SMXmST072870@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:47:17 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:48:34 -0000 > http://davidashen.net/rnv.html > > Two ways to use extension datatype libraries are implemented for RNV; Forgot to mention: a Scheme implementation of XML Schema regular expressions is a part of the distribution; it makes possible to conveniently debug regular expressions by writing: (define addr-spec-regex (let* ( (atom "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\\-/=?\\^_`{|}~]+") (person "\"([^"\\\\]|\\\\.)\"") (location "\\[([^\\[\\]\\\\]|\\\\.)*\\]") (domain (string-append atom "(\\." atom ")*"))) (string-append "(" domain "|" person ")" "@" "(" domain "|" location ")"))) ... (rx-match (rx-compile addr-spec-regex) s) instead of: pattern= "(\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\) )?" ~ "([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" ~ "(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*" ~ """|"([^"\\]|\\.)*")""" ~ "@" ~ "([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" ~ "(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*" ~ "|\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\])" ~ "( \(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\))?" David Tolpin From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Fri Jan 30 21:19:05 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0UEJ4wI097617 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:19:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0UEIUhS030597 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:18:46 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:18:31 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E22DA@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:18:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: [relaxng-user] nrl error reporting. X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:19:05 -0000 Trying to use nrl. I'm getting an error report of >atom.xml:64: error: element "div" from namespace "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" not allowed in this context Great... except there's no information as to which validation step its reporting from. The file is OK against the main schema with jing. I have in use, within the default ns, so I'd have thought I could at least catch xhtml content. the instance is along the lines 2004-01-28T13:00:00 2004-01-28T14:00:00 2004-01-28T14:00:00Z where everything above xhtml:div is in the ns http://purl.org/atom/ns#. The rules file reads: Regards DaveP. **** snip here ***** - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Jan 30 23:59:28 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0UGxA1a022201 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:59:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0UGwKju010970 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:58:20 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i0UGwK7Y010969 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:58:20 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200401301658.i0UGwK7Y010969@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:58:20 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] regular expressions X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:59:29 -0000 Hi, I have built and put on the server for download RNV for Win32 (built with cygwin tools). rnv there has pluggable datatypes support turned on and allows to specify regular expressions split in named parts. http://www2.davidashen.net/rnv-1.5.5-cygwin32bin.zip Readme is cygwin\readme-rnv.txt Sample is cd cygwin\usr\local\lib\rnv\samples rnv -e ../scm/dsl.scm addr-spec-dsl.rnc addr-spec.xml And the regexp looks like: s-pattern=""" comment = "\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\)" atom = "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" atoms = atom "(\." atom ")*" person = "\"([^\"\\]|\\.)*\"" location = "\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\]" local-part = "(" atom "|" person ")" domain = "(" atoms "|" location ")" start = "(" comment " )?" local-part "@" domain "( " comment ")?" """ It helps me debug long regular expressions; hopefully, it will also be useful to others. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From bob@objfac.com Sat Jan 31 14:09:40 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i0V79dC9038839 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:09:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-24-118-242-255.mn.client2.attbi.com [24.118.242.255]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A4A149695 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:09:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <401B54B3.40304@objfac.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 01:09:39 -0600 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Relax NG support in JAXB? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 07:09:41 -0000 Does anyone (Kohsuke?) know if RNG support is part of JAXB 1.3? The instructions for installing it in 1.0 are a bit outdated are refer to a jar that has moved or been consolidated. Thanks. Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ From kk@kohsuke.org Sun Feb 1 11:44:21 2004 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dsl092-249-235.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.249.235]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id i114iK66078587 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:44:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: (melon started for [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:44:13 -0800 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:44:13 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <401B54B3.40304@objfac.com> References: <401B54B3.40304@objfac.com> Message-Id: <20040131204203.F2BC.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-MTA: MELON SMTP Server version 1.28 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Relax NG support in JAXB? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 04:44:22 -0000 > Does anyone (Kohsuke?) know if RNG support is part of JAXB 1.3? The > instructions for installing it in 1.0 are a bit outdated are refer to a > jar that has moved or been consolidated. Thanks. It's now an integrated part (although still "experimental") of JWSDP 1.3, and it works out of the box. Documentations are all included in JWSDP 1.3, or you can find them online at: http://java.sun.com/webservices/docs/1.3/jaxb/relaxng.html regards, ---------------------- Kohsuke Kawaguchi E-Mail: kk@kohsuke.org From Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com Sun Feb 1 23:27:57 2004 Received: from pinea.xerox.fr (pinea.xerox.fr [217.109.185.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i11GRumX048629 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:27:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB3A58695; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:27:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 31543-03; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:27:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.10]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A8858692; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:27:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.103]) by meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id i11GRs9W020347; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:27:54 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200402011627.i11GRs9W020347@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:27:54 +0100 (MET) From: Ken Beesley To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 5Whxm51vtYD4kgi9f0J0Fg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.2_04 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at example.com Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] Can Jing simply ignore ? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ken Beesley List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 16:27:57 -0000 Question: Can Jing simply ignore ? I'm using Relax NG with Jing on Solaris and Apple OS X. Great stuff. But here's my little problem/challenge: I've got a set of XML documents (Apple OS X XML keylayout files), old and new, with at the top. When these keylayout files are installed in OS X, they will get DTD-validated by the system. (This is done in the background, with any XML errors being written to obscure log files, so it's very awkward for people like me who are trying to develop new keylayout files. So during development I'd prefer to do my own validation based on a tighter Relax NG schema and perhaps other semantic processing. I have written a Relax NG schema for these keylayout files, but the declaration is in the way. Can I somehow tell Jing to simply ignore the definition and validate the rest of the document using the specified Relax NG schema? Thanks, Ken ********************************************************************** Kenneth R. Beesley ken.beesley At xrce DoT xerox DoT com Xerox Research Centre Europe Tel from France: 04 76 61 50 64 6, chemin de Maupertuis Tel from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 64 38240 MEYLAN Fax from France: 04 76 61 50 99 France Fax from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 99 XRCE page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com Personal page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com/people/beesley/home.html ********************************************************************** From gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Mon Feb 2 00:19:25 2004 Received: from mail.storm.ca (mail.storm.ca [209.87.239.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i11HJPiT058871 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:19:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from CRANE-T23.CraneSoftwrights.com (ppp-216-106-103-19.storm.ca [216.106.103.19]) by mail.storm.ca (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i11HJNp15563 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:19:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040201121429.00bdb768@pop.storm.ca> X-Sender: crane@pop.storm.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 12:19:18 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Can Jing simply ignore ? In-Reply-To: <200402011627.i11GRs9W020347@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:19:25 -0000 At 2004-02-01 17:27 +0100, Ken Beesley wrote: >Question: Can Jing simply ignore ? I believe the answer is "no". The SYSTEM identifier needs to be followed for well-formedness checking, but you can point that system identifier to a file without ELEMENT declarations (or with ELEMENT declarations unrelated to the instance) and Jing will respect your command line argument RNG file and ignore the model declarations in the document type definition. >So during development I'd prefer to do >my own validation based on a tighter Relax NG schema and perhaps >other semantic processing. I have written a Relax NG schema >for these keylayout files, but the declaration >is in the way. But not because if its content model constraint declarations ... those are being ignored. You still need it there in case there are any entities that are needed by the document. >Can I somehow tell Jing to simply ignore the >definition and validate the rest of the document using the >specified Relax NG schema? As with MSV, Jing needs to follow the SYSTEM identifier but it will ignore any content model constraints ... so can you put in the place of the DTD location even an empty file and things should proceed. I hope this helps. ......................... Ken -- Public courses: sign up for one or both soon to reserve your seat! Each week: Monday-Wednesday: XSLT/XPath; Thursday-Friday: XSL-FO Washington, DC: 2004-03-15 San Francisco, CA: 2004-03-22 Hong Kong, China: 2004-05-17 Bremen, Germany: 2004-05-24 World-wide on-site corporate, government & user group XML training G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc From kk@kohsuke.org Mon Feb 2 00:25:38 2004 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dsl092-249-235.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.249.235]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id i11HPbu7059530 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:25:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: (melon started for [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 01 Feb 2004 09:25:31 -0800 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 09:25:32 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Can Jing simply ignore ? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040201121429.00bdb768@pop.storm.ca> References: <200402011627.i11GRs9W020347@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040201121429.00bdb768@pop.storm.ca> Message-Id: <20040201092442.A8C9.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-MTA: MELON SMTP Server version 1.28 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:25:38 -0000 > As with MSV, Jing needs to follow the SYSTEM identifier but it will ignore > any content model constraints ... so can you put in the place of the DTD > location even an empty file and things should proceed. Actually, MSV has an option to completely ignore an external DTD. In this mode, the parser will behave as if it didn't see the DOCTYPE declaration. regards, ---------------------- Kohsuke Kawaguchi E-Mail: kk@kohsuke.org From Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com Mon Feb 2 20:22:49 2004 Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([217.109.185.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i12DMmak043199 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:22:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B06058692 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:21:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 18941-05 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:21:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.10]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 219F35868D for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:21:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.103]) by meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id i12DLk9W010089 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:21:47 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200402021321.i12DLk9W010089@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:21:47 +0100 (MET) From: Ken Beesley To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 26wdxZg1jlqYGIAlwM9Bvg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.2_04 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at example.com Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Can Jing simply ignore X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ken Beesley List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:22:49 -0000 > From: Ken Beesley > Question: Can Jing simply ignore ? > From: "G. Ken Holman" > I believe the answer is "no". > > The SYSTEM identifier needs to be followed for well-formedness checking, > but you can point that system identifier to a file without ELEMENT > declarations (or with ELEMENT declarations unrelated to the instance) and > Jing will respect your command line argument RNG file and ignore the model > declarations in the document type definition. Dear Mr. Holman, Thanks for the response. Yes, I can modify the declaration, or just eliminate it completely in this case, for Relax NG validation, but I was hoping to avoid that very step. I just want to ignore the rascal when validating with Relax NG. > You still need it there in case there are any entities that > are needed by the document. In this case there are no entities--just the SYSTEM identification of the DTD to be used for DTD-validation. > > As with MSV, Jing needs to follow the SYSTEM identifier but it will ignore > > any content model constraints ... so can you put in the place of the DTD > > location even an empty file and things should proceed. > From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi > Actually, MSV has an option to completely ignore an external DTD. In > this mode, the parser will behave as if it didn't see the DOCTYPE > declaration. Dear Mr. Kawaguchi, Thanks for your response. First, I am not an expert in this area, and I appreciate the reference to MSV, which I wasn't aware of before. I now have it installed and working. The documentation of the -standalone option in msv says: "The switch prevents MSV from resolving external resources (such as external DTDs referenced from documents, or external entities). This is applicable ONLY WHEN YOU ARE USING Xerces." (emphasis added) Indeed, when I specify -standalone, MSV tries to use Xerces rather than Relax NG. I could of course be doing something wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. Ken ********************************************************************** Kenneth R. Beesley ken.beesley At xrce DoT xerox DoT com Xerox Research Centre Europe Tel from France: 04 76 61 50 64 6, chemin de Maupertuis Tel from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 64 38240 MEYLAN Fax from France: 04 76 61 50 99 France Fax from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 99 XRCE page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com Personal page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com/people/beesley/home.html ********************************************************************** From Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com Mon Feb 2 20:38:42 2004 Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([217.109.185.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i12Dcfrx045641 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:38:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE1058695 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:37:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 19132-09 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:37:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.10]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DE65868D for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:37:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (allemont.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.103]) by meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id i12Dbd9W010497 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:37:39 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200402021337.i12Dbd9W010497@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:37:39 +0100 (MET) From: Ken Beesley To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: d08kop49GlNFIeuOg9WNaA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.2_04 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at example.com Subject: [relaxng-user] Relax NG schema to match entity-reference ints? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ken Beesley List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:38:42 -0000 Question: Relax NG schema to match entity-reference ints? I have existing xml files, originally written for DTD validation, that contain entity-reference integers as attribute values, e.g. the value of the 'output' attribute in ... In general, the value of the output attribute can be a list of integers with values ranging from 0x1 to 0x10FFFF inclusive. So the question is this: Can I write a Relax NG schema that matches and constrains the value of these 'output' attributes, written in this hex-entity-reference form? I tried the following, which didn't work: 1 111411 Jing complains 'error: bad value for attribute "output"' Suggestions and corrections would be welcome. Ken ********************************************************************** Kenneth R. Beesley ken.beesley At xrce DoT xerox DoT com Xerox Research Centre Europe Tel from France: 04 76 61 50 64 6, chemin de Maupertuis Tel from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 64 38240 MEYLAN Fax from France: 04 76 61 50 99 France Fax from Abroad: +33 4 76 61 50 99 XRCE page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com Personal page: http://www.xrce.xerox.com/people/beesley/home.html ********************************************************************** From davidc@nag.co.uk Mon Feb 2 20:52:21 2004 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id i12DqKVl048577 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:21 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1075729934!4645941 X-StarScan-Version: 5.1.15; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 1285 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2004 13:52:14 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-4.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2004 13:52:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 12946 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2004 13:52:12 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 2 Feb 2004 13:52:12 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27677; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:51:59 GMT Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:51:54 GMT Message-Id: <200402021351.NAA12667@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id NAA12667; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:51:54 GMT From: David Carlisle To: Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com In-reply-to: <200402021337.i12Dbd9W010497@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> (message from Ken Beesley on Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:37:39 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Relax NG schema to match entity-reference ints? References: <200402021337.i12Dbd9W010497@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:52:21 -0000 that contain entity-reference integers as attribute values, e.g. the value of the 'output' attribute in After the XML parse that character (not entity) reference will be indistinguishable from the character referenced. So, you can't use an integer based constraint, but if your validator supports regexp constraints (eg if it includes xsd:string and its pattern facets) then you could use a regexp to constrain them. The constraint that you gave as an example (less than 10FFFF) isn't required as if the input uses the & # syntax with a number bigger than that it would not be well formed XML. or of course you can change your instances to match your description In general, the value of the output attribute can be a list of integers with values ranging from 0x1 to 0x10FFFF inclusive. in which case you don't want the & # ; syntax, just David -- http://www.dcarlisle.demon.co.uk/matthew ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Feb 3 06:33:02 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i12NX12D017032 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:33:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i12NX0Vo028556 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:33:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HSH00MLFDEZ43@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:33:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HSH00MBMDEZ1P@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:32:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:32:59 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi In-reply-to: <200402021321.i12DLk9W010089@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20040202153257.4A70.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200402021321.i12DLk9W010089@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Can Jing simply ignore X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:33:02 -0000 > Dear Mr. Kawaguchi, > > Thanks for your response. > > First, I am not an expert in this area, and I appreciate the reference > to MSV, which I wasn't aware of before. I now have it installed and > working. > > The documentation of the -standalone option in msv says: > > "The switch prevents MSV from resolving external resources (such > as external DTDs referenced from documents, or external entities). > This is applicable ONLY WHEN YOU ARE USING Xerces." > > (emphasis added) > > Indeed, when I specify -standalone, MSV tries to use Xerces rather > than Relax NG. I could of course be doing something wrong, but > that's what it looks like to me. Yeah, MSV will use Xerces as a parser to do the RELAX NG validation. Xerces will be only used as a parser, then MSV will do the RELAX NG validation. I don't see anything wrong with this. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From bob@objfac.com Tue Feb 3 08:52:44 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i131qhcb058848 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:52:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-24-118-242-255.mn.client2.attbi.com [24.118.242.255]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0498B1496B0 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:52:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <401EFEE9.1070006@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:52:41 -0600 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Can Jing simply ignore References: <200402021321.i12DLk9W010089@meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com> <20040202153257.4A70.KK@kohsuke.org> In-Reply-To: <20040202153257.4A70.KK@kohsuke.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 01:52:45 -0000 I believe this means that in order to implement -standalone, MSV had to use a Xerces-dependent option. Not all parsers support the ability to ignore a DOCTYPE declaration. (Though I don't know, it is probably the case that Crimson doesn't, or MSV would likely support it, too, for this feature.) It does _not_ mean that if you select this option, Xerces will validate instead of MSV. Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote: >>Dear Mr. Kawaguchi, >> >>Thanks for your response. >> >>First, I am not an expert in this area, and I appreciate the reference >>to MSV, which I wasn't aware of before. I now have it installed and >>working. >> >>The documentation of the -standalone option in msv says: >> >>"The switch prevents MSV from resolving external resources (such >>as external DTDs referenced from documents, or external entities). >>This is applicable ONLY WHEN YOU ARE USING Xerces." >> >>(emphasis added) >> >>Indeed, when I specify -standalone, MSV tries to use Xerces rather >>than Relax NG. I could of course be doing something wrong, but >>that's what it looks like to me. > > > Yeah, MSV will use Xerces as a parser to do the RELAX NG validation. > Xerces will be only used as a parser, then MSV will do the RELAX NG > validation. > > I don't see anything wrong with this. > > regards, > -- > Kohsuke Kawaguchi > Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From mhuggett@zam.att.ne.jp Fri Feb 6 16:36:12 2004 Received: from smtp2.att.ne.jp (smtp2.att.ne.jp [165.76.15.138]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i169aBYc076222 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:36:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from zam.att.ne.jp (218.231.212.141.eo.eaccess.ne.jp [218.231.212.141]) by smtp2.att.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9B526729 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:36:09 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <40236005.1060108@zam.att.ne.jp> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:36:05 +0900 From: Matthew Huggett User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7a) Gecko/20040117 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, ja, zh-tw MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] markup not well-formed? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 09:36:12 -0000 Hi: I've just written my first relaxng schema. I wrote it in Emacs running the nxml mode. According to nxml, my schema is valid, but when I use Jing to validate a test xml doc, Jing complains that the markup declarations pointed to by the doctype declaration aren't well-formed. Which to believe? Thanks, Matthew Huggett From bob@objfac.com Fri Feb 6 17:55:11 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i16AtAZW084545 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:55:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C76A14969C; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 02:55:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <40237212.5080502@objfac.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:53:06 -0600 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Huggett Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] markup not well-formed? References: <40236005.1060108@zam.att.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <40236005.1060108@zam.att.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:55:11 -0000 Matthew Huggett wrote: > Hi: > > I've just written my first relaxng schema. I wrote it in Emacs running > the nxml mode. According to nxml, my schema is valid, but when I use > Jing to validate a test xml doc, Jing complains that the markup > declarations pointed to by the doctype declaration aren't well-formed. > Which to believe? > Thanks, Both, probably. Sounds like you're trying to use a system id in a DOCTYPE to point to a relaxng schema. That won't work. The DOCTYPE can only point to DTDs. Take out the DOCTYPE declaration, specify the document and the schema on the Jing command line. Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Feb 10 00:00:56 2004 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19H0tmI009530 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:00:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i19GvtS3000500 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:57:55 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i19H0knp019282 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:00:49 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06gb.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:00:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:00:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:00:57 -0000 I'm trying to figure out how I can specify that an element must have at least one of a certain set of attributes and may have the others as well. If the attributes are called x, y, and z, I could say something like ((x & y? &z?) | (x? & y & z?)| (x? & y? & z)), but it doesn't scale up well. Something like attlist.a = (attribute x {text}, attribute y {text}, attribute z {text})+ gives me an error because it allows for more than one of any individual attribute. Any suggestions? thanks, Bob From gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Tue Feb 10 00:25:28 2004 Received: from mail.storm.ca (mail.storm.ca [209.87.239.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19HPRfK013773 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:25:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from CRANE-T23.CraneSoftwrights.com (ppp-216-106-109-54.storm.ca [216.106.109.54]) by mail.storm.ca (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i19HPEY18656 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:25:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040209122223.019084b8@pop.storm.ca> X-Sender: crane@pop.storm.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 12:25:02 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:25:28 -0000 At 2004-02-09 12:00 -0500, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: >I'm trying to figure out how I can specify that an element must have at >least one of a certain set of attributes and may have the others as well. If >the attributes are called x, y, and z, I could say something like ((x & y? >&z?) | (x? & y & z?)| (x? & y? & z)), but it doesn't scale up well. >Something like > > attlist.a = > (attribute x {text}, > attribute y {text}, > attribute z {text})+ Close, Bob ... just change "," to "|". ...................... Ken Y:\samp>type bob.rnc start = element doc { attlist.a } attlist.a = (attribute x {text} | attribute y {text} | attribute z {text})+ Y:\samp>type bob.xml Y:\samp>jing -c bob.rnc bob.xml Y:\samp\bob.xml:1: error: unfinished element Y:\samp>type bob2.xml Y:\samp>jing -c bob.rnc bob2.xml Y:\samp>type bob3.xml Y:\samp>jing -c bob.rnc bob3.xml Y:\samp> -- Public courses: upcoming world tour of hands-on XSL training events Each week: Monday-Wednesday: XSLT/XPath; Thursday-Friday: XSL-FO Washington, DC: 2004-03-15 San Francisco, CA: 2004-03-22 Hong Kong: 2004-05-17 Germany: 2004-05-24 England: 2004-06-07 World-wide on-site corporate, government & user group XML training! G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Tue Feb 10 00:30:29 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19HUSKF014576 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:30:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75DD2522F6; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:30:24 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040209172908.02644518@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:30:16 +0000 To: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:30:29 -0000 At 17:00 09/02/2004, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: >I'm trying to figure out how I can specify that an element must have at >least one of a certain set of attributes and may have the others as well. a b c a b c Does that work? regards DaveP From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Feb 10 00:47:05 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19Hl5eZ017713 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:47:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA12451; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:47:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:46:59 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice Message-ID: <20040209174658.GB2599@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:47:06 -0000 DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) scripsit: > I'm trying to figure out how I can specify that an element must have at > least one of a certain set of attributes and may have the others as well. An obvious approach would be to use NRL to apply two different schemas. The first makes all the attributes optional. The second, which should fail, has no attributes. If you pass the first and fail the second, you win. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com Be yourself. Especially do not feign a working knowledge of RDF where no such knowledge exists. Neither be cynical about RELAX NG; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment in the world of markup, James Clark is as perennial as the grass. --DeXiderata, Sean McGrath From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Feb 10 02:26:12 2004 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19JQBUi033784 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:26:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i19JN4S3003230; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:23:04 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i19JQ0np007805; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:26:00 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06gb.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:26:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: "'G. Ken Holman'" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:25:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:26:12 -0000 Thanks Ken! That worked. Maybe I was misunderstanding the problem of the original one, though, because the syntax of the solution still seems to tell me that multiple x attributes are OK in the element. Bob -----Original Message----- From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org]On Behalf Of G. Ken Holman Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 12:25 PM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice At 2004-02-09 12:00 -0500, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: >I'm trying to figure out how I can specify that an element must have at >least one of a certain set of attributes and may have the others as well. If >the attributes are called x, y, and z, I could say something like ((x & y? >&z?) | (x? & y & z?)| (x? & y? & z)), but it doesn't scale up well. >Something like > > attlist.a = > (attribute x {text}, > attribute y {text}, > attribute z {text})+ Close, Bob ... just change "," to "|". ...................... Ken Y:\samp>type bob.rnc start = element doc { attlist.a } attlist.a = (attribute x {text} | attribute y {text} | attribute z {text})+ Y:\samp>type bob.xml Y:\samp>jing -c bob.rnc bob.xml Y:\samp\bob.xml:1: error: unfinished element Y:\samp>type bob2.xml Y:\samp>jing -c bob.rnc bob2.xml Y:\samp>type bob3.xml Y:\samp>jing -c bob.rnc bob3.xml Y:\samp> -- Public courses: upcoming world tour of hands-on XSL training events Each week: Monday-Wednesday: XSLT/XPath; Thursday-Friday: XSL-FO Washington, DC: 2004-03-15 San Francisco, CA: 2004-03-22 Hong Kong: 2004-05-17 Germany: 2004-05-24 England: 2004-06-07 World-wide on-site corporate, government & user group XML training! G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Tue Feb 10 03:42:32 2004 Received: from mail.storm.ca (mail.storm.ca [209.87.239.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19KgVGr046677 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:42:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from CRANE-T23.CraneSoftwrights.com (ppp-216-106-109-54.storm.ca [216.106.109.54]) by mail.storm.ca (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i19KgTY21748 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:42:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040209153831.0194bfb8@pop.storm.ca> X-Sender: crane@pop.storm.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:42:25 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:42:32 -0000 At 2004-02-09 14:25 -0500, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: >Thanks Ken! That worked. Maybe I was misunderstanding the problem of the >original one, though, because the syntax of the solution still seems to tell >me that multiple x attributes are OK in the element. But that wouldn't be well-formed. My reasoning was that a well-formedness checker would stop the XML instance before the semantics of RELAX-NG validation would kick in. So the fact that the semantics might allow two "x" attributes is moot because it would never have the opportunity to check two "x" attributes. So I figured that as long as the instance was well-formed, the content model would accommodate your stated requirements ... and it seems to work with Jing. Perhaps I've made an improper assumption? That was my gut answer to your question and it seemed to work. Should I instead be going through the two two-pass processes suggested by Dave and John? That seems more complex. .................... Ken -- Public courses: upcoming world tour of hands-on XSL training events Each week: Monday-Wednesday: XSLT/XPath; Thursday-Friday: XSL-FO Washington, DC: 2004-03-15 San Francisco, CA: 2004-03-22 Hong Kong: 2004-05-17 Germany: 2004-05-24 England: 2004-06-07 World-wide on-site corporate, government & user group XML training! G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Feb 10 04:15:51 2004 Received: from vagabond.davidashen.net (mail@[195.18.32.215]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i19LFnOa052823 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:15:50 +0700 (ICT) Received: from dvd by vagabond.davidashen.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AqIo3-0000Kw-00 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:19:03 +0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040209153831.0194bfb8@pop.storm.ca> Message-Id: From: David Tolpin Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:19:03 +0400 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:15:53 -0000 > From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Feb 10 00:53:46 2004 > Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:42:25 -0500 > To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > From: "G. Ken Holman" > Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] specifying attribute choice > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 2004-02-09 14:25 -0500, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > >Thanks Ken! That worked. Maybe I was misunderstanding the problem of the > >original one, though, because the syntax of the solution still seems to tell > >me that multiple x attributes are OK in the element. > > But that wouldn't be well-formed. My reasoning was that a well-formedness > checker would stop the XML instance before the semantics of RELAX-NG > validation would kick in. So the fact that the semantics might allow two > "x" attributes is moot because it would never have the opportunity to check > two "x" attributes. The original solution, with group (the same as interleave for attributes) does not work because of restriction 7.1.2, namely, oneOrMore//group//attribute is not allowed. And it is not what you want anyway. oneOrMore//choice//attribute is allowed, Ken is right. It specifies the grammar you need because of well-formedness restriction. David Tolpin From Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com Fri Feb 20 19:17:20 2004 Received: from pinea.xerox.fr (pinea.xerox.fr [217.109.185.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1KCHJXc014156 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:17:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F225586A0 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 13296-09 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.10]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2977F5868A for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from xrce.xerox.com (armand.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.160]) by meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i1KCHH9V017017 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:17 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <4035FACD.4000903@xrce.xerox.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:17 +0100 From: Ken Beesley User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at example.com Subject: [relaxng-user] Problem defining list of enumerated string values X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:17:20 -0000 I'm having trouble defining a Relax NG schema to match an element that contains a list of strings that are constrained to be from a (large) enumeration of possible values. The element will look something like this a b space bell where the content is a whitespace-separated list of one to four strings. The allowable strings must be enumerated somewhere in the schema. *** I suspect that there's an embarrassingly simple solution, but so far I haven't found it. I tried with a b c ... space bell etc ... But I get the message that "the enumeration facet is not allowed-- use value element instead". So then I tried the following, with elements a b c ... space bell etc ... but it didn't like that either. The error message tells me that "only param and except child elements are allowed" !!! I tried putting ... around the elements, but that was duly rejected. I also tried a b c ... space bell etc ... but seems to want to contain elements. ******************************************************* So, just how does one write a schema that accepts elements like z foo bar veep where the items of the list come from a (large) enumeration of allowed strings. Thanks, Ken Beesley ken.beesley@xrce.xerox.com From Ken.Beesley@xrce.xerox.com Sat Feb 21 00:16:19 2004 Received: from pinea.xerox.fr (pinea.xerox.fr [217.109.185.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1KHGHLw055342 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:16:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448C15868A for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:16:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from pinea.xerox.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail-gw [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10027) with ESMTP id 18117-04 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:16:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.10]) by pinea.xerox.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7A258689 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:16:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from xrce.xerox.com (armand.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com [13.202.220.160]) by meije.grenoble.xrce.xerox.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i1KHGF9V024072 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:16:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <403640DF.3030002@xrce.xerox.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:16:15 +0100 From: Ken Beesley User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at example.com Subject: [relaxng-user] Found limit of 490 in Jing X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:16:21 -0000 In my previous message, I reported that I was unable to achieve Relax NG validation for elements like a b c cat where the items in the list were strings from a large enumerated list. It appears to be a problem of sheer quantity. I was using Jing. When I have and a b c ... dog cat I find that if the element contains 490 elements, or fewer, then everything works fine in Jing. 491 or more, and I get a long string of error messages (sample below). With MSV, I haven't yet found a limit. I'm back in business with MSV. Ken. at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.ChoicePattern.apply(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.Pattern.applyForPattern(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivType.dataDeriv(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.ValueDataDerivType.dataDeriv(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.PatternMemo.dataDeriv(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivFunction.memoApply(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivFunction.caseChoice(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.ChoicePattern.apply(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.Pattern.applyForPattern(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivType.dataDeriv(Unknown Source) From sean.mcgrath@propylon.com Mon Feb 23 20:27:15 2004 Received: from mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.18]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id i1NDRF2B026364 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:27:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 55444 messnum 350663 invoked from network[159.134.221.132/159-134-221-132.as1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net]); 23 Feb 2004 13:27:08 -0000 Received: from 159-134-221-132.as1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net (HELO seanmcgrath05.propylon.com) (159.134.221.132) by mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 55444) with SMTP; 23 Feb 2004 13:27:08 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> X-Sender: sean@mail.digitome.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:29:39 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Sean McGrath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] Modules, start patterns, driver files, trang - sanity check X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:27:16 -0000 All, I'm soliciting advise on how best to implement Relax modules that are both usable "standalone" and usable as modules in larger modules and larger standalone schemas. My first thought was to give each module its own start pattern. So, lets say I have modules A and B that I wish to use standalone and also as parts of a bigger module AB. 1) I give each module a start pattern. 2) When I include a module in a larger module, I override its start pattern Example: File A.rnc - a standalone schema and a module A = element a { text } start = A File B.rnc - a standalone schema and a module B = element b { text } start = B File AB.rnc - a standalone schema and a module. It includes two sub-modules, A and B include "a.rnc" { start = AB } include "b.rnc" { start = AB } AB = element ab { A , B } start = AB However, trang complains with this approach, when generating XSD's: - multiple definitions of "#start" without "combine" attribute If it is the case that I can only override the start pattern once per schema, then I can switch to using driver schemas. 1) Do not put a start pattern into any module 2) Create a "driver" schema that includes the module and provides a start pattern Example: File A.rnc - a module A = element a { text } File A_driver.rnc - driver file to make schema A work standalone include "A.rnc" start = A File B.rnc - a module B = element b { text } File B_driver.rnc - driver file to make schema B work standalone include "B.rnc" start = B File AB.rnc - a module that includes two sub-modules, A and B include "a.rnc" include "b.rnc" AB = element ab { A , B } File AB_driver.rnc - driver file to make schema AB work standalone include "AB.rnc" start = AB Am I correct that the start patten can only be overridden once per schema? Is the driver approach a good way to go or are there better alternatives? regards, Sean McGrath http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com From darolst@pantor.com Mon Feb 23 20:42:22 2004 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([80.252.175.114]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1NDgLKs028045 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:42:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com ([10.0.0.227]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1NDgJuN005382 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:42:19 +0100 Message-ID: <403A033B.5080000@pantor.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:42:19 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Modules, start patterns, driver files, trang - sanity check References: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:42:22 -0000 Hi Sean, Multiple start patterns (definitions in general) are only allowed if you specify a combine attribute. In the compact syntax you would use the |= or &= operator as in: include "A.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } include "B.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } AB = element ab { a, b } start |= AB This translates into a start pattern where only AB is allowed. Cheers, David Sean McGrath wrote: > All, > > I'm soliciting advise on how best to implement Relax modules that are > both usable "standalone" and usable as modules in larger modules and > larger standalone schemas. > > My first thought was to give each module its own start pattern. So, > lets say I have modules A and B that I wish to use standalone and also > as parts of a bigger module AB. > > 1) I give each module a start pattern. > > 2) When I include a module in a larger module, I override its > start pattern > > Example: > > File A.rnc - a standalone schema and a module > A = element a { text } > start = A > > File B.rnc - a standalone schema and a module > B = element b { text } > start = B > > File AB.rnc - a standalone schema and a module. It includes two > sub-modules, A and B > include "a.rnc" { start = AB } > include "b.rnc" { start = AB } > > AB = element ab { A , B } > start = AB > > However, trang complains with this approach, when generating XSD's: > - multiple definitions of "#start" without "combine" attribute > > If it is the case that I can only override the start pattern once per > schema, then I can switch to using driver schemas. > 1) Do not put a start pattern into any module > > 2) Create a "driver" schema that includes the module and > provides a start pattern > > > Example: > > File A.rnc - a module > A = element a { text } > > File A_driver.rnc - driver file to make schema A work standalone > include "A.rnc" > start = A > > File B.rnc - a module > B = element b { text } > > File B_driver.rnc - driver file to make schema B work standalone > include "B.rnc" > start = B > > File AB.rnc - a module that includes two sub-modules, A and B > include "a.rnc" > include "b.rnc" > > AB = element ab { A , B } > > File AB_driver.rnc - driver file to make schema AB work standalone > include "AB.rnc" > start = AB > > Am I correct that the start patten can only be overridden once per > schema? Is the driver approach a good way to go or are there better > alternatives? > > regards, > > Sean McGrath > http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Feb 23 20:43:09 2004 Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1NDh9Qe028153 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:43:09 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: s9TKTB9i6sAmEKQyHeJUBg 1077543275 Received: from [134.53.144.40] (ip134-053-144-040.s144.muohio.edu [134.53.144.40]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218675D8B05; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:34:33 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <71F0BB9D-6605-11D8-AFDF-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Modules, start patterns, driver files, trang - sanity check Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:37:37 -0500 To: Sean McGrath X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:43:09 -0000 On Feb 23, 2004, at 8:29 AM, Sean McGrath wrote: > I'm soliciting advise on how best to implement Relax modules that are > both usable "standalone" and usable as modules in larger modules and > larger standalone schemas. > > My first thought was to give each module its own start pattern. Sean, I got some help on the list awhile ago trying to do something like this. Here's my example. I combine two standalone schema into a third, which is defined like so: -------------------------------------- include "biblio-notes.rnc" include "mods-3-0.rnc" { extension-content = ( xnoteset | xnote ) } -------------------------------------- The first start pattern is defined like this: start |= ( xnoteset | xnote ) And the second like: start |= ModsSchema Am in a hurry, and am not much of expert either, but I hope this helps. It works well for me. Bruce From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Feb 23 21:01:51 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1NE1luq030405 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:01:50 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1NE04ki069934; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:00:04 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i1NE04vi069933; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:00:04 +0400 (AMT) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:00:04 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200402231400.i1NE04vi069933@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, sean.mcgrath@propylon.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Modules, start patterns, driver files, trang - sanity check In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:01:52 -0000 > File A.rnc - a standalone schema and a module > A = element a { text } > start = A > > File B.rnc - a standalone schema and a module > B = element b { text } > start = B > > File AB.rnc - a standalone schema and a module. It includes two > sub-modules, A and B > include "a.rnc" { start = AB } > include "b.rnc" { start = AB } > > AB = element ab { A , B } > start = AB File AB.rnc include "a.rnc" {start|=notAllowed} include "b.rnc" {start|=notAllowed} AB = element ab {A, B} From sean.mcgrath@propylon.com Mon Feb 23 21:07:46 2004 Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id i1NE7js9031309 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:07:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 35805 messnum 382138 invoked from network[159.134.221.132/159-134-221-132.as1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net]); 23 Feb 2004 14:07:39 -0000 Received: from 159-134-221-132.as1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net (HELO seanmcgrath05.propylon.com) (159.134.221.132) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 35805) with SMTP; 23 Feb 2004 14:07:39 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223140918.00aa75a0@mail.digitome.com> X-Sender: sean@mail.digitome.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:09:58 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Sean McGrath Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Modules, start patterns, driver files, trang - sanity check In-Reply-To: <200402231400.i1NE04vi069933@adat.davidashen.net> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20040223132937.02783660@mail.digitome.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:07:46 -0000 Thanks to both David Rosenborg and David Tolpin. The notAllowed trick works a treat. thanks, Sean At 18:00 23/02/2004 +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > > File A.rnc - a standalone schema and a module > > A = element a { text } > > start = A > > > > File B.rnc - a standalone schema and a module > > B = element b { text } > > start = B > > > > File AB.rnc - a standalone schema and a module. It includes two > > sub-modules, A and B > > include "a.rnc" { start = AB } > > include "b.rnc" { start = AB } > > > > AB = element ab { A , B } > > start = AB > >File AB.rnc > >include "a.rnc" {start|=notAllowed} >include "b.rnc" {start|=notAllowed} > >AB = element ab {A, B} Sean McGrath http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Feb 25 00:16:40 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1OHGdlY068867 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:16:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDBC2545F9; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:16:35 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040224171540.026af8e0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:16:20 +0000 To: Ken Beesley , relaxng-user From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Found limit of 490 in Jing In-Reply-To: <403640DF.3030002@xrce.xerox.com> References: <403640DF.3030002@xrce.xerox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:16:42 -0000 At 17:16 20/02/2004, Ken Beesley wrote: >With MSV, I haven't yet found a limit. I'm back in business with MSV. I'd be happier if I could persuade msv to work. Any tips Ken? regards DaveP From simonstl@simonstl.com Wed Feb 25 00:25:43 2004 Received: from serrano.hesketh.net (mail.hesketh.net [216.27.21.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1OHPgdo070323 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:25:42 +0700 (ICT) X-Received-From: simonstl@simonstl.com X-Delivered-To: X-Originating-IP: [24.58.125.32] Received: from 192.168.124.11 (syr-24-58-125-32.twcny.rr.com [24.58.125.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by serrano.hesketh.net (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1OHPTZa031991 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:25:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:25:34 -0500 From: "Simon St.Laurent" To: relaxng-user X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 2.0.2 (Blindsider) Subject: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG book, very cheap X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:25:44 -0000 Please pardon this semi-commercial moment from an involved party, but for some reason Amazon's discounted the RELAX NG book by 60%, dropping it to US$11.98. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596004214 For a recently-published 500-page computer book, this is shockingly cheap. (It's normally $29.95.) Of course, you can also get the text for free (under the GFDL) at: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ but paper has its virtues. We now return to our usual programming. Simon St.Laurent http://simonstl.com From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Feb 25 00:38:17 2004 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1OHcG9c072683 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:38:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5500E24CC80; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:37:43 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040224173622.026b11d0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:37:24 +0000 To: "Simon St.Laurent" , relaxng-user From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG book, very cheap In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:38:17 -0000 At 17:25 24/02/2004, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >Please pardon this semi-commercial moment from an involved party, but >for some reason Amazon's discounted the RELAX NG book by 60%, dropping >it to US$11.98. Oh bu gger. It was good value at its original price Simon. No Eric, O'Reilly paper isn't that bad that I need two copies :-) regards DaveP From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Wed Feb 25 18:46:22 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PBkLA4037512 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:46:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PBkI5E020763 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:46:18 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:46:18 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2470@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:46:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:46:22 -0000 I have a definition of a bunch of inlines. etc. I want to exclude recursion, say in the em element Seemed about right, but jing tells me inlines.rng:120: error: found "except" element but expected empty content Is it necessary to list out all the elements, making the definition redundant? Since its mixed content, I'm unsure if this is possible anyway, from the Inline.group definition. Any suggestions please? TIA, DaveP Regards DaveP. **** snip here ***** - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From mamiano@nc.rr.com Wed Feb 25 20:49:40 2004 Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.101]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PDnd8c053613 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:49:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from nc.rr.com (rdu26-47-081.nc.rr.com [66.26.47.81]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i1PDnbkF023323 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:49:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:49:32 -0500 From: Mitch Amiano User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031008 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <200402250500.i1P5025I079200@thaiopensource.com> In-Reply-To: <200402250500.i1P5025I079200@thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: mamiano@nc.rr.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:49:40 -0000 I personally don't mind the message considering the subject and source. The Amazon review sort of ignores the quality of the book and criticizes RelaxNG more or less for being an OS/2 in a world of Windows. I wonder: is there any source that can even hint at the rate at which RelaxNG is actually being adopted? - Mitch Simon St.Laurent wrote: > Please pardon this semi-commercial moment from an involved party, but > for some reason Amazon's discounted the RELAX NG book by 60%, dropping > it to US$11.98. > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596004214 > > For a recently-published 500-page computer book, this is shockingly > cheap. (It's normally $29.95.) Of course, you can also get the text for > free (under the GFDL) at: > > http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ > > but paper has its virtues. > > We now return to our usual programming. > > Simon St.Laurent > http://simonstl.com > From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Feb 25 21:23:18 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PENDJ1058054 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:23:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PELiki086221 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:21:44 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i1PELiEn086220 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:21:44 +0400 (AMT) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:21:44 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200402251421.i1PELiEn086220@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap In-Reply-To: <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:23:18 -0000 > RelaxNG more or less for being an OS/2 in a world of Windows. It is more like Unix in the world of VMS. Small, elegant and capable. David Tolpin From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Feb 25 21:55:43 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PEtg4J062376 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:55:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j087085.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.87.85]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFB66106; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:55:40 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:51:54 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: mamiano@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap In-Reply-To: <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> References: <200402250500.i1P5025I079200@thaiopensource.com> <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> Message-Id: <20040225233530.6A87.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.07.04 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:55:43 -0000 On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:49:32 -0500 Mitch Amiano wrote: > I wonder: is there any >source that can even hint at the rate at which RelaxNG is actually >being adopted? XHTML 2.0 (W3C Draft) and RDF (W3C recommendation) uses RELAX NG and does not use W3C XML Schema (at least now). SVG 1.2 uses RELAX NG as well as W3C XML Schema. TEI, DocBook, and UBL use RELAX NG as well as W3C XML Schema. The OASIS Open Office XML Format also uses RELAX NG as well as W3C XML Schema. And this list is not exhaustive. Please add more. > RNG fans In Japan, there are very many users of RELAX NG. I went to Java Technology Conference in Tokyo last week. To our surprise, the BOF for RELAX NG (by Kohsuke Kawaguchi and Tomoharu Asami) was completely full, and 40% of the attendees were users of RELAX NG. I admit that the number of RELAX NG users is significantly fewer than that of W3C XML Schema users. However, as far as I know, users of RELAX NG are very happy and strongly committed to it. I thus do not think that RELAX NG will disappear, although it might not overshadow W3C XML Schema in the near future. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From robin.berjon@expway.fr Wed Feb 25 22:04:28 2004 Received: from mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PF4R8i063648 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:04:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from expway.fr (APastourelles-107-2-3-133.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.133]) by mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 66AB610000EF; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:04:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <403CB975.1070002@expway.fr> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:04:21 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap References: <200402250500.i1P5025I079200@thaiopensource.com> <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> <20040225233530.6A87.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> In-Reply-To: <20040225233530.6A87.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, mamiano@nc.rr.com X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:04:29 -0000 MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: > On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:49:32 -0500 > Mitch Amiano wrote: >>I wonder: is there any >>source that can even hint at the rate at which RelaxNG is actually >>being adopted? > > SVG 1.2 uses RELAX NG as well as W3C XML Schema. Both are intended to be normative, but the authoring format is RNG (converted to WXS). The RNG schema is recommended because it is more stringent than the WXS one, and thus guarantees better validation. It's far from finished but it's getting there. > I admit that the number of RELAX NG users is significantly fewer than > that of W3C XML Schema users. However, as far as I know, users of > RELAX NG are very happy and strongly committed to it. I thus do not > think that RELAX NG will disappear, although it might not overshadow > W3C XML Schema in the near future. It also depends on usage types. I think that a lot of people that hand author schemata are switching or have switched to RNG. People that generate WXS through class-to-schema bindings and graphical tools probably use WXS more because it's what the tool outputs, even if in fact they probably don't care that much. The fact that it's impossible even today to find two interoperable implementations of WXS is usually a good selling point for RNG. -- Robin Berjon From jfuller@wernervas.com Wed Feb 25 22:21:11 2004 Received: from wvas-marshal.Wernervas.com (mail.wernervas.com [65.247.121.27]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PFL91x066055 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:21:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from wvas-exchange.Wernervas.com (Not Verified[172.30.102.20]) by wvas-marshal.Wernervas.com with NetIQ MailMarshal (v5.5.5.6) id ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:26:12 -0600 Received: from [172.23.210.215] ([172.23.210.215]) by wvas-exchange.Wernervas.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:20:59 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <403CB975.1070002@expway.fr> References: <200402250500.i1P5025I079200@thaiopensource.com> <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> <20040225233530.6A87.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <403CB975.1070002@expway.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <193C7576-67A6-11D8-BC51-000393B3C0BA@wernervas.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Fuller Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:20:09 -0600 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2004 15:20:59.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[F8AB9250:01C3FBB2] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:21:16 -0000 As much as I admire the elegance of RELAX NG, to implement web services, it's pretty hard to get around using at least the XML Schema Part 2 Datatypes. From SOAP attributes themselves to the informative schemata people provide in their web service specifications, it seems like at least those types are pretty widespread... I 've found myself for the sake of expedience using xsd a lot more than I wanted... Of course, I know there's a mapping, and mapping tools, and no need to use the schema language, but there seem to be a lot of xml schema tools particularly related to wsdl and code generation. On Feb 25, 2004, at 9:04 AM, Robin Berjon wrote: > MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:49:32 -0500 >> Mitch Amiano wrote: >>> I wonder: is there any >>> source that can even hint at the rate at which RelaxNG is actually >>> being adopted? >> SVG 1.2 uses RELAX NG as well as W3C XML Schema. > > Both are intended to be normative, but the authoring format is RNG > (converted to WXS). The RNG schema is recommended because it is more > stringent than the WXS one, and thus guarantees better validation. > > It's far from finished but it's getting there. > >> I admit that the number of RELAX NG users is significantly fewer than >> that of W3C XML Schema users. However, as far as I know, users of >> RELAX NG are very happy and strongly committed to it. I thus do not >> think that RELAX NG will disappear, although it might not overshadow >> W3C XML Schema in the near future. > > It also depends on usage types. I think that a lot of people that hand > author schemata are switching or have switched to RNG. People that > generate WXS through class-to-schema bindings and graphical tools > probably use WXS more because it's what the tool outputs, even if in > fact they probably don't care that much. > > The fact that it's impossible even today to find two interoperable > implementations of WXS is usually a good selling point for RNG. > > -- > Robin Berjon > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > From robin.berjon@expway.fr Wed Feb 25 22:27:43 2004 Received: from mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PFRgHC066923 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:27:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from expway.fr (APastourelles-107-2-3-133.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.133]) by mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D46B510000F5; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:27:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <403CBEE8.5050102@expway.fr> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:27:36 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Fuller Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap References: <200402250500.i1P5025I079200@thaiopensource.com> <403CA7EC.3050800@nc.rr.com> <20040225233530.6A87.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <403CB975.1070002@expway.fr> <193C7576-67A6-11D8-BC51-000393B3C0BA@wernervas.com> In-Reply-To: <193C7576-67A6-11D8-BC51-000393B3C0BA@wernervas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:27:43 -0000 John Fuller wrote: > As much as I admire the elegance of RELAX NG, to implement web services, > it's pretty hard to get around using at least the XML Schema Part 2 > Datatypes. From SOAP attributes themselves to the informative schemata > people provide in their web service specifications, it seems like at > least those types are pretty widespread... > I 've found myself for the sake of expedience using xsd a lot more than > I wanted... > > Of course, I know there's a mapping, and mapping tools, > and no need to use the schema language, but there seem to be a lot of > xml schema tools > particularly related to wsdl and code generation. Yes, that's part of what I was covering (a bit hastily). I know some people hand author WSDL (I know I do) but a lot seem to autogenerate it somehow. Note that WXS Part 2 can be (and is being) used from within RNG schemata. The company I work for (Expway) does amongst other things schema-based "binary xml" stuff, and uses WXS part 2 types heavily. Using them together with RNG's ability at defining structures seems to us to be a powerful mix and we've been working on it. -- Robin Berjon From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Feb 25 22:29:00 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PFSulD067099 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:28:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PFRSki086544 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:27:28 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i1PFRSHk086543 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:27:28 +0400 (AMT) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:27:28 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200402251527.i1PFRSHk086543@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap In-Reply-To: <193C7576-67A6-11D8-BC51-000393B3C0BA@wernervas.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:29:00 -0000 > As much as I admire the elegance of RELAX NG, to implement web > services, it's pretty hard to get around using at least the XML Schema > Part 2 Datatypes. From SOAP attributes themselves to the informative > schemata people provide in their web service specifications, it seems > like at least those types are pretty widespread... > I 've found myself for the sake of expedience using xsd a lot more than > I wanted... Relax NG allows to use external datatype library. Besides, XML Schema Datatypes are those supported by most Relax NG implementations. Whether it is a good or a bad thing is a separate question. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From simonstl@simonstl.com Wed Feb 25 22:51:36 2004 Received: from serrano.hesketh.net (mail.hesketh.net [216.27.21.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PFpag0070796 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:51:36 +0700 (ICT) X-Received-From: simonstl@simonstl.com X-Delivered-To: X-Originating-IP: [24.58.125.32] Received: from 192.168.124.11 (syr-24-58-125-32.twcny.rr.com [24.58.125.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by serrano.hesketh.net (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PFpO5M002769 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:51:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:51:28 -0500 From: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: RELAX NG book, very cheap To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <200402251421.i1PELiEn086220@adat.davidashen.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 2.0.2 (Blindsider) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:51:37 -0000 dvd@davidashen.net (David Tolpin) writes: >> RelaxNG more or less for being an OS/2 in a world of Windows. > >It is more like Unix in the world of VMS. Small, elegant and capable. Given O'Reilly's prior history with Unix books, I certainly hope so. >From what I've found giving presentations and talking to people, there's very little interest in schemas per se - partly because people who have tried WXS found it to be a barbed-wire maze, and partly because most people aren't actually interested in creating their own vocabularies, at least not in any formal way. (Even in Web Services, I've seen a fair number of WSDL files which use xs:any for their content!) I gave this talk on RELAX NG to Cornell librarians: http://simonstl.com/articles/sanity2/ I had about 35 people show up. Of those, only about seven were actually creating vocabularies. (In Albany, I had seven people show up, two of whom were creating vocabularies.) Schemas generally seems to be a small market, judging by book sales, and RELAX NG is a small part of that market. My expectation is that RELAX NG will prove more useful and thrive over time, but so far the only people I tend to see using RELAX NG are people who actually care about XML enough to seek out information - a relatively small proportion of the XML-using public. I'm hoping Eric's book helps get the word out, but there's a definite chicken-and-egg problem. The book will help raise awareness of RELAX NG, but only if there's enough interest to propel it through bookstores. We'll see! Simon St.Laurent http://simonstl.com/ http://monasticxml.org/ From peshkov@renderx.com Wed Feb 25 23:40:50 2004 Received: from smtp.atom.ru (smtp.atom.ru [194.67.191.99]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PGenAq079371 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:40:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from peshkov.apple.atom.ru (atomyabl3.rmt.ru [213.252.105.126]) by smtp.atom.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i1PGebg46527; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:40:38 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from peshkov@renderx.com) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:42:03 +0300 From: Alex Peshkov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Organization: RenderX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <592830920.20040225194203@renderx.com> To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. In-reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2470@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2470@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alex Peshkov List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:40:51 -0000 Hello, David. You just can't do it this way in RelaxNG. is an empty element (you can see appropriate message issued by jing). The only possible solution I can think of is to redefine content of the definition using a trick with inclusion of separate grammar: inlines.rng: ... ... driver.rng: ... ... ... Hope this helps. Best regards, Alexander Peshkov mailto:peshkov@renderx.com RenderX DProu> I have a definition of a bunch of inlines. DProu> I want to exclude recursion, say in the em element DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> DProu> Seemed about right, but jing tells me DProu> inlines.rng:120: error: found "except" element but expected empty content DProu> Is it necessary to list out all the elements, DProu> making the definition redundant? DProu> Since its mixed content, I'm unsure if this is possible anyway, DProu> from the Inline.group definition. DProu> Any suggestions please? DProu> TIA, DaveP DProu> Regards DaveP. DProu> **** snip here ***** DProu> - DProu> DISCLAIMER: DProu> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is DProu> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended DProu> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the DProu> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the DProu> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it DProu> and any attachments from your system. DProu> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by DProu> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it DProu> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. DProu> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. DProu> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and DProu> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent DProu> those of RNIB. DProu> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 DProu> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk DProu> _______________________________________________ DProu> relaxng-user mailing list DProu> relaxng-user@relaxng.org DProu> http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user Best regards, Alexander Peshkov mailto:peshkov@renderx.com RenderX From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Wed Feb 25 23:57:54 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PGvrh8082155 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:57:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1PGvl5E004548; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:57:47 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:57:47 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: peshkov@renderx.com, David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:57:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:57:54 -0000 You just can't do it this way in RelaxNG. is an empty element (you can see appropriate message issued by jing). Yes, it did seem like a logical pattern though. Use that definition, with this exception! The only possible solution I can think of is to redefine content of the definition using a trick with inclusion of separate grammar: I'll study that Alex.... thanks. Regards DaveP *** snip here *** - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Feb 26 00:34:41 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PHYfYD087905 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:34:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08585; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:27:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:27:05 -0500 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. Message-ID: <20040225172705.GC6910@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:34:42 -0000 David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk scripsit: > Yes, it did seem like a logical pattern though. > Use that definition, with this exception! Indeed. The fact that the except element can only be used within the data element and as part of constructing names is one of the few arbitrary limits that RNG imposes. -- Income tax, if I may be pardoned for saying so, John Cowan is a tax on income. --Lord Macnaghten (1901) jcowan@reutershealth.com From peshkov@renderx.com Thu Feb 26 01:47:31 2004 Received: from smtp.atom.ru (smtp.atom.ru [194.67.191.99]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PIlTQL099587 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:47:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: from peshkov.apple.atom.ru (atomyabl3.rmt.ru [213.252.105.126]) by smtp.atom.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i1PIlQg94412; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:47:26 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from peshkov@renderx.com) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:48:50 +0300 From: Alex Peshkov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Organization: RenderX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9410438339.20040225214850@renderx.com> To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re[2]: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. In-reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------C61AF1E7115CD88C" Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alex Peshkov List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:47:33 -0000 ------------C61AF1E7115CD88C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, David. DProu> You just can't do it this way in RelaxNG. is an DProu> empty element (you can see appropriate message issued by DProu> jing). DProu> Yes, it did seem like a logical pattern though. DProu> Use that definition, with this exception! Well, I found it quite appealing too. However it may be not so straightforward from the point of view of the theory in the base of RelaxNG or have some implementation reasoning behind it, so we better wait for one of the gurus to comment on this :-) DProu> The only possible solution I can think of is to DProu> redefine content of the definition using a trick with DProu> inclusion of separate grammar: DProu> I'll study that Alex.... thanks. After thinking about it once more I decided that this trick should be used in a different way. Please find a simple example attached (I'm using a compact syntax since it's a way faster to write/read). In this sample I suppose that all elements are not empty and can't have descendants of the same type. I believe it is close to your original goal. DProu> Regards DaveP Best regards, Alexander Peshkov mailto:peshkov@renderx.com RenderX ------------C61AF1E7115CD88C Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="inlines.rnc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="inlines.rnc" SW5saW5lLmdyb3VwID0gdGV4dCB8IEVtIHwgU3Ryb25nIHwgRGZuDQpFbSA9IGVsZW1lbnQgZW0g eyBlbS5jb250ZW50IH0NClN0cm9uZyA9IGVsZW1lbnQgc3Ryb25nIHsgc3Ryb25nLmNvbnRlbnQg fQ0KRGZuID0gZWxlbWVudCBkZm4geyBkZm4uY29udGVudCB9DQoNCmVtLmNvbnRlbnQgPSBJbmxp bmUuZ3JvdXArDQpzdHJvbmcuY29udGVudCA9IElubGluZS5ncm91cCsNCmRmbi5jb250ZW50ID0g SW5saW5lLmdyb3VwKw== ------------C61AF1E7115CD88C Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="para.rnc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="para.rnc" IyBFbXB0eSBlbGVtZW50cyBhcmUgbm90IGFsbG93ZWQNCiMgRWxlbWVudHMgY2FuJ3QgaGF2ZSBk ZXNjZW5kYW50cyBvZiB0aGUgc2FtZSB0eXBlDQpzdGFydCA9IHBhcmENCnBhcmEgPSBlbGVtZW50 IHBhcmEgeyBJbmxpbmUuZ3JvdXArIH0NCg0KaW5jbHVkZSAiaW5saW5lcy5ybmMiIHsNCiAgZW0u Y29udGVudCA9IGdyYW1tYXIgew0KICAgIHN0YXJ0ID0gSW5saW5lLmdyb3VwKw0KICAgIGluY2x1 ZGUgImlubGluZXMucm5jIiB7DQogICAgICBFbSA9IG5vdEFsbG93ZWQNCiAgICB9DQogIH0NCg0K ICBzdHJvbmcuY29udGVudCA9IGdyYW1tYXIgew0KICAgIHN0YXJ0ID0gSW5saW5lLmdyb3VwKw0K ICAgIGluY2x1ZGUgImlubGluZXMucm5jIiB7DQogICAgICBTdHJvbmcgPSBub3RBbGxvd2VkDQog ICAgfQ0KICB9DQoNCiAgZGZuLmNvbnRlbnQgPSBncmFtbWFyIHsNCiAgICBzdGFydCA9IElubGlu ZS5ncm91cCsNCiAgICBpbmNsdWRlICJpbmxpbmVzLnJuYyIgew0KICAgICAgRGZuID0gbm90QWxs b3dlZA0KICAgIH0NCiAgfQ0KfQ0KDQoNCg== ------------C61AF1E7115CD88C Content-Type: application/xml; name="test.xml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test.xml" PD94bWwgdmVyc2lvbj0iMS4wIj8+DQo8cGFyYT4NCiAgcXdlcnR5DQogIDxlbT4NCiAgICA8c3Ry b25nPg0KICAgICAgPGRmbj4NCiAgICAgICAgPCEtLSBUaGlzIDxlbT4gZWxlbWVudCB3aWxsIGJl IHJlamVjdGVkIC0tPg0KICAgICAgICA8ZW0+dWlvcDwvZW0+DQogICAgICAgIGFzZGYNCiAgICAg IDwvZGZuPg0KICAgICAgZ2hqa2wNCiAgICAgIDxkZm4+DQogICAgICAgIHp4Y3YNCiAgICAgIDwv ZGZuPg0KICAgIDwvc3Ryb25nPg0KICA8L2VtPg0KPC9wYXJhPg== ------------C61AF1E7115CD88C-- From darolst@pantor.com Thu Feb 26 02:46:31 2004 Received: from mail.gbg.bostream.net (mail.gbg.bostream.net [81.26.226.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PJkUee008504 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 02:46:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.gbg.bostream.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1PJcYKS017290 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:38:34 +0100 Message-ID: <403CFB92.80609@pantor.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:46:26 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <9410438339.20040225214850@renderx.com> In-Reply-To: <9410438339.20040225214850@renderx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:46:31 -0000 Actually, the topic has been discussed by the RELAX NG TC starting at the following post: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200310/msg00004.html and ending here http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200401/msg00000.html Cheers, David Alex Peshkov wrote: >Well, I found it quite appealing too. However it may be not so >straightforward from the point of view of the theory in the base >of RelaxNG or have some implementation reasoning behind it, so we >better wait for one of the gurus to comment on this :-) > > > From peshkov@renderx.com Thu Feb 26 03:12:27 2004 Received: from smtp.atom.ru (smtp.atom.ru [194.67.191.99]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PKCPIW012540 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:12:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from peshkov.apple.atom.ru (atomyabl3.rmt.ru [213.252.105.126]) by smtp.atom.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i1PKCOg24288 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:12:24 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from peshkov@renderx.com) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:13:49 +0300 From: Alex Peshkov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Organization: RenderX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8915537501.20040225231349@renderx.com> To: David Rosenborg Subject: Re[2]: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. In-reply-To: <403CFB92.80609@pantor.com> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <9410438339.20040225214850@renderx.com> <403CFB92.80609@pantor.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alex Peshkov List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:12:28 -0000 Hello, David. Thanks for the useful pointer! However I would say that discussion is not 'ended' but rather 'stopped'. It looks like there are quite a few usecases for extended inclusion/exclusion mechanism and I'm still curious to hear whatever it will be added to RelaxNG and when. Best regards, Alexander Peshkov mailto:peshkov@renderx.com RenderX DR> Actually, the topic has been discussed by the RELAX NG TC starting at DR> the following post: DR> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200310/msg00004.html DR> and ending here DR> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200401/msg00000.html DR> Cheers, DR> David DR> Alex Peshkov wrote: >>Well, I found it quite appealing too. However it may be not so >>straightforward from the point of view of the theory in the base >>of RelaxNG or have some implementation reasoning behind it, so we >>better wait for one of the gurus to comment on this :-) >> >> >> From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Feb 26 03:19:44 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i1PKJhK4013684 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:19:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462E725D4F7 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:19:38 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040225201600.026ac7c8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:19:23 +0000 To: From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re[2]: [relaxng-user] recursion with an except. In-Reply-To: <8915537501.20040225231349@renderx.com> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2474@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <9410438339.20040225214850@renderx.com> <403CFB92.80609@pantor.com> <8915537501.20040225231349@renderx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:19:44 -0000 At 20:13 25/02/2004, Alex Peshkov wrote: >Hello, David. > >Thanks for the useful pointer! However I would say that discussion is >not 'ended' but rather 'stopped'. It looks like there are quite a few >usecases for extended inclusion/exclusion mechanism and I'm still >curious to hear whatever it will be added to RelaxNG and when. My 'bigger' need is for html classic mixed content for the inlines list of entities brought up to date.

pcdata But but no nested <em>, and all the other inlines,

relax ng seems (AFAIK) to miss this, having the shortform 'mixed' seemingly only for a single element, which is just tempting enough to frustrate me? Tell us.. me why please James? Or add my two penneth to the plea to extend. regards DaveP From cwillaert@insite.coop Fri Mar 5 05:24:28 2004 Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix@postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24MORl9060448 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:24:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from xp (bleuets-3-81-56-122-113.fbx.proxad.net [81.56.122.113]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 1684EC41B9 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:24:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006201c40238$5ad773f0$717a3851@xp> From: "Christophe Willaert" To: References: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:30:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:24:30 -0000 Hello, I'm new to Relax NG. I would like to know if there exist a Relax NG validator in PHP. Thanks a lot, Christophe From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Mar 5 05:46:06 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24Mk5iL063404 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:46:06 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E60CBB61 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:45:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <006201c40238$5ad773f0$717a3851@xp> References: <006201c40238$5ad773f0$717a3851@xp> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:46:04 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:46:07 -0000 On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 23:30, Christophe Willaert wrote: > Hello, > > I'm new to Relax NG. > I would like to know if there exist a Relax NG validator in PHP. I have never heard of an implementation written in PHP, but now that PHP uses libxml though its "DOM XML" module and that libxml supports RELAX NG, it should be possible to require a RELAX NG validation at parse time. However, that doesn't seem to be covered in the current documentation [1] and I wonder if this feature is exposed in the PHP bindings. Eric [1] http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.domxml.php -- Weblog: http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog?t=category&a=English Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 05:51:12 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24Mp8QR064165 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:51:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i24Mlqki059761; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:47:52 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i24MlqvZ059760; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:47:52 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:47:52 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403042247.i24MlqvZ059760@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, vdv@dyomedea.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:51:14 -0000 > > I'm new to Relax NG. > > I would like to know if there exist a Relax NG validator in PHP. > > I have never heard of an implementation written in PHP, but now that PHP > uses libxml though its "DOM XML" module and that libxml supports RELAX > NG, it should be possible to require a RELAX NG validation at parse > time. Please do not take me wrong, libxml does not support Relax NG. The support has many bugs, it cannot be even used to validate against relaxng.rng or xslt.rng. Better use something else. David Tolpin From veillard@redhat.com Fri Mar 5 06:11:04 2004 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24NB3V0067013 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:11:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i24NAUb23239; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:10:30 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i24NAT825226; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:10:29 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i24NANeF028790; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:10:23 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i24NAMuU028788; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:10:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:10:22 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? Message-ID: <20040304231022.GE29634@redhat.com> References: <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> <200403042247.i24MlqvZ059760@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403042247.i24MlqvZ059760@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:11:04 -0000 On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:47:52AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > > > I'm new to Relax NG. > > > I would like to know if there exist a Relax NG validator in PHP. > > > > I have never heard of an implementation written in PHP, but now that PHP > > uses libxml though its "DOM XML" module and that libxml supports RELAX > > NG, it should be possible to require a RELAX NG validation at parse > > time. > > Please do not take me wrong, libxml does not support Relax NG. > The support has many bugs, it cannot be even used to validate > against relaxng.rng or xslt.rng. Your behaviour is not acceptable. There are bugs, they are logged, I don't see yours. Still libxml2 pass James Clark tests, and he considered the implementation good enough: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200303/msg00013.html Can you stop pissing in other people soup, that would prove some basic decency in social behaviour. On a technical ground, I may have considered integrating RNV within libxml2 to replace the existing validation code, but the idea of having to deal with you doesn't sounds great I'm afraid. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From veillard@redhat.com Fri Mar 5 06:34:59 2004 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24NYxbU070235 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:34:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i24NYnb31474; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:34:49 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i24NYn800673; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:34:49 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i24NYgeF007146; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:34:42 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i24NYgeg007144; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:34:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:34:41 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? Message-ID: <20040304233440.GF29634@redhat.com> References: <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> <200403042247.i24MlqvZ059760@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403042247.i24MlqvZ059760@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:35:00 -0000 On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:47:52AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > Please do not take me wrong, libxml does not support Relax NG. "Please do not take me wrong" in what sense ? W.r.t. your behaviour ? I think anybody will make its own opinion about it. You managed to piss me off and make me leave the XSL-List and then the DocBook list, does that mean I also need to get off the Relax-NG list just because you can't behave politely or just in a decent fashion ? There is no reason for me to have to deal with this, I very much enjoy technical mailing-lists because people are usuall well-manered and discuss important topic, I'm one of the people who asked James to create this list because I hoped it would serve Relax-NG propagation and reach new audience. Just tell me you expect to continue your rant and I will leave this place too, I prefer to leave in a decent way than to have to handle your diatribe and venom, that's sad but life is too short and fighting with you doesn't seems to be a good use of this list readers time ! > The support has many bugs, it cannot be even used to validate > against relaxng.rng or xslt.rng. Of course libxml2 regression tests includes 82 RelaxNG schemas [1] which are all validated against the Relax-NG schemas provided in Annex A of the specification, and those include DocBook examples and the Relax-NG specification in XML. I didn't tried xslt.rng (which one), and I can't see any bug report from you about it either. Libxml2 Relax-NG has also been used to validate agaisnt TEI schemas which were relatively complex, but they could not be integrated in the test suite due to licencing incompatibilities. Daniel [1] in addition to the test suite and examples that James provided when I asked for some data to test my implementation. -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 06:37:38 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24NbY2m070605 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:37:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i24NYhki060326 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:34:43 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i24NYhn0060325 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:34:43 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:34:43 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403042334.i24NYhn0060325@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <20040304231022.GE29634@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:37:38 -0000 > > Please do not take me wrong, libxml does not support Relax NG. > > The support has many bugs, it cannot be even used to validate > > against relaxng.rng or xslt.rng. > > Your behaviour is not acceptable. There are bugs, they are logged, > I don't see yours. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130216 Reported more than two months ago, after being discussed on xml-list. Still 'NEW'. > Still libxml2 pass James Clark tests, James Clark's own validator passes more than his own tests. It can be used to validate against Clark's grammars. > and he considered the implementation good enough: > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200303/msg00013.html He is a polite man. > On a technical ground, I may have considered integrating RNV within > libxml2 to replace the existing validation code, but the idea of having > to deal with you doesn't sounds great I'm afraid. This is not relevant. If you need RNV, the license terms allow you to use it. From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 06:55:30 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i24NtRp2072962 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:55:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i24Nqaki073458 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:52:36 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i24NqaUl073457 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:52:36 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:52:36 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403042352.i24NqaUl073457@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <20040304233440.GF29634@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:55:31 -0000 > I didn't tried xslt.rng (which one), and I can't see any bug http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/xslt.rng %xmllint --version xmllint: using libxml version 20607 compiled with: DTDValid FTP HTTP HTML C14N Catalog XPath XPointer XInclude Unicode Regexps Automata Schemas %xmllint --noout --relaxng xslt.rng ~/work/docbook/xsl/html/docbook.xsl /home/dvd/work/docbook/xsl/html/docbook.xsl:113: element param: Relax-NG validity error : Element template has extra content: param /home/dvd/work/docbook/xsl/html/docbook.xsl:9: element output: Relax-NG validity error : Element stylesheet has extra content: output /home/dvd/work/docbook/xsl/html/docbook.xsl fails to validate % %java -classpath ~/work/jing-20030619/bin/jing.jar:$CLASSPATH com.thaiopensource.relaxng.util.Driver xslt.rng ~/work/docbook/xsl/html/docbook.xsl % From veillard@redhat.com Fri Mar 5 07:37:52 2004 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i250bq6f078449 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:37:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i250bpb19708; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:37:51 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i250bp819880; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:37:51 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i250bieF002777; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:37:44 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i250biWc002775; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:37:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:37:44 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? Message-ID: <20040305003740.GH29634@redhat.com> References: <20040304231022.GE29634@redhat.com> <200403042334.i24NYhn0060325@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403042334.i24NYhn0060325@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:37:52 -0000 On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:34:43AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > > > Please do not take me wrong, libxml does not support Relax NG. > > > The support has many bugs, it cannot be even used to validate > > > against relaxng.rng or xslt.rng. > > > > Your behaviour is not acceptable. There are bugs, they are logged, > > I don't see yours. > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130216 > > Reported more than two months ago, after being discussed on xml-list. That doesn't mean I don't recognize them as bugs, just that I didn't had time to go over them. There is apparently 2 logged problems: - one about "wildcarding" which is what you seems to have hit - one about interleave on top of interleave which is more due to a validation algorithm problem (which I know from the start, I wanted to experiemtn with a non-derivative algorithm). > Still 'NEW'. Which doesn't mean I don't want to fix it. It's recorded, it's public, but it's not trivial and I had other stuff to do. > > and he considered the implementation good enough: > > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200303/msg00013.html > > He is a polite man. So you're asserting his mail was sent only on the basis of politeness, interesting ... > > On a technical ground, I may have considered integrating RNV within > > libxml2 to replace the existing validation code, but the idea of having > > to deal with you doesn't sounds great I'm afraid. > > This is not relevant. If you need RNV, the license terms allow you > to use it. No, this is extremely relevant, as a maintainer, especially for a library and not a standalone program, I really need to build trust and have good interaction with the people I need to work with, and so far you give me no incentive to rely on you for an important part of the library. The technical aspect is only one part of a maintainer job, I'm not perfect by any means either but seing the way you bash my code in public doesn't suggest it's easy to deal with you. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 11:29:08 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i254T415012024 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:29:06 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i254QBki074625 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:26:11 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i254QBhA074624 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:26:11 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:26:11 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403050426.i254QBhA074624@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <20040305003740.GH29634@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:29:08 -0000 > > > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200303/msg00013.html > > > > He is a polite man. > > So you're asserting his mail was sent only on the basis of politeness, > interesting ... No, I am not asserting it. > > > On a technical ground, I may have considered integrating RNV within > > > libxml2 to replace the existing validation code, but the idea of having > > > to deal with you doesn't sounds great I'm afraid. > > > > This is not relevant. If you need RNV, the license terms allow you > > to use it. > > No, this is extremely relevant, as a maintainer, especially for a library > and not a standalone program, I really need to build trust and have good > interaction with the people I need to work with, and so far you give me > no incentive to rely on you for an important part of the library. The > technical aspect is only one part of a maintainer job, I'm not perfect > by any means either but seing the way you bash my code in public doesn't > suggest it's easy to deal with you. I am 'bashing' the code not because i is yours, but because it does not work. Is there a single XML standard libxml2 supports? It does not support even XML 1.0. Besides, I don't think anyone would benefit from integrating RNV with libxml2. Certainly, not users of RNV. libxml2 is already the size of an operating system. Literally: cpu% wc -l `{du -a lib*|grep '\.[ch]$'|awk '{print $2;}'}|tail -1 118578 total All sources of all libraries of Plan 9 are 118578 lines. %find libxml2-2.6.7 -name '*.[ch]' | xargs wc -l|tail -1 174681 total Source of libxml2 is 174681 lines. 50% longer than an operating system's library, actually. Things are interrelated and fixing one part causes another too fail; way too often. RNV is a small program that does its single job of validation against Relax NG acceptably; who would benefit from fitting it into another distribution? David From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Mar 5 14:58:41 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i257wcNC038452 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:58:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3978EB738 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:58:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> References: <006201c40238$5ad773f0$717a3851@xp> <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1078473517.14422.48.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:58:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 07:58:42 -0000 Can we go back to the original question? I am hardly a PHP user myself, but PHP is used by an incredible number of web developers and that would be a very good thing for RELAX NG to be easy to use in PHP. * Is it planed (or already possible) to use libxml RELAX NG support in PHP? * And/or is there any plan for RNV bindings in PHP? Eric (sorry to have triggered that war) -- Tired to type XML tags? http://wikiml.org Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 16:21:51 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i259LeUU047853 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:21:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i259Ijki075340 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:18:45 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i259IjwQ075339 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:18:45 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:18:45 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403050918.i259IjwQ075339@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <1078473517.14422.48.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:21:51 -0000 > I am hardly a PHP user myself, but PHP is used by an incredible number > of web developers and that would be a very good thing for RELAX NG to be > easy to use in PHP. > > * Is it planed (or already possible) to use libxml RELAX NG > support in PHP? It should be possible to use it. libxml2 provides bindings for PHP, PHP has configuration option to use libxml2. However, http://am.php.net/xml http://am.php.net/xslt the standard PHP extensions, are based on Expat and Sablotron. Ironically enough, 9 of first 10 documents found on 'expat libxml' are about problems. Probably, it just means that it is used by many people. > * And/or is there any plan for RNV bindings in PHP? The distribution provides examples of use of RNV (actually, RVP, the validation engine built without parser, with simple half-dozen commands protocol) with Perl and Python. PHP has proc_open() too, and using RNV with PHP would just mean writing about 100 lines in PHP once. > > Eric (sorry to have triggered that war) > -- No, it was me who triggered it. And I am sorry too. > Tired to type XML tags? > http://wikiml.org I am interested, but is it just the standard wiki syntax, or is it described on the site? I could not find. From veillard@redhat.com Fri Mar 5 16:56:42 2004 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i259ugag051938 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:56:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i259uXb08665; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:56:33 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i259uX826428; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:56:33 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i259uQeF019677; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:56:26 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i259uQ9k019671; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:56:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:56:26 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? Message-ID: <20040305095625.GA18424@redhat.com> References: <006201c40238$5ad773f0$717a3851@xp> <1078440364.14476.30.camel@delleric> <1078473517.14422.48.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1078473517.14422.48.camel@delleric> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: Rob Richards , relaxng-user@relaxng.org, Christian Stocker X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:56:43 -0000 On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:58:37AM +0100, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > I am hardly a PHP user myself, but PHP is used by an incredible number > of web developers and that would be a very good thing for RELAX NG to be > easy to use in PHP. > > * Is it planed (or already possible) to use libxml RELAX NG > support in PHP? I think the best is to ask the PHP developpers who are doing the PHP5/libxml2 integration, I carbon copied them since I doubt they are on the Relax-NG list. However they are in the last beta release cycle before 5.0 so I'm not sure sneaking Relax-NG support at that stage if it is not present will be okay, Rob and Christian can probably clarify this. > Eric (sorry to have triggered that war) You didn't, that's clear ! Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 18:17:57 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i25BHrUs060224 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:17:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i25BHAiq009026 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:17:10 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i25BHAh6009025 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:17:10 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:17:10 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403051117.i25BHAh6009025@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <20040305003740.GH29634@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:17:58 -0000 > > > > The support has many bugs, it cannot be even used to validate > > > > against relaxng.rng or xslt.rng. > > > > > > Your behaviour is not acceptable. There are bugs, they are logged, > > > I don't see yours. > > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130216 > > > > Reported more than two months ago, after being discussed on xml-list. > > That doesn't mean I don't recognize them as bugs, just that I didn't > had time to go over them. There is apparently 2 logged problems: Additionally, libxml2 fails on many NIST XML Schema Datatypes validation tests, in particular datatypes: anyURI, decimal, gMonth, integer (and restricted types), normalizedString, and regular expression matching (pattern facet) do not pass the tests. > - one about "wildcarding" which is what you seems to have hit > - one about interleave on top of interleave which is more due > to a validation algorithm problem (which I know from the start, > I wanted to experiemtn with a non-derivative algorithm). There are at least three other working implementations based on an automaton, of each at least one is conformant. > > Still 'NEW'. > > Which doesn't mean I don't want to fix it. It's recorded, it's public, > but it's not trivial and I had other stuff to do. That's ok, it just means that libxml support for Relax NG is not yet ready for deployment. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Mar 5 18:20:21 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i25BKFio060470 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:20:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i25BJTiq009055 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:19:29 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i25BJTDQ009054 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:19:29 +0400 (AMT) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:19:29 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403051119.i25BJTDQ009054@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] PHP Relax NG validator ? In-Reply-To: <20040305102112.GA12040@daniel.veillard.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:20:21 -0000 > > I am 'bashing' the code not because i is yours, but because it does not > > work. Is there a single XML standard libxml2 supports? It does not support > > even XML 1.0. > > The excellent point is that: > 1/ your opinion is totally irrelevant to most of the industry XML 1.0 conformance violation details are at http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200401/msg00008.html > P.S.: since the libraries you're bashing are such an abomination, you should > really unsubscribe from the xml@gnome.org and xslt@gnome.org lists too I am subscribed to both of the lists as well as too others to be able to monitor the progress. I hope that with time the project will turn to a production quality software. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Mar 6 14:06:21 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2676FdI004953 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:06:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2675Siq071581 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:05:28 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i2675S87071580 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:05:28 +0400 (AMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:05:28 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403060705.i2675S87071580@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Subject: [relaxng-user] Bug in Jing and libxml2 -- restriction on start before simplification X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 07:06:21 -0000 Hi, thanks to Alexander Peshkov for discovering the bug. The following grammar 1 start = element foo { 2 grammar { 3 start = element bar { text }, element doh {text} 4 } 5 } when converted to XML Syntax: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 is not accepted by either Jing or libxml2, with the following reporting xmllint --relaxng test.rng test.xml test.rng:10: element element: Relax-NG parser error : start more than one children Relax-NG schema test.rng failed to compile java com.thaiopensource.relaxng.util.Driver test.rng test.xml /home/dvd/work/test.rng:10:31: error: "start" pattern must contain at most one pattern Both Jing and RNV validate successfully against the grammar in the compact syntax. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Mar 6 14:30:09 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i267U5qi007500 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:30:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i267THiq071633; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:29:17 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i267THZ6071632; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:29:17 +0400 (AMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:29:17 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403060729.i267THZ6071632@adat.davidashen.net> To: dvd@davidashen.net, relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200403060705.i2675S87071580@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 07:30:11 -0000 Hi, after looking at the spec, I admit that both Jing and libxml2 are right reporting the above Relax NG XML Syntax grammar as wrong; the production rules for the XML Syntax require that start element only has one child. So, Trang should have transformed the compact syntax into the XML syntax by wrapping the contents of 'start' element into a group. However, I have a doubt regarding the specification logic. Disallowing implicit grouping in , while it is allowed in other contents, does not seem right to me. Restrictions on the start element are checked after the simplification, thus this syntactic restriction does not actually help anything. Shouldn't the production for start be start ::= pattern+ ? David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Mar 6 14:50:47 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i267okGS009981 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:50:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6786ABB88 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:50:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200403060729.i267THZ6071632@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200403060729.i267THZ6071632@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1078559444.14478.333.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 08:50:44 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 07:50:47 -0000 David, On Sat, 2004-03-06 at 08:29, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > after looking at the spec, I admit that both Jing and libxml2 are right > reporting the above Relax NG XML Syntax grammar as wrong; the production > rules for the XML Syntax require that start element only has one child. > > So, Trang should have transformed the compact syntax into the XML syntax > by wrapping the contents of 'start' element into a group. > > However, I have a doubt regarding the specification logic. Disallowing > implicit grouping in , while it is allowed in other contents, > does not seem right to me. > > Restrictions on the start element are checked after the simplification, > thus this syntactic restriction does not actually help anything. > > Shouldn't the production for start be > > start ::= pattern+ It's done on purpose because The reason why the latter is forbidden is that there's a tendency to use it assuming it means Eric -- Carnet web : http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog?t=category&a=Fran%C3%A7ais Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Mar 6 15:13:04 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i268D0sV012459 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:13:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i268C6iq071947; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 12:12:06 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i268C47M071946; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 12:12:04 +0400 (AMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 12:12:04 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403060812.i268C47M071946@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, vdv@dyomedea.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong In-Reply-To: <1078559444.14478.333.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 08:13:04 -0000 > > It's done on purpose because > > > > The reason why the latter is forbidden is that there's > a tendency to use it assuming it means > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Eric, 1) at the URL below, a patch for trang-20030619 that generates correct patterns for start with implicit grouping. http://ftp.davidashen.net/misc/trang-20030619-sig.patch 2) I tend to disagree with James. Either implicit grouping is not allowed anywhere, or it is consistently allowed; start = foo,bar is perfectly correct and normally used in nested grammars. Nested grammars are very useful in conjunction with parentRef elements. Trying to fix a hypothetic bug James introduced a real one. 3) In cases where start = foo, bar is a bug, does not have a chance to be misused as it were a choice, because this pattern is forbidden in top-level grammars. Cases where start = foo, bar is correct is used in nested grammars; and in most cases nested grammars are used by people who know what they are doing. I think this artificial limitation should be lifted. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Mar 6 15:56:43 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i268uglu017050 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:56:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8652DBB96 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:56:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200403060812.i268C47M071946@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200403060812.i268C47M071946@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1078563401.14419.342.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:56:41 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 08:56:43 -0000 On Sat, 2004-03-06 at 09:12, David Tolpin wrote: > 2) I tend to disagree with James. Either implicit grouping is not > allowed anywhere, or it is consistently allowed; > > start = foo,bar > > is perfectly correct and normally used in nested grammars. Nested > grammars are very useful in conjunction with parentRef elements. > > Trying to fix a hypothetic bug James introduced a real one. I have been surprised by this limitation too and that's why I had asked the question. My "natural" expectation was that the content model of would be coherent with the content model of since these two patterns are really very similar in behaviour. > 3) In cases where > > start = foo, bar > > is a bug, > > > > > > > does not have a chance to be misused as it were a choice, because > this pattern is forbidden in top-level grammars. > > Cases where > > start = foo, bar > > is correct is used in nested grammars; and in most cases nested > grammars are used by people who know what they are doing. > > I think this artificial limitation should be lifted. That would be my feeling too, but it's really difficult to tell what's the least confusing... Misusing and implicit for a would leave to schemas that would be valid but behave in an unexpected manner (for the author who would have made the error) while this restriction raises a schema error which cannot be ignored and that can be considered safer. Eric -- Have you ever thought about unit testing XSLT templates? http://xsltunit.org Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Mar 6 16:04:04 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i26941vi017782 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:04:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2693Aiq072200; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:03:10 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i26938MW072199; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:03:08 +0400 (AMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:03:08 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403060903.i26938MW072199@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, vdv@dyomedea.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong In-Reply-To: <1078563401.14419.342.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:04:04 -0000 > Misusing and implicit for a would leave to schemas > that would be valid but behave in an unexpected manner (for the author > who would have made the error) while this restriction raises a schema > error which cannot be ignored and that can be considered safer. 1) Only in nested grammars. In top-level grammars this will be cut off by restrictions on start pattern immediately. 2) As well as any other implicit grouping. Why do you think is less confusing than the same in ? 3) Group can be taken for choice, not the other way; which means that the pattern fails for a simple context, not for a complex one. Thus this confusion will be easily discovered. Has there been a single real case of this confusion? From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Mar 6 16:25:38 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i269PbZH019648 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:25:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDCCBB88 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:25:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200403060903.i26938MW072199@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200403060903.i26938MW072199@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1078565135.14418.371.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:25:35 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:25:38 -0000 On Sat, 2004-03-06 at 10:03, David Tolpin wrote: > > Misusing and implicit for a would leave to schemas > > that would be valid but behave in an unexpected manner (for the author > > who would have made the error) while this restriction raises a schema > > error which cannot be ignored and that can be considered safer. > > 1) Only in nested grammars. In top-level grammars this will be cut off > by restrictions on start pattern immediately. Sure. > 2) As well as any other implicit grouping. Why do you think > > > > > > > is less confusing than the same in > > ? Because is associated with the concept of root element in top-level grammars and that this may confuse some users. > 3) Group can be taken for choice, not the other way; which means > that the pattern fails for a simple context, not for a complex one. > Thus this confusion will be easily discovered. Less easily than with the current restriction. > Has there been a single real case of this confusion? I don't think so. Note that I am not in favour of this restriction but just trying to understand the motivation. Also, now that RELAX NG is an ISO standard, I don't think that the consequences of this choice are big enough to justify an update. Eric -- If you have a XML document, you have its schema. http://examplotron.org Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Mar 6 16:37:58 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i269bsGD020705 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:37:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i269b2iq072340; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:37:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i269b1Mg072339; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:37:01 +0400 (AMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:37:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403060937.i269b1Mg072339@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, vdv@dyomedea.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong In-Reply-To: <1078565135.14418.371.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:37:58 -0000 > > Also, now that RELAX NG is an ISO standard, I don't think that the > consequences of this choice are big enough to justify an update. > Eric, I am not pushing for an immediate update. This change would not make Relax NG more powerful; and the fix for trang has turned out to be simple. However, if there will be a process of delivering a cleaned-up new version of Relax NG, this case should be considered, I think. I also think it can just as well be included into errata; there are other things (such as a clarification for the groupability of notAllowed) to mention there anyway. This would be a backward-compatible change, it will not break any of the existing stylesheets and make Trang valid without my patch. David From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Sat Mar 6 22:10:10 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i26FA6Lc050398 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:10:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j087085.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.87.85]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277AA6578 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 00:10:05 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:06:16 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong In-Reply-To: <200403060937.i269b1Mg072339@adat.davidashen.net> References: <1078565135.14418.371.camel@delleric> <200403060937.i269b1Mg072339@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20040306235809.EFA5.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.07.04 [ja] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 15:10:10 -0000 On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:37:01 +0400 (AMT) David Tolpin wrote: > > However, if there will be a process of delivering a cleaned-up > new version of Relax NG, this case should be considered, I think. ISO can publish technical corrigenda. However, unless the spec is completely broken, I (and probably the Japanese national member body) will oppose to any changes that affect implementations. I believe that stability of RELAX NG is much more important at this stage of the game, and I do not think the spec is broken here. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Mar 6 22:30:13 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i26FUA8H052445 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:30:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i26FTFiq073307; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:29:15 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i26FTEhR073306; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:29:14 +0400 (AMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:29:14 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403061529.i26FTEhR073306@adat.davidashen.net> To: EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Jing and libxml2 is right, Trang is wrong In-Reply-To: <20040306235809.EFA5.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 15:30:13 -0000 > > > > However, if there will be a process of delivering a cleaned-up > > new version of Relax NG, this case should be considered, I think. > > ISO can publish technical corrigenda. However, unless the spec > is completely broken, I (and probably the Japanese national member > body) will oppose to any changes that affect implementations. I > believe that stability of RELAX NG is much more important at this > stage of the game, and I do not think the spec is broken here. The spec is not broken. You are right. Is the page on Relax NG maintained ? Can the fix to Trang be made publicly available so that Relax NG schema development could proceed with the compact syntax as an authoring notation? The problem with converting compact syntax for group in start to XML syntax is not made up. It is from a real company producing a real Relax NG schema for a W3C approved recommendation. From Michael.Weber@dlr.de Mon Mar 8 23:50:16 2004 Received: from n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com [129.247.16.33]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i28GoFjl060357 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:50:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de (ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de [129.247.217.243]) by n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (8.11.7-20030917/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i28Go9i57496 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:50:09 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:51:25 +0100 Message-ID: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B99@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Java Error while using Sun Multi-Schema Validator Thread-Index: AcQFLWpjoQ27TYYQR0mB09/mE49oXg== From: To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i28GoFjl060357 Subject: [relaxng-user] Java Error while using Sun Multi-Schema Validator X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:50:18 -0000 Dear all, I get the java.lang.AbstractMethodError: com.sun.msv.schematron.reader.PrefixResolverImpl.handlesNullPrefixes()Z at org.apache.xpath.compiler.Lexer.tokenize(Lexer.java:391) at [...] while using the Sun Multi-Schema Validator with J2SDK 1.4.2_03. I guess there is an incompatibility between relames and my Java version. But where? How can I avoid this error. Furthermore, I cannot reproduce the error with a minimal example. TIA Kind regards Michael Weber -- Dr. Michael Weber Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt e.V. Projektträger im DLR Softwaresysteme (PT-SW) Rutherfordstr. 2 D-12489 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 67055-750 Fax: +49 (0)30 67055-8750 mailto:Michael.Weber@dlr.de http://www.dlr.de/PT-DLR/ From smith@xml-doc.org Thu Mar 11 09:18:50 2004 Received: from david.io.com (david.io.com [199.170.88.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2B2In0a042471 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:18:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from zennihon_yopparai_rengo (hagbard.io.com [199.170.88.13]) by david.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id i2B2Igp2006254 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:18:43 -0600 Received: by zennihon_yopparai_rengo (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:18:43 +0900 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:18:43 +0900 From: Michael Smith To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20040311021841.GA1996@zennihon_yopparai_rengo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG Wiki? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:18:50 -0000 Would be great to have a RELAX NG Wiki, especially if it were on the relaxng.org site. From Michael.Weber@dlr.de Thu Mar 11 23:08:27 2004 Received: from n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com [129.247.16.33]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2BG8Qjg045057 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:08:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de (ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de [129.247.217.243]) by n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (8.11.7-20030917/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i2BG8Ki86058 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:08:21 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:08:40 +0100 Message-ID: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas Thread-Index: AcQHgxJ0fCdxhNFoS4m4SkMgWEkHgg== From: To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i2BG8Qjg045057 Subject: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:08:28 -0000 Hello all, is there anybody who runs a (Java based) RELAX NG validator which understands embedded Schematron rules within industrial size examples? The following attempts were to no avail: I did all my attempts on a Linux machine. - Sun Multi-Schema XML Validator Schematron add-on v1.5 with jdk1.3 led to a Java-VM crash. - Sun Multi-Schema XML Validator Schematron add-on v1.5 with j2sdk1.4 led to a Java failure caused by the Xalan version shipped with the Java run time environment which can not be overridden. - Jing v20030619 seems not to recognize Schematron rules. Any suggestions are welcome. TIA Kind regards Michael -- Dr. Michael Weber Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt e.V. Projektträger im DLR Softwaresysteme (PT-SW) Rutherfordstr. 2 D-12489 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 67055-750 Fax: +49 (0)30 67055-8750 mailto:Michael.Weber@dlr.de http://www.dlr.de/PT-DLR/ From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sun Mar 14 13:54:41 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2E6seXf025712 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:54:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4F8274422; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040314065228.026a1628@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:54:13 +0000 To: , From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas In-Reply-To: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.d e> References: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:54:43 -0000 At 16:08 11/03/2004, Michael.Weber@dlr.de wrote: >Hello all, > >is there anybody who runs a (Java based) RELAX NG validator which >understands embedded Schematron rules If I understand it right, its a two step process. 1. Validate the instance against the schema, 2. Pull the schematron rules out of the file and run schematron against those. I.e. its not a single pass. regards DaveP From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Mar 14 18:48:32 2004 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2EBmVvT054989 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:48:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from computing-services.oxford.ac.uk ([81.103.191.36]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040314114752.VQHZ5865.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:47:52 +0000 Message-ID: <4054466C.6010607@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:47:56 -0500 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040122 Debian/1.6-1 X-Accept-Language: us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael.Weber@dlr.de Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas References: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> In-Reply-To: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:48:33 -0000 Michael.Weber@dlr.de wrote: >- Jing v20030619 seems not to recognize Schematron rules. > > > jing has a schematron validator, but only as a separate stage whereby you run foo.sch against bar.xml. So write a wrapper which - runs jing normally - if that succeeds, extracts Schematron rules to temporary schema file - runs jing with that temporary file Sebastian From peshkov@renderx.com Sun Mar 14 23:05:19 2004 Received: from localhost.localdomain (64.124.45.232.renderx.com [64.124.45.232]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2EG5Ipv083343 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:05:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from peshkov.apple.atom.ru (atomyabl3.rmt.ru [213.252.105.126]) (authenticated) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EEd1b07163; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:39:03 -0800 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:06:30 +0300 From: Alex Peshkov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Organization: RenderX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <82937678.20040314190630@renderx.com> To: Michael.Weber@dlr.de Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas In-reply-To: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> References: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9D@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alex Peshkov List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:05:22 -0000 Hello, Michael. MWdd> - Sun Multi-Schema XML Validator Schematron add-on v1.5 with j2sdk1.4 MWdd> led to a Java failure caused by the Xalan version shipped with the MWdd> Java run time environment which can not be overridden. You can suppress use of this buggy Xalan version if you wish. Take a look here: http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/faq.html#faq-N100CC Best regards, Alexander Peshkov mailto:peshkov@renderx.com RenderX From Michael.Weber@dlr.de Tue Mar 16 17:28:59 2004 Received: from n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com [129.247.16.33]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2GASwKe029055 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:28:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de (ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de [129.247.217.243]) by n33.kp.t-systems-sfr.com (8.11.7-20030917/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i2GASqi125876 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:28:52 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:29:15 +0100 Message-ID: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9F@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas Thread-Index: AcQJ3kfX+tocozkYTGmrl4hDS8lCwQBYEEWg From: To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i2GASwKe029055 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:28:59 -0000 Hello, Alex Peshkov wrote: > > MWdd> - Sun Multi-Schema XML Validator Schematron add-on v1.5 with j2sdk1.4 > MWdd> led to a Java failure caused by the Xalan version shipped with the > MWdd> Java run time environment which can not be overridden. > > You can suppress use of this buggy Xalan version if you wish. Take > a look here: http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/faq.html#faq-N100CC Thank you for your kind tip. Some tests later I must state that the Multi-Schema Validator must have itself the AbstractMethodError bug. There is no other conclusion. Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Michael.Weber@dlr.de wrote: > > > >- Jing v20030619 seems not to recognize Schematron rules. > > > > > > > jing has a schematron validator, but only as a separate stage > whereby you run foo.sch against bar.xml. So write a wrapper > which > - runs jing normally > - if that succeeds, extracts Schematron rules to temporary schema file > - runs jing with that temporary file Thank you and Dave for the explanation. I was too fixed on my embedded rules. Is there anybody who has built or plans to build such a two phase validating process on the base of jing. Kind regards Michael -- Dr. Michael Weber German Aerospace Center Rutherfordstr. 2 D-12489 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 67055-750 Fax: +49 (0)30 67055-8750 mailto:Michael.Weber@dlr.de http://www.dlr.de/ From kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com Tue Mar 16 20:09:57 2004 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dsl092-249-235.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.249.235]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i2GD9uVZ049840 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:09:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: (melon started for [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:09:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:09:50 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi To: Michael.Weber@dlr.de In-Reply-To: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B99@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> References: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B99@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> Message-Id: <20040316050949.2868.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 X-MTA: MELON SMTP Server version 1.28 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Java Error while using Sun Multi-Schema Validator X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:09:57 -0000 Hi, have you tried the latest version from http://msv.dev.java.net/ ? I just downloaded Xalan-2.6.2 and those two seems to work fine together. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From ndw@nwalsh.com Thu Mar 18 01:50:16 2004 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2HIoFHi010682 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:50:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from phys-bur-1 ([129.148.9.72]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2HIo3WC019858 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury (vpn-129-150-32-21.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.32.21]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HUQ00J95HNEK1@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by mercury with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B3g6f-00011C-00; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:49:33 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:49:33 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] embedded Schematron rules within RELAX NG schemas In-reply-to: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9F@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> To: Michael.Weber@dlr.de Message-id: <87znafe2bm.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="=-=-=" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) References: <0A2B1FE98F457A40B20C619CD5795315209B9F@ba-30.user.pt-dlr.de> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:50:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain / was heard to say: | Hello, | | Alex Peshkov wrote: |> |> MWdd> - Sun Multi-Schema XML Validator Schematron add-on v1.5 with j2sdk1.4 |> MWdd> led to a Java failure caused by the Xalan version shipped with the |> MWdd> Java run time environment which can not be overridden. |> |> You can suppress use of this buggy Xalan version if you wish. Take |> a look here: http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/faq.html#faq-N100CC | | Thank you for your kind tip. | | Some tests later I must state that the Multi-Schema Validator must | have itself the AbstractMethodError bug. There is no other conclusion. I've certainly used MSV/Relnames with Schematron. You'll find some Schematron rules in the DocBook NG grammar, for example. Be seeing you, norm -- Norman Walsh | If someone tells you he is going to http://nwalsh.com/ | make 'a realistic decision', you | immediately understand that he has | resolved to do something bad.--Mary | McCarthy --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAWJ29OyltUcwYWjsRAl6xAKCJfczoU4yGOg97KmO4d8Q7DnQJ3gCfRvfG MvmtxthSaRSc+wyhA+Pbg6c= =XGVw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Mar 25 03:14:01 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i2OKE0Nq095655 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:14:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30BC25F981 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:11:42 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040324200929.026c8a50@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:11:16 +0000 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] No schema loader available for file extension `xml' X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:14:01 -0000 Anyone know how this error message is originating.... Mike :-) I think it originated from some of your code. An association between an extension and a schema. Problem is that once it fails, few of the nxml mode commands work. TIA, DaveP From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Apr 6 01:48:25 2004 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i35ImNUe032777 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:48:25 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: yVaOWsJkxWppDpxbl3udcA 1081190574 Received: from [134.53.144.97] (ip134-053-144-097.s144.muohio.edu [134.53.144.97]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B9395BDDD for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 14:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 14:47:11 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] trang error X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 18:48:26 -0000 Am trying to convert an rnc file to xsd, but getting the below error. Can someone give me a hint on what's going on? Bruce Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.Transformer.getTransformedAttribut eGroup(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.Transformer.visitAttributeGroup(Un known Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.basic.AttributeGroupDefinition.acc ept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.basic.Schema.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.basic.SchemaTransformer.transform( Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.XsdOutputFormat.output(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver.doMain(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver.main(Unknown Source) From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Apr 6 03:13:20 2004 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i35KDJwL044663 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 03:13:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i35KBY4g023291; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:11:34 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i35KDC6L009823; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:13:12 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06b.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:13:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: "'Bruce D'Arcus'" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] trang error Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:13:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 20:13:22 -0000 >Am trying to convert an rnc file to xsd, but getting the below error. >Can someone give me a hint on what's going on? You might want to send along the rnc file, or even better, the shortest version of it you can create that generates the same error. Bob From eric@aquameta.com Sun Apr 11 07:10:18 2004 Received: from castor.dioscouri.org (castor.dioscouri.org [66.92.173.21]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3B0AIRL023827 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 07:10:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from merlin.pegasi.net (merlin.pegasi.net [66.180.228.196]) by castor.dioscouri.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1022356D8 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:10:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from merlin.pegasi.net (merlin.pegasi.net [127.0.0.1]) by merlin.pegasi.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i3B0ACAm004004 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:10:12 GMT Received: (from eric@localhost) by merlin.pegasi.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i3B0ACnE004003 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:10:12 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: merlin.pegasi.net: eric set sender to eric@aquameta.com using -f Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:10:12 +0000 From: Eric Hanson To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20040411001012.A3457@aquameta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2i Subject: [relaxng-user] open or extensible schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:10:19 -0000 Hi all, I'm trying to write an "open" schema, one that be extended by third parties. I've been reading Eric van der Vlist's "Writing Extensible Schemas" [1] which details quite nicely how to write extension modules, but it's not exactly what I'm looking for. Is there a way to define a schema that rather than saying what /can/ be present, just says what /must/ be present? For example, say these are required elements: Can can there be schema that would validate the following document: because foo and bar are present? Basically I want to say that *anything* can be under element foo as long as bar is present. Thanks, Eric [1] http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ch14s01.html From gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Sun Apr 11 08:08:29 2004 Received: from mail.storm.ca (mail.storm.ca [209.87.239.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3B18Tdb029016 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 08:08:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from CRANE-T23.CraneSoftwrights.com (ppp-216-106-108-184.storm.ca [216.106.108.184]) by mail.storm.ca (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i3B18B607990; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 21:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040410210610.01659d98@pop.storm.ca> X-Sender: crane@pop.storm.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 21:08:01 -0400 To: Eric Hanson , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] open or extensible schemas In-Reply-To: <20040411001012.A3457@aquameta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 01:08:30 -0000 At 2004-04-11 00:10 +0000, Eric Hanson wrote: >Is there a way to define a schema that rather than saying what >/can/ be present, just says what /must/ be present? >... >Can can there be schema that would validate the following >document: >... >because foo and bar are present? Basically I want to say that >*anything* can be under element foo as long as bar is present. Below is a brute-force way of ensuring there is at least one ... I tried to use interleave but couldn't see a way to enforce the required element. I hope this helps. .................... Ken T:\ftemp>type eric.rnc start = element foo { element * - bar { empty }*, element bar { empty }, element * - bar { empty }* } # end of file T:\ftemp>type eric1.xml T:\ftemp>jing -c eric.rnc eric1.xml T:\ftemp>type eric2.xml T:\ftemp>jing -c eric.rnc eric2.xml T:\ftemp>type eric3.xml T:\ftemp>jing -c eric.rnc eric3.xml T:\ftemp\eric3.xml:4: error: unfinished element T:\ftemp> -- Public courses: Spring 2004 world tour of hands-on XSL instruction Each week: Monday-Wednesday: XSLT/XPath; Thursday-Friday: XSL-FO Hong Kong May 17-21; Bremen Germany May 24-28; Helsinki June 14-18 World-wide on-site corporate, govt. & user group XML/XSL training. G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Apr 11 12:45:13 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3B5jAVv053967 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:45:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i3B5g5em085200; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:42:05 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i3B5g35V085199; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:42:03 +0500 (AMST) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:42:03 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200404110542.i3B5g35V085199@adat.davidashen.net> To: eric@aquameta.com, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] open or extensible schemas In-Reply-To: <20040411001012.A3457@aquameta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 05:45:15 -0000 > *anything* can be under element foo as long as bar is present. anything = (element * {anything}|attribute * {text}|text)* anything-bar = ( element *-bar {anything} | attribute * {text} | text ) * start = element foo { element bar {anything}+ & any-bar } From eric@aquameta.com Wed Apr 14 17:39:41 2004 Received: from castor.dioscouri.org (castor.dioscouri.org [66.92.173.21]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3EAdetd054008 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:39:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from merlin.pegasi.net (merlin.pegasi.net [66.180.228.196]) by castor.dioscouri.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252D25F99; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:40:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from merlin.pegasi.net (merlin.pegasi.net [127.0.0.1]) by merlin.pegasi.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i3EAdYkb014881; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:39:34 GMT Received: (from eric@localhost) by merlin.pegasi.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i3EAdXY7014880; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:39:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: merlin.pegasi.net: eric set sender to eric@aquameta.com using -f Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:39:33 +0000 From: Eric Hanson To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] open or extensible schemas Message-ID: <20040414103933.A14874@aquameta.com> References: <20040411001012.A3457@aquameta.com> <200404110542.i3B5g35V085199@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200404110542.i3B5g35V085199@adat.davidashen.net>; from dvd@davidashen.net on Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:42:03AM +0500 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:39:41 -0000 This works great, thanks. Eric David Tolpin (dvd@davidashen.net) wrote: > > *anything* can be under element foo as long as bar is present. > > anything = (element * {anything}|attribute * {text}|text)* > anything-bar = ( element *-bar {anything} | attribute * {text} | text ) * > start = element foo { element bar {anything}+ & any-bar } From erik@bruchez.org Tue Apr 20 08:38:34 2004 Received: from unet.scdi.org (dsl092-029-059.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.29.59]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3K1cXRP016090 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:38:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from bruchez.org (dsl092-029-136.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.29.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by unet.scdi.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with ESMTP id i3K1cSBg002182; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:38:30 -0700 Message-ID: <40847F14.7050003@bruchez.org> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:38:28 -0700 From: Erik Bruchez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -4.05 () BAYES_00,MY_DSL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Subject: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 01:38:35 -0000 All, Is the following Relax NG fragment supposed to work? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't but MSV gives me the following error: more than one branch of accepts the element "property" name1 name2 name3 Thanks, -Erik From tor@helland.org Wed Apr 21 18:20:40 2004 Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3LBKdw6075750 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:20:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from tor (185.80-202-10.nextgentel.com [80.202.10.185]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980DD2042; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:20:38 +0200 (MEST) From: "Tor Helland" To: "'Erik Bruchez'" , Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:22:22 +0200 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcQnjZSWW4JArmAcQ7i5C5hax6dMEQABMD9Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <40847F14.7050003@bruchez.org> Message-Id: <20040421112038.980DD2042@mail.broadpark.no> Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:20:40 -0000 XMLBuddy has no problem with it. Try to validate it with Jing, to check if it's simply a validator difference. -tor -----Original Message----- From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Erik Bruchez Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 3:38 AM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements All, Is the following Relax NG fragment supposed to work? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't but MSV gives me the following error: more than one branch of accepts the element "property" name1 name2 name3 Thanks, -Erik _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Apr 21 19:57:38 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3LCvaTK088676 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:57:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (i216123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.125.216.123]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD54573D9; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:57:34 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:52:56 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: Erik Bruchez Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements In-Reply-To: <40847F14.7050003@bruchez.org> References: <40847F14.7050003@bruchez.org> Message-Id: <20040421214913.6E62.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.08.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:57:39 -0000 On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:38:28 -0700 Erik Bruchez wrote: > > Is the following Relax NG fragment supposed to work? I don't see any > reason why it shouldn't but MSV gives me the following error: No, it should not work. > more than one branch of accepts the element "property" This means that the first constraint in 7.4 of the RNG spec is not satisfied. http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/spec-20011203.html#interleave-restrictions The motivation for this restriction is to make implementations easier. In particular, it helps implementation of data binding tools and boolean operations. How about changing with ? Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From tor@helland.org Wed Apr 21 20:54:25 2004 Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3LDsOXS096769 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:54:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from tor (185.80-202-10.nextgentel.com [80.202.10.185]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170E4248C; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:54:25 +0200 (MEST) From: "Tor Helland" To: "'Erik Bruchez'" , Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:56:13 +0200 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-Index: AcQnjZSWW4JArmAcQ7i5C5hax6dMEQABMD9QAAV1MyA= Message-Id: <20040421135425.170E4248C@mail.broadpark.no> Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:54:26 -0000 > XMLBuddy has no problem with it. Try to validate it with Jing, to check if it's simply a validator difference. Awfully sorry, XMLBuddy not to blame, I made a mistake :-( -tor -----Original Message----- From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Erik Bruchez Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 3:38 AM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements All, Is the following Relax NG fragment supposed to work? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't but MSV gives me the following error: more than one branch of accepts the element "property" name1 name2 name3 Thanks, -Erik _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed Apr 21 23:49:56 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3LGnukk022218 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:49:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09756 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:28:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:28:32 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements Message-ID: <20040421002832.GD4076@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:49:56 -0000 Erik Bruchez scripsit: > Is the following Relax NG fragment supposed to work? I don't see any > reason why it shouldn't but MSV gives me the following error: > > more than one branch of accepts the element "property" MSV is correct. One of the few restrictions imposed on RNG for the sake of implementation is that it must be possible to determine, when dealing with interleaved streams of elements, which element belongs to which stream solely by looking at the element name. It's not allowed to distinguish the stream members on the basis of their attributes or child elements. (For this purpose, text is treated like an element: it's only allowed in one of the streams.) Fortunately for you, you have only three cases, so the permutational explosion is modest: type1 = element property { attribute name {"name1"}, attribute value {xsd:anyURI}} type2 = element property { attribute name {"name2"}, attribute value {xsd:integer}} type3 = element property { attribute name {"name3"}, attribute value {xsd:string}} allthree = (type1?, type2?, type3?) | (type2?, type1?, type3?) | (type1?, type3?, type2?) | (type3?, type1?, type2?) | (type2?, type3?, type1?) | (type3?, type2?, type1?) Now if you really have 39 cases, your best hope is to loosen the content model (accept more documents than you really want): all39 = (type1 | type2 | type3 | ... | type39)* -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." --Hal Abelson From bob@objfac.com Thu Apr 22 05:10:36 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3LMAZ06064152 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 05:10:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CB21496C0; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4086F15B.8070005@objfac.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:10:35 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tor Helland Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Interleaving optional elements References: <20040421135425.170E4248C@mail.broadpark.no> In-Reply-To: <20040421135425.170E4248C@mail.broadpark.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:10:36 -0000 Tor Helland wrote: >>XMLBuddy has no problem with it. Try to validate it with Jing, to check if > > it's simply a validator difference. > > Awfully sorry, XMLBuddy not to blame, I made a mistake :-( You had me worried there for a second. I'd be very surprised if XMLBuddy allowed anything jing doesn't, since it uses jing for validation! ;-} Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ From erik@bruchez.org Fri Apr 23 08:32:57 2004 Received: from unet.scdi.org (dsl092-029-059.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.29.59]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3N1Wuig072931 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:32:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from bruchez.org (dsl092-029-136.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.29.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by unet.scdi.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with ESMTP id i3N1WsBg029970; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:32:54 -0700 Message-ID: <40887244.1000000@bruchez.org> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:32:52 -0700 From: Erik Bruchez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <40847F14.7050003@bruchez.org> In-Reply-To: <40847F14.7050003@bruchez.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -4.05 () BAYES_00,MY_DSL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Interleaving optional elements X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:32:59 -0000 Thanks to everybody for the enlightening replies! -Erik Erik Bruchez wrote: > All, > > Is the following Relax NG fragment supposed to work? I don't see any > reason why it shouldn't but MSV gives me the following error: > > more than one branch of accepts the element "property" > > > > > > name1 > > > > > > > > > > name2 > > > > > > > > > > name3 > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > -Erik From lists@jeffrafter.com Sun Apr 25 14:37:33 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3P7bWe2033014 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:37:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:37:26 -0700 Message-ID: <009e01c42a98$28652790$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: , Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:37:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] RELAXNG Compact Syntax and character escapes X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 07:37:33 -0000 I am working on a RNC tokenizer and have reached a stumbling block. In section 2.4 of the specification the parser must handle character escape sequences of the form \x{n}. Easy enough. But the note in the section (and grammar) specifies that there may be more than one "x" character. In the grammar this is indefinite-- and this is presumably correct as the reversible transformation may be compounded upon itself (some of the confusion may stem from the odd text in the note "...the transformation replaces adds an extra..."). Obviously however, there are some pathological cases here. I am wondering if there are real world limits that others are imposing (e.g. max 2 xx). Additionally, are there limits that other developers are placing on the length of the hexadecimal string? I have written a chunking parser for the decoding and am trying to handle the end of buffer cases in a sane fashion. I tried to see if there were any errata on the subject and found a broken link. Thanks, Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Sun Apr 25 15:49:52 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3P8npmt039383 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:49:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:49:46 -0700 Message-ID: <00aa01c42aa2$42ddfed0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: , References: <009e01c42a98$28652790$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:49:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [xml-dev] RELAXNG Compact Syntax and character escapes X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:49:52 -0000 > Obviously however, there are some pathological cases here. I am wondering if > there are real world limits that others are imposing (e.g. max 2 xx). > Additionally, are there limits that other developers are placing on the > length of the hexadecimal string? I have written a chunking parser for the > decoding and am trying to handle the end of buffer cases in a sane fashion. Because I am currently not doing a transformation as described in the note I decided to simply discard additional "x" characters. I still have a question about the hexadecimal number though. Because the language I am working in has a char limit of U+FFFF, I decided to limit my the input to the same number. Again, I have the potential of multiple leading "0" characters, but I again discard them. Does this sound reasonable? Thanks for letting me think out loud... Jeff Rafter From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Apr 25 15:52:02 2004 Received: from vagabond.davidashen.net (clusterfw.beeline3G.net [217.118.66.232]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3P8pm9O039587 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:51:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from dvd by vagabond.davidashen.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BHfQq-0000PZ-00; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:56:12 +0500 To: lists@jeffrafter.com, relaxng-user@relaxng.org, xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAXNG Compact Syntax and character escapes In-Reply-To: <009e01c42a98$28652790$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Message-Id: From: David Tolpin Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:56:12 +0500 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:52:02 -0000 > sequences of the form \x{n}. Easy enough. But the note in the section (and > grammar) specifies that there may be more than one "x" character. In the > grammar this is indefinite-- and this is presumably correct as the > reversible transformation may be compounded upon itself (some of the > confusion may stem from the odd text in the note "...the transformation > replaces adds an extra..."). > > Obviously however, there are some pathological cases here. I am wondering if > there are real world limits that others are imposing (e.g. max 2 xx). Handling multiple x's is trivial, just add a counter. Download rnv from http://davidashen.net/rnv.html; rnc.c is a compact syntax parser, including tokenizer. 'struct rnc_source' contains 'int nx', which the counter of x's in the current escape sequence. If \ followed by x+ is followed by curly braces, it is folded and unescaped. If it is not, then x's are counted and returned that many times. Look at rnc.c:getv(struct rnc_source *sp) David Tolpin From lists@jeffrafter.com Mon Apr 26 12:15:45 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3Q5Fij1070358 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:15:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:15:40 -0700 Message-ID: <00fe01c42b4d$84ec95b0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Elliotte Rusty Harold" References: <009e01c42a98$28652790$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <00aa01c42aa2$42ddfed0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:15:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [xml-dev] RELAXNG Compact Syntax and character escapes X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 05:15:46 -0000 > I'm certainly no Relax expert, but on the face of it is does *NOT* > sound reasonable. In general XML and Unicode processing, one *MUST* > handle characters with code points beyond U+FFFF. They are not > optional. This is true even if your programming language (Java > perhaps?) has inadequate support for them. What was I thinking? Don't code at 2:00 a.m., or at least don't email lists when you can't figure stuff out at 2:00 a.m. I think this is a better effort, all it took was some reading-- but of course comments are still eagerly awaited. // Set the character, but check for surrogates if (escapeChar <= 0xFFFF) { // Output directly readBuffer[i] = (char)escapeChar; } else if (escapeChar <= 0x10FFFF) { escapeChar -= 0x10000; // Greater than 16 bits (max 20), need a surrogate // Output High Surrogate (add top 10 bits to 0xD800) readBuffer[i++] = ((char) (0xD800 | (escapeChar >> 10))); // Output Low Surrogate (add bottom 10 bits to 0xDC00) readBuffer[i] = ((char) (0xDC00 | (escapeChar & 0x03FF))); } else { // The value is too large Error("Character reference is too large for UTF-16", ((int)escapeChar).ToString("X"), null); } All the best, Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Mon Apr 26 12:29:11 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3Q5TAD1071950 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:29:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:29:06 -0700 Message-ID: <011c01c42b4f$65c13c70$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: , , "David Tolpin" References: Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAXNG Compact Syntax and character escapes Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:29:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 05:29:13 -0000 > Handling multiple x's is trivial, just add a counter. Right. That is so obvious now. What's really funny is it took about 20 minutes for it to sink in after I read the email. Another quick question-- I noticed in a thread on relaxng-user that you mentioned for newline markers you are using '\0' (which I confirmed in rnc.c). I was actually going the same route and wondered if this the general practice, or if others are using a different strategy. Thanks again! Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Tue Apr 27 00:27:58 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3QHRwgE063370 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:27:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:27:50 -0700 Message-ID: <029801c42bb3$ce89e360$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:27:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] Looking for errata X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:27:59 -0000 I am looking for the errata for the compact syntax. Does a document for this exist? Thanks, Jeff Rafter From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Tue Apr 27 06:00:25 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3QN0OMx010450 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 06:00:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (i216123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.125.216.123]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5F377FB; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:00:19 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:55:22 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: "Jeff Rafter" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Looking for errata In-Reply-To: <029801c42bb3$ce89e360$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> References: <029801c42bb3$ce89e360$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Message-Id: <20040427074928.2C8D.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.08.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:00:25 -0000 On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:27:50 -0700 "Jeff Rafter" wrote: > I am looking for the errata for the compact syntax. Does a document for this > exist? There are no errata, but there should be a document for listing the empty list. Such a document was created last year, but the link is broken. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Apr 27 10:59:10 2004 Received: from vagabond.davidashen.net (mail@ppp99-96.dialup.mtu-net.ru [212.188.99.96]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3R3x8GY049233 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:59:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from dvd by vagabond.davidashen.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIJp5-00009W-00; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:03:55 +0500 To: EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp, lists@jeffrafter.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Looking for errata In-Reply-To: <20040427074928.2C8D.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Message-Id: From: David Tolpin Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:03:55 +0500 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:59:12 -0000 > From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Apr 27 09:00:14 2004 > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:55:22 +0900 > From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" > To: "Jeff Rafter" > Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Looking for errata > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > > > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:27:50 -0700 > "Jeff Rafter" wrote: > > > I am looking for the errata for the compact syntax. Does a document for this > > exist? > > There are no errata, but there should be a document for listing the > empty list. Such a document was created last year, but the link is > broken. > Issues worth including into errata had been discussed on this list at the end of the last year; there are were few things to resolve and they didn't change semantics. David From lists@jeffrafter.com Tue Apr 27 13:12:40 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3R6CdKw068885 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:12:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:12:35 -0700 Message-ID: <038201c42c1e$a37c2640$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: , "David Tolpin" References: Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Looking for errata Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:12:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, relax-ng-comment@lists.oasis-open.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 06:12:41 -0000 > Issues worth including into errata had been discussed on this list > at the end of the last year; there are were few things to resolve > and they didn't change semantics. I looked through the archives quickly but did not see references to my issues. So I will post them here. I am cc'ing relax-ng-comment. I am not sure they are all errors. (1) Section 2: EBNF production for quotedIdentifier shows "\" NCName. Could this be more explicit as "\" keyword? I thought the intent of "\" was to escape names that would otherwise be treated as keywords. (2) Section 4. Editorial. The text: y ... local name foo, attributes x and content x;... the second "x" should be "y". (4) Section 2.4 Note. Editorial. "the transformation replaces adds an extra" These are all pretty minor. Cheers, Jeff Rafter From Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au Wed Apr 28 06:15:05 2004 Received: from mail1.sen-net.net (mail1.sen-net.net [203.55.45.7]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3RNF3Sw013107 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:15:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.200]) by mail1.sen-net.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i3RNEutp031184 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:14:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.23]) by cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i3RNEuQR095769 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:14:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au ([161.117.168.23]) by cw-exg-hub01 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:14:54 +1000 Received: by cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:14:54 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Hutchison, Ben" To: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:14:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42CAD.7264F5C0" Subject: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:15:05 -0000 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CAD.7264F5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Hutchison, Ben Sent: Tuesday, 27 April 2004 3:26:pm To: 'relaxng-user@relaxng.org' Subject: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar Hello, I am considering using RelaxNG for describing the structure of XML configuration files used in a enterprise software system, because its syntax seems far more intutive than Schemas. I have developed a grammar by reading the RelaxNG tutorial, but when I attempt to validate it using Jing (within OxygenXML) I get an brief error message I cannot understand: E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains "attribute" When I use the inbuilt Trang tool, I can successfully convert the compact grammar to XML form, but a conversion on to XML Schema results in a message like "Choice between attributes and children cannot be presented; approximating", but no schema object is produced. There doesn't seem to be any reference or further explanation for parsing errors. I have spent several hours on this and will have to abandon the use of RelaxNG unless I can obtain a speedy resolution. My grammar is shown below, including a leading * indicating the line the validator fails on. Note that it relates to the only case of recursion in the grammar- a ConfigGroup can contain nested ConfigGroups within it. Is anyone able to offer some explanation as to what these problems mean? Any general advice on how to "debug" a RelexNG grammar would also be appreciated. Regards Ben Hutchison ================================ namespace rng = " http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0 " datatypes xsd = " http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes " start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } NamedElementAttributes = attribute name { text }, attribute platform { text }? StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ), NamedElementAttributes ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { ConfigGroupEntry*, NamedElementAttributes } www.sensis.com.au A leading Australian advertising, information and directories business. www.yellowpages.com.au www.whitepages.com.au www.citysearch.com.au www.whereis.com.au www.telstra.com.au This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888] www.sensis.com.au A leading Australian advertising, information and directories business. www.yellowpages.com.au www.whitepages.com.au www.citysearch.com.au www.whereis.com.au www.telstra.com.au This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888] ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CAD.7264F5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Hutchison, Ben
Sent: Tuesday, 27 April 2004 3:26:pm
To: 'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'
Subject: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar

Hello,

I am considering using RelaxNG for describing the structure of XML configuration files used in a enterprise software system, because its syntax seems far more intutive than Schemas.

I have developed a grammar by reading the RelaxNG tutorial, but when I attempt to validate it using Jing (within OxygenXML) I get an brief error message I cannot understand: E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains "attribute"

When I use the inbuilt Trang tool, I can successfully convert the compact grammar to XML form, but a conversion on to XML Schema results in a message like "Choice between attributes and children cannot be presented; approximating", but no schema object is produced.

There doesn't seem to be any reference or further explanation for parsing errors. I have spent several hours on this and will have to abandon the use of RelaxNG unless I can obtain a speedy resolution.

My grammar is shown below, including a leading * indicating the line the validator fails on. Note that it relates to the only case of recursion in the grammar- a ConfigGroup can contain nested ConfigGroups within it.  Is anyone able to offer some explanation as to what these problems mean? Any general advice on how to "debug" a RelexNG grammar would also be appreciated.

Regards
Ben Hutchison
================================
namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"
datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes"

start = element ConfigRoot  { ConfigGroup* }

NamedElementAttributes =
   attribute name { text },
   attribute platform { text }?

StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string }
IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer }
FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float }
BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean }
PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue)

Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* }
MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue }
Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* }

ConfigValue =  ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ), NamedElementAttributes

ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup |  ConfigValue)

ConfigGroup =  element ConfigGroup {
   ConfigGroupEntry*,
   NamedElementAttributes
} 

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information 
and directories business. 

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
www.telstra.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888]

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information 
and directories business. 

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
www.telstra.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888]
------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CAD.7264F5C0-- From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Apr 28 06:52:49 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3RNqm5S017106 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:52:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (i216123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.125.216.123]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC1166252; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:46 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:47:55 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: "Hutchison, Ben" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <20040428084620.744A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.08.01 [ja] Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:52:49 -0000 This works. Cheers, Makoto ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } NamedElementAttributes = attribute name { text } | attribute platform { text }? StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) | NamedElementAttributes ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { ConfigGroupEntry* } -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From bob@objfac.com Wed Apr 28 07:21:21 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S0LKgD020704 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:21:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B781496A0; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <408EF907.2010108@objfac.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:21:27 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hutchison, Ben" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:21:22 -0000 Hutchison, Ben wrote: > Hello, > > I am considering using RelaxNG for describing the structure of XML > configuration files used in a enterprise software system, because its > syntax seems far more intutive than Schemas. > > I have developed a grammar by reading the RelaxNG tutorial, but when I > attempt to validate it using Jing (within OxygenXML) I get an brief > error message I cannot understand: E "oneOrMore" contains "group" > contains "attribute" ConfigGroupEntry* where ConfigGroupEntry has as an alternative ConfigValue, a group that contains a group, NamedElementAttributes, that contains two attributes. The "oneOrMore" reference is because * (zeroOrMore) is defined in RELAX NG as +? (optional oneOrMore). NamedElementAttributes is obviously redundant as it is used, so a simple fix would be to take it out of ConfigValue. > When I use the inbuilt Trang tool, I can successfully convert the > compact grammar to XML form, but a conversion on to XML Schema results > in a message like "Choice between attributes and children cannot be > presented; approximating", but no schema object is produced. Trang can't convert everything, esp. an invalid schema, and even if it did the conversion could not be faithful where there is a choice between an attribute and an element. XML Schema can't describe this. > There doesn't seem to be any reference or further explanation for > parsing errors. I have spent several hours on this and will have to > abandon the use of RelaxNG unless I can obtain a speedy resolution. Don't give up. Granted the error messages from jing can be pretty cryptic, but in this case you had all the info you needed, you just didn't understand it. OTOH, if you had spent the same several hours trying to write an XML Schema with no previous knowledge of that language, I wager you wouldn't be anywhere near as far along as you are. ;-} > My grammar is shown below, including a leading * indicating the line the > validator fails on. Note that it relates to the only case of recursion > in the grammar- a ConfigGroup can contain nested ConfigGroups within > it. Is anyone able to offer some explanation as to what these problems > mean? Any general advice on how to "debug" a RelexNG grammar would also > be appreciated. First, a grammar isn't thoroughly checked until you try to validate with it, because some grammars are perfectly ok as fragments but not acceptable for validation. So exercise the grammar on simple test cases to make sure it is fully checked and gives you the result you wanted. Second, compact syntax error messages from jing come in two flavors: "syntax error," for which the only cure is to stare at the location identified and consult the syntax until you see the error, and substantive error messages, like the one you describe, that usually refer to constraints described in RELAX NG (non-compact) http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/spec-20011203.html. In this case, you could have found the restriction by searching the restriction section for "attribute". Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ > Regards > Ben Hutchison > ================================ > namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" > datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" > > start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } > > NamedElementAttributes = > attribute name { text }, > attribute platform { text }? > > StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } > IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } > FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } > BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } > PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) > > Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } > MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } > Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } > > ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ), NamedElementAttributes > > ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) > > ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { > ConfigGroupEntry*, > NamedElementAttributes > } From bob@objfac.com Wed Apr 28 07:34:37 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S0Ybi8022319 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:34:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A491496A0; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <408EFC24.7050700@objfac.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:34:44 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar References: <20040428084620.744A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> In-Reply-To: <20040428084620.744A.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" , "Hutchison, Ben" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:34:37 -0000 This fix removes the occurrence of oneOrMore//group//attribute by changing all the groups to choices. This certainly has pedagogic value and works in the sense that it gets rid of the error message, but one can't be sure it's what the author meant. Why is the platform attribute optional and the name attribute not? Both are optional in the revised version. It is possible the following would be a more faithful fix: namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } NamedElementAttributes = attribute name { text }, attribute platform { text }? StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { ConfigGroupEntry*, NamedElementAttributes } Bob MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: > This works. > > Cheers, > > Makoto > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" > datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" > > start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } > > NamedElementAttributes = > attribute name { text } | > attribute platform { text }? > > StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } > IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } > FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } > BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } > PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) > > Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } > MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } > Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } > > ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) | NamedElementAttributes > > ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) > > ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { > ConfigGroupEntry* > } From Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au Wed Apr 28 09:14:27 2004 Received: from mail0.sen-net.net (mail0.sen-net.net [144.140.254.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S2EOXc034964 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:14:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.200]) by mail0.sen-net.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i3S2EHPc021961 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:14:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.23]) by cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i3S2EFQR031580 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:14:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au ([161.117.168.23]) by cw-exg-hub01 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:54:29 +1000 Received: by cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:54:29 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Hutchison, Ben" To: "'MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)'" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC gr ammar Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:54:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42CB2.F8600660" Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:14:29 -0000 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CB2.F8600660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you Makoto. Do you know what the error message I received means (in terms of syntax)? -----Original Message----- From: MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) [mailto:EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp] Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 2004 9:48:am To: Hutchison, Ben Cc: 'relaxng-user@relaxng.org' Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar This works. Cheers, Makoto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } NamedElementAttributes = attribute name { text } | attribute platform { text }? StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) | NamedElementAttributes ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { ConfigGroupEntry* } -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) www.sensis.com.au A leading Australian advertising, information and directories business. www.yellowpages.com.au www.whitepages.com.au www.citysearch.com.au www.whereis.com.au www.telstra.com.au This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888] ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CB2.F8600660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC= grammar

Thank you Makoto.

Do you know what the error message I received means (in= terms of syntax)?

-----Original Message-----
From: MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) [mailto:EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 2004 9:48:am
To: Hutchison, Ben
Cc: 'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'
Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors= when processing RNC
grammar


This works.

Cheers,

Makoto

----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
namespace rng =3D "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"
datatypes xsd =3D "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes"

start =3D element ConfigRoot  { ConfigGroup* }=

NamedElementAttributes =3D
   attribute name { text } |
   attribute platform { text }?

StringValue =3D element StringValue { xsd:string }=
IntValue =3D element IntValue { xsd:integer }
FloatValue =3D element FloatValue { xsd:float }
BooleanValue =3D element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean }=
PrimitiveValue =3D (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue= | BooleanValue)

Map =3D element Map { (MapEntry)* }
MapEntry =3D element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue }
Array =3D element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* }

ConfigValue =3D  ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) |= NamedElementAttributes

ConfigGroupEntry =3D (ConfigGroup |  ConfigValue)=

ConfigGroup =3D  element ConfigGroup {
   ConfigGroupEntry*
}
--
MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)= <EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> 

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information=20
and directories business.=20

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
www.telstra.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the=
 recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss=
 and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with,=
 disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender=
 immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone=
 on [+61 3 9201 4888]
------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CB2.F8600660-- From Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au Wed Apr 28 09:21:23 2004 Received: from mail2.sen-net.net (mail2.sen-net.net [144.140.254.12]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S2LLZE036137 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:21:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.200]) by mail2.sen-net.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i3S2LFk9017288 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:21:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.23]) by cw-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i3S2LDQR039921 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:21:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au ([161.117.168.23]) by cw-exg-hub01 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:06:06 +1000 Received: by cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:06:06 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Hutchison, Ben" To: "'Bob Foster'" , "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC gr ammar Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:06:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42CBC.F96D9A40" Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:21:24 -0000 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CBC.F96D9A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, Im impressed by the rapid and authorative responses I have received to my questions; thanks due to Bob and Makoto. Further queries inline below. Apologies if they seem elementary, but Ive no formal training or prior experience developing grammars/schemas. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Foster [mailto:bob@objfac.com] ... > can't be sure it's what the author meant. Why is the platform > attribute > optional and the name attribute not? Both are optional in the revised > version. It is possible the following would be a more faithful fix: Indeed. I do require a strictly mandatory name attribute, but an optional platform attribute. ... > > error message I cannot understand: E "oneOrMore" contains "group" > > contains "attribute" > > ConfigGroupEntry* where ConfigGroupEntry has as an alternative > ConfigValue, a group that contains a group, > NamedElementAttributes, that > contains two attributes. Ok...why is this illegal? > > The "oneOrMore" reference is because * (zeroOrMore) is > defined in RELAX > NG as +? (optional oneOrMore). Ah! That was confusing me. I couldn't see any oneOrMore pattern in my grammar. > > NamedElementAttributes is obviously redundant as it is used, > so a simple > fix would be to take it out of ConfigValue. Why is it obviously redundant? I want NamedElementAttributes present on both ConfigGroups and ConfigValues. Thats why I had specified it in both clauses of my original (problematic) grammar. > Trang can't convert everything, esp. an invalid schema, and > even if it > did the conversion could not be faithful where there is a > choice between > an attribute and an element. XML Schema can't describe this. By "choice between an attribute and an element", do you mean a case of either sub-element OR attributes? I didn't think I had such a case in my grammar, and I certainly dont mean to. Thanks Ben www.sensis.com.au A leading Australian advertising, information and directories business. www.yellowpages.com.au www.whitepages.com.au www.citysearch.com.au www.whereis.com.au www.telstra.com.au This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888] ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CBC.F96D9A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC= grammar

Well, Im impressed by the rapid and authorative responses= I have received to my questions; thanks due to Bob and Makoto.

Further queries inline below. Apologies if they seem= elementary, but Ive no formal training or prior experience developing= grammars/schemas.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Foster [mailto:bob@objfac.com]
...
> can't be sure it's what the author meant. Why is= the platform
> attribute
> optional and the name attribute not? Both are= optional in the revised
> version. It is possible the following would be a= more faithful fix:

Indeed. I do require a strictly mandatory name attribute,= but an optional platform attribute.
...
> > error message I cannot understand: E= "oneOrMore" contains "group"
> > contains "attribute"
>
> ConfigGroupEntry* where ConfigGroupEntry has as an= alternative
> ConfigValue, a group that contains a group,
> NamedElementAttributes, that
> contains two attributes.

Ok...why is this illegal?
>
> The "oneOrMore" reference is because *= (zeroOrMore) is
> defined in RELAX
> NG as +? (optional oneOrMore).

Ah! That was confusing me. I couldn't see any oneOrMore= pattern in my grammar.
>
> NamedElementAttributes is obviously redundant as it= is used,
> so a simple
> fix would be to take it out of ConfigValue.

Why is it obviously redundant? I want= NamedElementAttributes present on both ConfigGroups and ConfigValues.= Thats why I had specified it in both clauses of my original (problematic)= grammar.

> Trang can't convert everything, esp. an invalid= schema, and
> even if it
> did the conversion could not be faithful where= there is a
> choice between
> an attribute and an element. XML Schema can't= describe this.

By "choice between an attribute and an= element", do you mean a case of either sub-element OR attributes? I= didn't think I had such a case in my grammar, and I certainly dont mean= to.

Thanks
Ben 

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information=20
and directories business.=20

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
www.telstra.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the=
 recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss=
 and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with,=
 disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender=
 immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone=
 on [+61 3 9201 4888]
------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CBC.F96D9A40-- From Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au Wed Apr 28 10:18:33 2004 Received: from mail1.sen-net.net (mail1.sen-net.net [203.55.45.7]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S3IUOw044250 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:18:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from su-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (su-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.200.200]) by mail1.sen-net.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i3S3IPtp051880 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:18:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.23]) by su-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i3S3IPlE042474 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:18:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au ([161.117.168.23]) by cw-exg-hub01 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:03:20 +1000 Received: by cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:03:20 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Hutchison, Ben" To: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Subject: FW: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC gr ammar Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:03:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42CCD.58E92A10" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:18:35 -0000 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CCD.58E92A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:35:pm To: Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar [If you don't mind, forward this to relaxng-user; it's rejecting my postings right now.] Hutchison, Ben scripsit: > I have developed a grammar by reading the RelaxNG tutorial, but when I > attempt to validate it using Jing (within OxygenXML) I get an brief error > message I cannot understand: E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains > "attribute" You bumped up against one of the few restrictions of RELAX NG: you can't have an iteration (either + or *, they produce the same message) that contains a sequence (or interleave, same thing in this case) of attributes. What you have written is tantamount to requesting an attribute sequence like attribute foo, attribute bar, attribute foo, attribute bar .... be allowed. This makes no sense, given that there can only be one attribute of a given name in a given element. Fortunately, the problem is easily cured by removing the first reference to NamedElementAttribute. > When I use the inbuilt Trang tool, I can successfully convert the compact > grammar to XML form, but a conversion on to XML Schema results in a message > like "Choice between attributes and children cannot be presented; > approximating", but no schema object is produced. You can't expect correct results when applying Trang to a schema that Jing rejects. The corrected version does convert to a plausible XSD schema. > Any general advice on how to "debug" a RelexNG grammar would also be > appreciated. Try to avoid creating sequences/interleaves that contain both attributes and data. They tend to be problematic. -- Work hard, John Cowan play hard, jcowan@reutershealth.com die young, http://www.reutershealth.com rot quickly. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan www.sensis.com.au A leading Australian advertising, information and directories business. www.yellowpages.com.au www.whitepages.com.au www.citysearch.com.au www.whereis.com.au www.telstra.com.au This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888] ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CCD.58E92A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC= grammar

-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:35:pm
To: Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au
Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors= when processing RNC
grammar


[If you don't mind, forward this to relaxng-user; it's= rejecting my
postings right now.]

Hutchison, Ben scripsit:

> I have developed a grammar by reading the RelaxNG= tutorial, but when I
> attempt to validate it using Jing (within= OxygenXML) I get an brief error
> message I cannot understand: E= "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains
> "attribute"

You bumped up against one of the few restrictions of= RELAX NG: you can't
have an iteration (either + or *, they produce the same= message) that
contains a sequence (or interleave, same thing in this= case) of attributes.

What you have written is tantamount to requesting an= attribute sequence
like attribute foo, attribute bar, attribute foo,= attribute bar ....
be allowed.  This makes no sense, given that there= can only be one
attribute of a given name in a given element.

Fortunately, the problem is easily cured by removing the= first
reference to NamedElementAttribute. 

> When I use the inbuilt Trang tool, I can= successfully convert the compact
> grammar to XML form, but a conversion on to XML= Schema results in a message
> like "Choice between attributes and children= cannot be presented;
> approximating", but no schema object is= produced.

You can't expect correct results when applying Trang to a= schema that
Jing rejects.  The corrected version does convert= to a plausible XSD schema.

> Any general advice on how to "debug" a= RelexNG grammar would also be
> appreciated.

Try to avoid creating sequences/interleaves that contain= both attributes
and data.  They tend to be problematic.

--
Work= hard,           &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; John Cowan
play= hard,           &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; jcowan@reutershealth.com
die= young,           &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp; http://www.reutershealth.com
rot= quickly.           =             &nb= sp;            http://www.ccil.org/~cowan 

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information=20
and directories business.=20

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
www.telstra.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the=
 recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss=
 and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with,=
 disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender=
 immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone=
 on [+61 3 9201 4888]
------_=_NextPart_001_01C42CCD.58E92A10-- From bob@objfac.com Wed Apr 28 12:00:49 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S50n2i063289 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:00:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2206E1496B1; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:00:56 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hutchison, Ben" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC gr ammar References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" , "MURATA Makoto \(FAMILY Given\)" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:00:49 -0000 Hutchison, Ben wrote: > Well, Im impressed by the rapid and authorative responses I have > received to my questions; thanks due to Bob and Makoto. > > Further queries inline below. Apologies if they seem elementary, but Ive > no formal training or prior experience developing grammars/schemas. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Foster [mailto:bob@objfac.com] > ... > > can't be sure it's what the author meant. Why is the platform > > attribute > > optional and the name attribute not? Both are optional in the revised > > version. It is possible the following would be a more faithful fix: > > Indeed. I do require a strictly mandatory name attribute, but an > optional platform attribute. > ... > > > error message I cannot understand: E "oneOrMore" contains "group" > > > contains "attribute" > > > > ConfigGroupEntry* where ConfigGroupEntry has as an alternative > > ConfigValue, a group that contains a group, > > NamedElementAttributes, that > > contains two attributes. > > Ok...why is this illegal? I'm not qualified to say _why_ it's illegal. I'm sure MURATA Makato knows. I just wanted to help you find out for yourself what the issue is. If you check the RELAX NG specification, you'll find, in section 7.1.2, a prohibition of the path: oneOrMore//group//attribute and others. RELAX NG doesn't allow any arbitrary pattern one might specify; the design is a balance between expressive power and the ability to write a practical, robust validator. The good news is that RELAX NG has far fewer restrictions than other pattern-based schema languages, and because of the clarity of its spec it is much easier to understand what those restrictions are. > > The "oneOrMore" reference is because * (zeroOrMore) is > > defined in RELAX > > NG as +? (optional oneOrMore). > > Ah! That was confusing me. I couldn't see any oneOrMore pattern in my > grammar. > > > > NamedElementAttributes is obviously redundant as it is used, > > so a simple > > fix would be to take it out of ConfigValue. > > Why is it obviously redundant? I want NamedElementAttributes present on > both ConfigGroups and ConfigValues. Thats why I had specified it in both > clauses of my original (problematic) grammar. I meant it was redundant as used. More than one path in the definition of element ConfigGroup led to NamedElementAttributes, and that was the only place ConfigGroupEntry/ConfigValue was used. > > Trang can't convert everything, esp. an invalid schema, and > > even if it > > did the conversion could not be faithful where there is a > > choice between > > an attribute and an element. XML Schema can't describe this. > > By "choice between an attribute and an element", do you mean a case of > either sub-element OR attributes? I didn't think I had such a case in my > grammar, and I certainly dont mean to. You did have such a case, though. ConfigGroupEntry had as alternatives a ConfigGroup (an element) and ConfigValue (a group that contained attributes). If in an instance document you specified one of the attributes, you could not also have a nested ConfigGroup element. Bob > Thanks > Ben From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Apr 28 15:49:35 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3S8nYbL095785 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:49:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (i216123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.125.216.123]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8BB11BFF; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:49:32 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:44:41 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: "Hutchison, Ben" , "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] FW: Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC gr ammar In-Reply-To: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com> References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com> Message-Id: <20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.08.01 [ja] Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:49:35 -0000 >> Ok...why is this illegal? > >I'm not qualified to say _why_ it's illegal. I'm sure MURATA Makato >knows. I just wanted to help you find out for yourself what the issue >is. If you check the RELAX NG specification, you'll find, in section >7.1.2, a prohibition of the path: > >oneOrMore//group//attribute >oneOrMore//group//attribute Consider an illegal pattern (element * {text}, attribute * {text})* This means that the number of attributes and that of elements are equal. Next, consider another illegal pattern (attribute a:* {text}, attribute b:* {text})* This means that the number of attributes in the namespace for the prefix a is the same as the number of attributes in the namespace for the prefix b. To implement such patterns, we cannot use abstract machines having *finite* states, since we need one state for each natural number. Then, Bali and Miaou (which I should have finished long time ago) will become impossible. Jing constructs patterns (which are "states") lazily. Thus, the above patterns can be implemented actually. However, there are some malicious patterns which cause (an earlier version of) Jing to explode, because so many patterns have to be created during evaluation. Hope this helps. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From lists@jeffrafter.com Thu Apr 29 01:26:10 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3SIQ9Oh081399 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 01:26:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:26:05 -0700 Message-ID: <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com> <20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:26:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:26:12 -0000 Sorry for the endless stream of questions. I wanted to do a quick sanity check on documentation tokenization. I have been testing my theories against XMLDistilled (which is extremely useful) and they are not lining up. Roughly, this is the step by step for reading documentation: A. Require "##" B. Skip additional "#" C. Single space is required before additional content (e.g. anything not NEWLINE or not #xA;) D. Begin reading content (until NEWLINE_MARKER or #xA;) D.1 Cannot contain "#" E. Is the line continued? E.1 Read past one NEWLINE_MARKER or #xA; E.2 Skip Indent (#x9;#x20) E.3 If "##" goto B The main questions I have are: (1) Is step "D.1" accurate? from documentationLineContent production in A.2 it seems so. It appears that XMLDistilled allows additional "#" after content (2) Is step "C" accurate? from documentationLineContent production in A.2 it seems so. Again, XMLDistilled allows this. (3) Is step "E.1" correct? I presume it makes little difference in the large scope: ## some annoation ## more annotation Ultimately this would be combined to a single documentation. My curiousity on this point is simply about correctness. Thanks, Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Thu Apr 29 02:35:47 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3SJZlTf091899 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:35:47 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:35:42 -0700 Message-ID: <02d801c42d58$004ffab0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com><20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:35:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:35:48 -0000 > ## some annoation > > ## more annotation > > Ultimately this would be combined to a single documentation. My curiousity > on this point is simply about correctness. Additionally, when documentation is separated by a comment does it still compress to a single documentation? For example: ## some annotation # A comment ## more annotation Would this compress to a single documentation item? If so, would changing "indent" to "separators" be more accurate? Effectively, it seems it would be. However in terms of process I suppose not. Even if (Documentation, Sep, Documentation) becomes (Documentation) it may still be important that it was initially tokenized otherwise, correct? Thanks again, Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Thu Apr 29 03:40:46 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3SKejAY000838 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:40:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:40 -0700 Message-ID: <02f601c42d61$13f18710$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com><20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:40:46 -0000 > I have been testing my theories against > XMLDistilled (which is extremely useful) and they are not lining up. I tested against Jing and it seems to pass all documentation that I can throw at it-- even when it seems it should be failing. I suppose I am a little confused as to whether or not: ## Documentation # comment is allowable. From my reading it is not-- but my reading could be wrong. The grammar could be saying that when the # is encountered it is the start of a separator (i.e., a comment) and is therefore the end of the documentation. For that matter, is: # Comment # Comment allowable? Again it seems to me that A.2 says it is not. But Jing and XMLDistilled accept it. > (2) Is step "C" accurate? from documentationLineContent production in A.2 it > seems so. Again, XMLDistilled allows this. I think that this is not accurate. I misread the " " restOfLine option. I believe it was trying to show that in the case of ## Some text That the resulting documentation would be "Some Text" not " Some Text". A single initial space in documentation is discarded. Thanks again, Jeff Rafter From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Apr 29 04:11:31 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3SLBVhT004871 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:11:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19247 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:11:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:11:28 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20040428211128.GD15309@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:11:31 -0000 The idea of this version, which isn't too different from the versions I've put together before, is that it embeds cleanly into RNG, using a separate namespace so that everything is a proper RNG foreign element. Specifically, any one element that matches the "regex" rule below may appear as the child of an RNG "data" element. In that way, non-regex processors just skip it properly. Here's the schema: namespace rx = "urn:x-rng:rx" # to be changed # Basic components: width-one and width-zero objects: one = element rx:one{string {length = 1} boundary = element rx:boundary { attribute type {"bos" | "eos" | "bol" | "eol" | "bow" | "eow"} # beginning/end of string, line, word } # Iterators and operators zeroOrMore = element rx:zeroOrMore {regex+} oneOrMore = element rx:oneOrMore {regex+} optional = element rx:optional {regex+} choice = element rx:choice {regex+} group = element rx:group {regex+} # Conveniences \string = element rx:string {string} # must match this string charset = element rx:charset {string} # matches one char, any of these class = element rx:class { # matches one char of a named class attribute name {xsd:NCName} } word = element rx:word {regex+} # Character set operations complement = element rx:complement {cset+} # complement of union difference = element rx:difference {cset+} intersect = element rx:intersect {cset+} union = element rx:union {cset+} range = element rx:range {string} # from r[0] to r[1], r[2] to r[3], etc. # Reference to defined regex # Regexes are defined using define/data/rx:* ref = element rx:ref { attribute name {xsd:NCName} } # Escape hatch pattern = element rx:pattern {string} # Posix regex string # Content models regex = boundary | zeroOrMore | oneOrMore | optional | choice | group | \string | word | cset | ref | pattern cset = one | charset | class | complement | difference | union | intersection | range -- Winter: MIT, John Cowan Keio, INRIA, jcowan@reutershealth.com Issue lots of Drafts. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan So much more to understand! http://www.reutershealth.com Might simplicity return? (A "tanka", or extended haiku) From lists@jeffrafter.com Thu Apr 29 04:47:14 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3SLlDqW009397 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:47:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:47:09 -0700 Message-ID: <031701c42d6a$5d255ed0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Jeff Rafter" , References: <038201c42c1e$a37c2640$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:47:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, relax-ng-comment@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Error in "primary" production in A.1 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:47:15 -0000 In the "primary" production in A.1 of Relax NG Compact syntax, the keyword "empty" is repeated. In the second case it should be "text". Thanks, Jeff Rafter From bob@objfac.com Thu Apr 29 12:15:45 2004 Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (postfix@sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3T5FjGQ067705 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:15:45 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64BE13D87E; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40908F7F.50800@objfac.com> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:15:43 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Rafter Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com><20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <02f601c42d61$13f18710$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> In-Reply-To: <02f601c42d61$13f18710$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:15:47 -0000 Jeff Rafter wrote: >>I have been testing my theories against >>XMLDistilled (which is extremely useful) and they are not lining up. > > > I tested against Jing and it seems to pass all documentation that I can > throw at it-- even when it seems it should be failing. I suppose I am a > little confused as to whether or not: > > ## Documentation # comment > > is allowable. From my reading it is not-- but my reading could be wrong. The > grammar could be saying that when the # is encountered it is the start of a > separator (i.e., a comment) and is therefore the end of the documentation. I don't see any way a comment could jump into the middle of documentation, which is a named terminal, which is a token. > For that matter, is: > > # Comment # Comment > > allowable? Again it seems to me that A.2 says it is not. But Jing and > XMLDistilled accept it. Perhaps you should say why you think A.2 says it is not. Comments start with # and continue to the end of the line. If a succeeding # is on the same line (and not immediately following) why would it be treated specially? > ...I think that this is not accurate. I misread the " " restOfLine option. I > believe it was trying to show that in the case of > > ## Some text > > That the resulting documentation would be "Some Text" not " Some Text". A > single initial space in documentation is discarded. I think you're right about this. Bob Foster From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Thu Apr 29 20:35:13 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3TDZCr0024970 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 20:35:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i3TBJ5vp030893; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:19:05 +0100 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 30776-05; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:19:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i3TBIwfx030847; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:18:58 +0100 Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:18:53 +0100 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E26E9@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: jcowan@reutershealth.com, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:18:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:35:14 -0000 The idea of this version, which isn't too different from the versions I've put together before, is that it embeds cleanly into RNG, using a separate namespace so that everything is a proper RNG foreign element. Specifically, any one element that matches the "regex" rule below may appear as the child of an RNG "data" element. In that way, non-regex processors just skip it properly. Would you put a little context around this please John? Or a uri where I might read about it? TIA, DaveP ** snip here ** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. 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RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat May 1 00:46:25 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i3UHkO1x051139 for ; Sat, 1 May 2004 00:46:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE83254FBB for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:46:20 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:46:14 +0100 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] rng analysis X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:46:25 -0000 Playing with a newish editor, http://www.xmldistilled.com/tools/editor/index.htm It needs an input file to control whether or not inserted elements are block level or inlines. I'm guessing this can be derived from the schema, and for about the third time I'm writing xslt to 'tree walk' the schema. I get the feeling I'm doing it wrong, too many options at any one point, and wondered who else has done this for whatever reason. Has anyone a stylesheet that walks the schema and can tell from any element the parent element name and produce a 'tree' in the correct order? Or perhaps even suggest an approach that would make sense for me to try further? regards DaveP From bob@objfac.com Sat May 1 10:28:29 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i413SSZC017056 for ; Sat, 1 May 2004 10:28:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5EA149696; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 20:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:28:26 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rng analysis References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 03:28:29 -0000 The way you phrased this suggests to me that I don't understand what you're asking. Are you trying to tell whether inserted elements should be indented or flowed? For that I look at two things: xml:space="preserve" and whether the (parent) element content is mixed. If you just want to provide assistance, my big (yawn) secret is that I validate the document to the insertion point, then produce the First set of the current pattern as the list of alternatives. Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ Dave Pawson wrote: > Playing with a newish editor, > > http://www.xmldistilled.com/tools/editor/index.htm > > It needs an input file to control whether or not > inserted elements are block level or inlines. > > I'm guessing this can be derived from the schema, > and for about the third time I'm writing xslt to 'tree walk' > the schema. > > I get the feeling I'm doing it wrong, too many options at > any one point, and wondered who else has done this for whatever reason. > > Has anyone a stylesheet that walks the schema and can tell > from any element the parent element name and produce a 'tree' in > the correct order? > Or perhaps even suggest an approach that would make sense > for me to try further? > > regards DaveP From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat May 1 18:29:19 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i41BTJU1062458 for ; Sat, 1 May 2004 18:29:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD60B2568A5; Sat, 1 May 2004 12:29:16 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040501122617.0275f040@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 12:29:04 +0100 To: Bob Foster From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rng analysis In-Reply-To: <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 11:29:20 -0000 At 04:28 01/05/2004, Bob Foster wrote: >The way you phrased this suggests to me that I don't understand what >you're asking. Are you trying to tell whether inserted elements should be >indented or flowed? For that I look at two things: xml:space="preserve" >and whether the (parent) element content is mixed. > >If you just want to provide assistance, my big (yawn) secret is that I >validate the document to the insertion point, then produce the First set >of the current pattern as the list of alternatives. That particular editor uses this external file to determine (at least) whether the dropped in tag pair should be inlines or blocks or Analysing a schema is something I've now wanted to do for 3 different reasons, and I've a feeling that the stylesheet to do it is quite hairy. Psst. Have a look at the way they 'drop' a pair of tags on a highlighted block of text! Delightful IMHO. I've not seen that since I saw some dedicated markup software at Xerox! regards DaveP From darolst@pantor.com Mon May 3 23:21:18 2004 Received: from ned.pantor.com ([80.252.175.114]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i43GLHGN014240 for ; Mon, 3 May 2004 23:21:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com ([10.0.0.227]) by ned.pantor.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43GLG27020183 for ; Mon, 3 May 2004 18:21:16 +0200 Message-ID: <40967176.8050908@pantor.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:21:10 +0200 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rng analysis References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040501122617.0275f040@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040501122617.0275f040@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:21:20 -0000 Hi Dave, Have you tried using a simplified rng schema as input to your stylesheet? If not, you could try it, it will make things a lot easier. I've used this method to successfully generate and declarations from rng schemas. The stylesheet uses rules along these lines: Depending on your required accuracy of the output, the outline above might be too coarse grained, but a few more templates and predicates should narrow it down sufficiently. relaxng.org has links to tools that can perform the simplification step (e.g. rng2srng). Cheers, David Dave Pawson wrote: > Analysing a schema is something I've now wanted to do for 3 different > reasons, and I've a feeling that the stylesheet to do it is quite hairy. > > Psst. Have a look at the way they 'drop' a pair of tags on a highlighted > block of text! Delightful IMHO. I've not seen that since I saw > some dedicated markup software at Xerox! > > regards DaveP > > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Tue May 4 00:22:35 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i43HMX7D022450 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 00:22:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C3325E521; Mon, 3 May 2004 18:21:33 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040503182010.027a5af0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:21:26 +0100 To: David Rosenborg , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rng analysis In-Reply-To: <40967176.8050908@pantor.com> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040501122617.0275f040@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <40967176.8050908@pantor.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 17:22:36 -0000 At 17:21 03/05/2004, David Rosenborg wrote: >Hi Dave, > >Have you tried using a simplified rng schema as input to your stylesheet? ? What's the definition of 'simplified' please? >If not, you could try it, it will make things a lot easier. I've used this >method >to successfully generate and >declarations from rng schemas. > >The stylesheet uses rules along these lines: > > > > > >Depending on your required accuracy of the output, the outline above might >be too coarse grained, but a few more templates and predicates should >narrow it down sufficiently. > >relaxng.org has links to tools that can perform the simplification step >(e.g. rng2srng). Mmm. Not seen that David. Thanks, I'll take a look. What's its purpose? regards DaveP From bob@objfac.com Tue May 4 01:01:31 2004 Received: from plunder.dreamhost.com (postfix@plunder.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i43I1V8E027684 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 01:01:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by plunder.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D408863FF; Mon, 3 May 2004 11:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <409688FB.2050207@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 13:01:31 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rng analysis References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040501122617.0275f040@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <40967176.8050908@pantor.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040503182010.027a5af0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040503182010.027a5af0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:01:32 -0000 Dave Pawson wrote: > At 17:21 03/05/2004, David Rosenborg wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> Have you tried using a simplified rng schema as input to your stylesheet? > > > ? What's the definition of 'simplified' please? It's a schema that has been through Simplification (section 4 of the spec). Fewer variations to deal with. Bob Foster From darolst@pantor.com Tue May 4 01:03:51 2004 Received: from mail.gbg.bostream.net (mail.gbg.bostream.net [81.26.226.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i43I3oOt027982 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 01:03:51 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [217.215.95.162] (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.gbg.bostream.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43I3noN001723 for ; Mon, 3 May 2004 20:03:50 +0200 Message-ID: <40968983.8040102@pantor.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 20:03:47 +0200 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] rng analysis References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040430184157.0279b078@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <4093195A.1090601@objfac.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040501122617.0275f040@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <40967176.8050908@pantor.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040503182010.027a5af0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040503182010.027a5af0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:03:52 -0000 Dave Pawson wrote: > ? What's the definition of 'simplified' please? > Simplification is a transformation defined in the RELAX NG specification: http://relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html#simplification The simple syntax (not to be confused with the compact syntax) is a subset of the full syntax which you normally author schemas in. The semantics of RELAX NG validation are entirely described in terms of the simple syntax. Simply put, the simplification transformation flattens a schema into a more DTD like structure where the only remaining top level constructs are definitions containing a single element pattern. Additionally, there is a single start pattern. All other named patterns, includes, overrides, combination attributes and nested grammars go away. Also, inherited attributes are resolved so you don't have to look upwards to determine the value of for example a ns attribute. So, if you want to process a schema and don't care how the originial schema was structured and modularized, the simplified version is just much simpler to use. >> relaxng.org has links to tools that can perform the simplification >> step (e.g. rng2srng). > > Mmm. Not seen that David. > Thanks, I'll take a look. > What's its purpose? rng2srng is a tool which will perform the simplification transformation described above. Cheers, David From Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au Tue May 4 09:28:21 2004 Received: from mail2.sen-net.net (mail2.sen-net.net [144.140.254.12]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i442SIQu093694 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 09:28:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from vg-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (vg-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.159.200]) by mail2.sen-net.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i442SBk9047713 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 12:28:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au (cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au [161.117.168.23]) by vg-net-01.pacificaccess.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i442SBG6074556 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 12:28:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from Ben.Hutchison@sensis.com.au) Received: from cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au ([161.117.168.23]) by cw-exg-hub01 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 04 May 2004 12:28:09 +1000 Received: by cw-exg-hub01.pacificaccess.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 4 May 2004 12:28:08 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Hutchison, Ben" To: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:28:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4317F.6E220F30" Subject: [relaxng-user] E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains "attribute" again... X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 02:28:22 -0000 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4317F.6E220F30 Content-Type: text/plain I have some further questions related to the issues I had last week in a thread "Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar". I have read 7.1.2 of the spec and now appreciate the above pattern is forbidden. However, what I have not found is any examples showing alternatives approaches where you do need to specify that attributes be present on members of a repeated subgroup. Bob Foster's suggested fix to my original schema is shown below. Note that the NamedElementAttributes are specified for ConfigGroups. I also require a name attribute to be present for all elements in the ConfigValue group as well, but when I include this it becomes an illegal grammar. At the same time, I don't want a top-level blanket requirement of a name attribute for every element in the grammar, because eg array elements are not named. Does anyone have a reliable approach or "algorithm" for specifying attributes in these sorts of situations? Regards Ben namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } NamedElementAttributes = attribute name { text }, attribute platform { text }? StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } PrimitiveValue = (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { ConfigGroupEntry*, NamedElementAttributes } www.sensis.com.au A leading Australian advertising, information and directories business. www.yellowpages.com.au www.whitepages.com.au www.citysearch.com.au www.whereis.com.au www.telstra.com.au This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 9201 4888] ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4317F.6E220F30 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains= "attribute" again...

I have some further questions related to the issues I had= last week in a thread "Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC= grammar".

I have read 7.1.2 of the spec and now appreciate the= above pattern is forbidden. However, what I have not found is any examples= showing alternatives approaches where you do need to specify that= attributes be present on members of a repeated subgroup.

Bob Foster's suggested fix to my original schema is shown= below. Note that the NamedElementAttributes are specified for= ConfigGroups. I also require a name attribute to be present for all= elements in the ConfigValue group as well, but when I include this it= becomes an illegal grammar. At the same time, I don't want a top-level= blanket requirement of a name attribute for every element in the grammar,= because eg array elements are not named.

Does anyone have a reliable approach or "algorithm" for= specifying attributes in these sorts of situations?
Regards
Ben

namespace rng =3D "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"
datatypes xsd =3D "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes"

start =3D element ConfigRoot  { ConfigGroup*= }

NamedElementAttributes =3D
    attribute name { text },
    attribute platform { text }?

StringValue =3D element StringValue { xsd:string }
IntValue =3D element IntValue { xsd:integer }
FloatValue =3D element FloatValue { xsd:float }
BooleanValue =3D element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean }= PrimitiveValue =3D (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue |= BooleanValue)

Map =3D element Map { (MapEntry)* }
MapEntry =3D element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue }
Array =3D element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* }

ConfigValue =3D  ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array= )

ConfigGroupEntry =3D (ConfigGroup | = ConfigValue)

ConfigGroup =3D  element ConfigGroup {
    ConfigGroupEntry*,
    NamedElementAttributes
} 

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information=20
and directories business.=20

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
www.telstra.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the=
 recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss=
 and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with,=
 disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender=
 immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone=
 on [+61 3 9201 4888]
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4317F.6E220F30-- From lists@jeffrafter.com Tue May 4 09:47:17 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i442lGE1096076 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 09:47:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Mon, 03 May 2004 19:47:11 -0700 Message-ID: <06ac01c43182$18f07da0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Bob Foster" References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com><20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <02f601c42d61$13f18710$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <40908F7F.50800@objfac.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 19:47:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 02:47:18 -0000 Thanks so much for the comments Bob, I have tried to answer inline. Obviously I am still confused a bit... : ) > I don't see any way a comment could jump into the middle of > documentation, which is a named terminal, which is a token. Okay, this makes sense-- I think that I was getting confused by the grammar. Specifically, I was getting confused by documentationLineContent in the branch: [^&newline; #]x restOfLiney I don't really understand what the "#" is doing in there. My interpretation was that this was there to forbid additional "#" after the start of content. But this must be wrong because XMLDistilled and Jing accept it. > > For that matter, is: > > > > # Comment # Comment > > > > allowable? Again it seems to me that A.2 says it is not. But Jing and > > XMLDistilled accept it. > > Perhaps you should say why you think A.2 says it is not. Comments start > with # and continue to the end of the line. If a succeeding # is on the > same line (and not immediately following) why would it be treated specially? Again, this is my confusion probably. The branches of the serparator production are confusing me this time. separator returns Void ::= [ &newline;] | "#" [^&newline; #] restOfLine | "#" I read this as saying: A separator may consist of #9, #A, #20, NEWLINE, or it may have a comment, which can either be "#" followed by not NEWLINE, #A, or "#", then the rest of the line or a "#" by itself (presumably this could only happen at the end of the document, otherwsie there would be a NEWLINE to end it?) I could also add that I am slightly confused by the additional [^Chars] productions. Does this mean that those chars, if encountered, end the production? Or that they may not appear in that position (or both?). At this point, I have a custom parser written which can decode and tokenize RNC (checking for errors and reporting them if encountered). Once I fix these tokenization questions I can move on to the conversion to RNG (which is my near term goal). Ultimately I _hope_ to release this as either public domain or GPL with Library exception (I am still trying to figure out the licensing)-- both in C# and VB (so that it can be used with VBRELAXNG.DLL). Thanks again, Jeff Rafter From bob@objfac.com Tue May 4 10:17:47 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i443HlM4099966 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 10:17:47 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E5414969B; Mon, 3 May 2004 20:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40970B5E.30000@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 22:17:50 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hutchison, Ben" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains "attribute" again... References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:17:47 -0000 Hutchison, Ben wrote: > I have some further questions related to the issues I had last week in a > thread "Jing & Trang errors when processing RNC grammar". > > I have read 7.1.2 of the spec and now appreciate the above pattern is > forbidden. However, what I have not found is any examples showing > alternatives approaches where you do need to specify that attributes be > present on members of a repeated subgroup. Attributes aren't present on members of a repeated subgroup, attributes are present in an element. > Bob Foster's suggested fix to my original schema is shown below. Note > that the NamedElementAttributes are specified for ConfigGroups. I also > require a name attribute to be present for all elements in the > ConfigValue group as well, but when I include this it becomes an illegal > grammar. At the same time, I don't want a top-level blanket requirement > of a name attribute for every element in the grammar, because eg array > elements are not named. You mean that you want NamedElementAttributes present in the StringValue, IntValue, FloatValue, BooleanValue, Map and Array elements? Add it to the definitions of these elements. > Does anyone have a reliable approach or "algorithm" for specifying > attributes in these sorts of situations? Write out what you mean. Then factor, if possible. Bob Foster > Regards > Ben > > namespace rng = "http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" > datatypes xsd = "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes" > > start = element ConfigRoot { ConfigGroup* } > > NamedElementAttributes = > attribute name { text }, > attribute platform { text }? > > StringValue = element StringValue { xsd:string } > IntValue = element IntValue { xsd:integer } > FloatValue = element FloatValue { xsd:float } > BooleanValue = element BooleanValue { xsd:boolean } PrimitiveValue = > (StringValue | IntValue | FloatValue | BooleanValue) > > Map = element Map { (MapEntry)* } > MapEntry = element MapEntry { PrimitiveValue } > Array = element Array { (PrimitiveValue)* } > > ConfigValue = ( PrimitiveValue | Map | Array ) > > ConfigGroupEntry = (ConfigGroup | ConfigValue) > > ConfigGroup = element ConfigGroup { > ConfigGroupEntry*, > NamedElementAttributes > } From bob@objfac.com Tue May 4 10:58:16 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i443wFgD005513 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 10:58:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977F8149693; Mon, 3 May 2004 20:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <409714DC.5070809@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 22:58:20 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Rafter Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com><20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <02f601c42d61$13f18710$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <40908F7F.50800@objfac.com> <06ac01c43182$18f07da0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> In-Reply-To: <06ac01c43182$18f07da0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:58:16 -0000 Jeff Rafter wrote: > Thanks so much for the comments Bob, I have tried to answer inline. > Obviously I am still confused a bit... : ) > >>I don't see any way a comment could jump into the middle of >>documentation, which is a named terminal, which is a token. > > Okay, this makes sense-- I think that I was getting confused by the grammar. > Specifically, I was getting confused by documentationLineContent in the > branch: > > [^&newline; #]x restOfLiney > > I don't really understand what the "#" is doing in there. My interpretation > was that this was there to forbid additional "#" after the start of content. > But this must be wrong because XMLDistilled and Jing accept it. You have to look at the whole documentationLineContent production. The # is not allowed in the alternative you quote to distinguish it from the | "#" documentationLineContent alternative. If it weren't there, any documentationLine that began with three ### characters would match both alternatives, and the grammar would be ambiguous. > > >>>For that matter, is: >>> >>># Comment # Comment >>> >>>allowable? Again it seems to me that A.2 says it is not. But Jing and >>>XMLDistilled accept it. >> >>Perhaps you should say why you think A.2 says it is not. Comments start >>with # and continue to the end of the line. If a succeeding # is on the >>same line (and not immediately following) why would it be treated > > specially? > > Again, this is my confusion probably. The branches of the serparator > production are confusing me this time. > > separator returns Void ::= > [ &newline;] > | "#" [^&newline; #] restOfLine > | "#" > > I read this as saying: A separator may consist of #9, #A, #20, NEWLINE, or > it may have a comment, which can either be "#" followed by not NEWLINE, #A, > or "#", then the rest of the line or a "#" by itself (presumably this could > only happen at the end of the document, otherwsie there would be a NEWLINE > to end it?) Yes, that's how I read it, too. The second alternative distinguishes a separator from a documentationLine. > I could also add that I am slightly confused by the additional [^Chars] > productions. Does this mean that those chars, if encountered, end the > production? Or that they may not appear in that position (or both?). None of the above. E.g., [^"&newline;] means it matches any character except " or &newline;. Bob Foster > > At this point, I have a custom parser written which can decode and tokenize > RNC (checking for errors and reporting them if encountered). Once I fix > these tokenization questions I can move on to the conversion to RNG (which > is my near term goal). Ultimately I _hope_ to release this as either public > domain or GPL with Library exception (I am still trying to figure out the > licensing)-- both in C# and VB (so that it can be used with VBRELAXNG.DLL). > > > Thanks again, > Jeff Rafter > > From lists@jeffrafter.com Tue May 4 11:39:55 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i444dspb010603 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 11:39:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Mon, 03 May 2004 21:39:50 -0700 Message-ID: <06ba01c43191$d560db10$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Bob Foster" References: <408F3A88.8040302@objfac.com><20040428174331.7452.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <02a001c42d4e$468ea8f0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <02f601c42d61$13f18710$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <40908F7F.50800@objfac.com> <06ac01c43182$18f07da0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <409714DC.5070809@objfac.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Documentation tokenization Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 21:35:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 04:39:56 -0000 Bob, you are my hero : ) > > I could also add that I am slightly confused by the additional [^Chars] > > productions. Does this mean that those chars, if encountered, end the > > production? Or that they may not appear in that position (or both?). > > None of the above. E.g., [^"&newline;] means it matches any character > except " or &newline;. I get it I think. So for example, in the separator production we see: | "#" [^&newline; #] restOfLine I now understand the "#" in there, Originally I thought &newline; was redundant because restOfLine doesn't allow these characters anyway. I was thinking the following be equivalent: | "#" [^#] restOfLine But now, based on what you said I see that these are *not* equivalent. The plain text translation of this would be, "...or you can have a "#" character. If you have a "#" character it can be followed by _any_ character except #, then it will be followed by the rest of the line." Of course, _any_ character would include the newline and #xA, which would be erroneous if followed by the rest of line. This is why you need to include those characters in the exception. This all now seems plainly obvious, and I include it here mainly for the sake of the archives. But for some reason I couldn't make it click without your explanation. I don't know if this can be clarified with an example in the specification at some point (or if it even needs to be). Thanks again, Jeff Rafter From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue May 4 16:23:32 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i449NVd7045222 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 16:23:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i449NUvp010725 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 10:23:30 +0100 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 10689-01-4 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 10:23:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i449Lufx010495 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 10:21:56 +0100 Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 4 May 2004 10:21:51 +0100 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F06FFDD4A@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] rng analysis Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:21:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 09:23:32 -0000 From: David Rosenborg > ? What's the definition of 'simplified' please? > Simplification is a transformation defined in the RELAX NG specification: http://relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html#simplification The simple syntax (not to be confused with the compact syntax) is a subset of the full syntax which you normally author schemas in. Thanks David / Bob. Looks about right for this task. regards DaveP. ** snip here ** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue May 4 22:46:08 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i44Fk8Y9094541 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 22:46:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11919 for ; Tue, 4 May 2004 11:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 4 May 2004 11:46:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:46:06 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] E "oneOrMore" contains "group" contains "attribute" again... Message-ID: <20040504154606.GG2528@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:46:08 -0000 Hutchison, Ben scripsit: > Bob Foster's suggested fix to my original schema is shown below. Note that > the NamedElementAttributes are specified for ConfigGroups. I also require a > name attribute to be present for all elements in the ConfigValue group as > well, but when I include this it becomes an illegal grammar. At the same > time, I don't want a top-level blanket requirement of a name attribute for > every element in the grammar, because eg array elements are not named. Ah, the light dawns at last. Are you under the impression that "(PrimitiveValue | Map | Array), NamedElementAttributes" means that each of the elements matching the parenthesized pattern must have the NamedElementAttributes? Because that's not what you have specified. The expression instead means "the (partial) content model consisting of a child element matching PrimitiveValue or Map or Array, plus some attributes matching NamedElementAttributes". So when you use it (via ConfigGroupEntry) in the content model of the ConfigGroup element, you are specifying the attributes of a ConfigGroup element, not of its children. And you are specifying the attributes repeatedly (which is what is not allowed) via the * on the reference to ConfigGroupEntry, not to mention that they are already redundantly specified directly in ConfigGroup's content model. You must specify, for each element pattern, whether NamedElementAttributes appears in its content model or not. -- "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall jcowan@reutershealth.com have neither the Ring nor me!" --Frodo http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed May 5 04:31:38 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i44LVcjr043156 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 04:31:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA17432; Tue, 4 May 2004 17:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 4 May 2004 17:27:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 17:27:49 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040504212749.GA6783@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E26E9@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E26E9@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 21:31:39 -0000 David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk scripsit: > Would you put a little context around this please John? > Or a uri where I might read about it? The context is that it would be nice to have a better regular expression facility than the WXS pattern facet, which uses quite limited regular expressions, written in a messy hard-to-use code that has nothing to do with the rest of WXS *or* RNG, and has no facility for building up patterns from pieces of other patterns. The design I posted is: 1) cleanly embeddable into RNG, sharing its naming conventions when possible 2) uses elements in the rx: namespace to express the components of regular expressions 3) allows references with rx:ref to sub-regexes defined within ordinary rng:define elements. 4) implementable using an ordinary Posix regex engine -- LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan thou hast given away: jcowan@reutershealth.com That thou wast born with. http://www.reutershealth.com From dvd@davidashen.net Wed May 5 10:50:15 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i453oBms088985 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 10:50:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i453ilem099452 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 08:44:47 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i453iloh099451 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 5 May 2004 08:44:47 +0500 (AMST) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:44:47 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405050344.i453iloh099451@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040504212749.GA6783@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 03:50:15 -0000 > > The design I posted is: > > 1) cleanly embeddable into RNG, sharing its naming conventions when possible > 2) uses elements in the rx: namespace to express the components of > regular expressions > 3) allows references with rx:ref to sub-regexes defined within > ordinary rng:define elements. > 4) implementable using an ordinary Posix regex engine > What would be the compact syntax for rx:? From bob@objfac.com Wed May 5 10:57:04 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i453v4Q1089859 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 10:57:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4860B14969D; Tue, 4 May 2004 20:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40986615.8030505@objfac.com> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 22:57:09 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jcowan@reutershealth.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E26E9@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20040504212749.GA6783@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20040504212749.GA6783@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 03:57:05 -0000 jcowan@reutershealth.com wrote: > ...it would be nice to have a better regular expression > facility than the WXS pattern facet, which uses quite limited regular > expressions, written in a messy hard-to-use code that has nothing to > do with the rest of WXS *or* RNG, and has no facility for building up > patterns from pieces of other patterns. > > The design I posted is: > > 1) cleanly embeddable into RNG, sharing its naming conventions when possible > 2) uses elements in the rx: namespace to express the components of > regular expressions > 3) allows references with rx:ref to sub-regexes defined within > ordinary rng:define elements. > 4) implementable using an ordinary Posix regex engine Yes, this would be a good thing, and my comment is in no way intended as a criticism, but why stop at regex? Why not use the more powerfully expressive Parsing Expression Grammars (PEG)? This would allow you to describe mini-languages as powerful as XPath, regex itself, XQuery, structured data formats, even the compact syntax. Another plus would be that PEG grammars are a good deal easier to read (and with suitable training, write) than regexen. Just a thought. Bob Foster From bob@objfac.com Wed May 5 11:05:37 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4545auK091001 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 11:05:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B44149698; Tue, 4 May 2004 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40986816.6020101@objfac.com> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 23:05:42 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG References: <200405050344.i453iloh099451@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200405050344.i453iloh099451@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:05:38 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > What would be the compact syntax for rx:? [ rx:... Compact syntax allows foreign element and attribute escapes. Down the road, the rx: extension or something like it might be incorporated into a future version of RELAX NG. Proposing it as a compatible extension of the current RELAX NG is, I believe, the recommended path for making it so. But let's assume you know all that and are really asking whether this will be impossibly clumsy to use with the compact syntax? I don't know, and it's a good question (though perhaps if it were clumsy, that would be more a criticism of compact syntax than rx:). Could John or someone cook an example in both XML and compact syntax so people can get the flavor of it? I'd do it myself but my brain is on haitus. Bob Foster From dvd@davidashen.net Wed May 5 11:35:39 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i454ZZGJ094595 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 11:35:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i454UBem099600 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 09:30:11 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i454UBsG099599 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 5 May 2004 09:30:11 +0500 (AMST) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:30:11 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <40986816.6020101@objfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:35:39 -0000 > David Tolpin wrote: > > What would be the compact syntax for rx:? > > [ rx:... > > But let's assume you know all that and are really asking whether this > will be impossibly clumsy to use with the compact syntax? I don't know, > and it's a good question (though perhaps if it were clumsy, that would > be more a criticism of compact syntax than rx:). Could John or someone > cook an example in both XML and compact syntax so people can get the > flavor of it? I'd do it myself but my brain is on haitus. I am asking because I have a feeling that the string-based (as opposed to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular expression from parts. RNV provides this function - through dsl datatypelibrary and s-pattern facet. I had written about it on xml-dev, and http://ftp.davidashen.net/PreTI/RNV/readme.txt tells about it too (I believe) near the bottom of the page -- search for s-pattern . I think that use of XML syntax for string templates (and regular expressions are string templates) is plain wrong. XML regular expressions are good or XML data, and the regular expressions is Relax NG itself, and the data is XML. Strings are not trees. Templates should match instances in structure. Instances regular expressions are matched against are strings; templates are pretty good as strings too. Just make them structured, that is, composable. David Tolpin From bob@objfac.com Wed May 5 13:36:19 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i456aJPI009781 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 13:36:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8016D149693; Tue, 4 May 2004 23:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40988B62.3020209@objfac.com> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 01:36:18 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG References: <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 06:36:21 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > I am asking because I have a feeling that the string-based (as opposed > to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) > is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, > and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular > expression from parts. > > RNV provides this function - through dsl datatypelibrary and s-pattern > facet. I had written about it on xml-dev, and http://ftp.davidashen.net/PreTI/RNV/readme.txt > tells about it too (I believe) near the bottom of the page -- search for > s-pattern . Ok. I've looked at this before, but I don't know what it is. What class of grammars do these patterns accept? Does your parser guarantee to handle any pattern that can be written this way? > I think that use of XML syntax for string templates (and regular expressions > are string templates) is plain wrong. XML regular expressions are good > or XML data, and the regular expressions is Relax NG itself, and the > data is XML. > > Strings are not trees. Templates should match instances in structure. > Instances regular expressions are matched against are strings; templates > are pretty good as strings too. Just make them structured, that is, > composable. I'm sorry (remember, brain on haitus) but I don't understand what you are saying. This: s-pattern=""" comment = "\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\)" atom = "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" atoms = atom "(\." atom ")*" person = "\"([^\"\\]|\\.)*\"" location = "\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\]" local-part = "(" atom "|" person ")" domain = "(" atoms "|" location ")" start = "(" comment " )?" local-part "@" domain "( " comment ")?" """ is not RELAX NG itself. At a glance, it's a context-free grammar. Hence my questions above. Bob Foster From dvd@davidashen.net Wed May 5 14:29:27 2004 Received: from vagabond.davidashen.net (162-dsl-customer.xter.net [83.217.229.162] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i457TPKx015582 for ; Wed, 5 May 2004 14:29:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from dvd by vagabond.davidashen.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BLGvO-0000H8-00; Wed, 05 May 2004 12:34:38 +0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <40988B62.3020209@objfac.com> Message-Id: From: David Tolpin Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:34:38 +0500 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:29:29 -0000 > > > > RNV provides this function - through dsl datatypelibrary and s-pattern > > facet. I had written about it on xml-dev, and http://ftp.davidashen.net/PreTI/RNV/readme.txt > > tells about it too (I believe) near the bottom of the page -- search for > > s-pattern . > > Ok. I've looked at this before, but I don't know what it is. What class > of grammars do these patterns accept? Does your parser guarantee to > handle any pattern that can be written this way? Regular grammars. Grammars which are not regular are not accepted by the parser, and the parser issues an error message stating where exactly non-regularity happens. In a similar way to Relax NG, which would syntactically allow non-regular grammars, but restrictions in 7.3, for example, restrict to the regular ones. > > > I think that use of XML syntax for string templates (and regular expressions > > are string templates) is plain wrong. XML regular expressions are good > > or XML data, and the regular expressions is Relax NG itself, and the > > data is XML. > > > > Strings are not trees. Templates should match instances in structure. > > Instances regular expressions are matched against are strings; templates > > are pretty good as strings too. Just make them structured, that is, > > composable. > > I'm sorry (remember, brain on haitus) but I don't understand what you > are saying. This: > > s-pattern=""" > comment = "\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\)" > atom = "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" > atoms = atom "(\." atom ")*" > person = "\"([^\"\\]|\\.)*\"" > location = "\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\]" > local-part = "(" atom "|" person ")" > domain = "(" atoms "|" location ")" > start = "(" comment " )?" local-part "@" domain "( " comment ")?" > """ > > is not RELAX NG itself. It is Relax NG. The whole thing is an attribute value, and the handling is provided by a Datatype Library, and the Datatype Library is specified in a conformant way. > At a glance, it's a context-free grammar. Hence > my questions above. A regular grammar is a context-free grammar. At a glance, this is both context-free and a regular grammar, since it only requires finite state automaton to parse. David Tolpin From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu May 6 02:10:17 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i45JAE0H005841 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 02:10:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05513; Wed, 5 May 2004 15:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 5 May 2004 15:10:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:10:11 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: Bob Foster Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040505191011.GE10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> <40988B62.3020209@objfac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40988B62.3020209@objfac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:10:18 -0000 Bob Foster scripsit: > I'm sorry (remember, brain on haitus) but I don't understand what you > are saying. This: > > s-pattern=""" > comment = "\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\)" > atom = "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" > atoms = atom "(\." atom ")*" > person = "\"([^\"\\]|\\.)*\"" > location = "\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\]" > local-part = "(" atom "|" person ")" > domain = "(" atoms "|" location ")" > start = "(" comment " )?" local-part "@" domain "( " comment ")?" > """ > > is not RELAX NG itself. At a glance, it's a context-free grammar. Hence > my questions above. It's not a CFG because recursion is forbidden. The whole thing can be re-expressed as a single string, at the cost of perspicacity. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan O beautiful for patriot's dream that sees beyond the years Thine alabaster cities gleam undimmed by human tears! America! America! God mend thine every flaw, Confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law! -- one of the verses not usually taught in U.S. schools From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu May 6 02:12:46 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i45JCkpg006139 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 02:12:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05478; Wed, 5 May 2004 15:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 5 May 2004 15:08:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:08:54 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <40986816.6020101@objfac.com> <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:12:46 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > I am asking because I have a feeling that the string-based (as opposed > to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) > is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, > and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular > expression from parts. It's neither easy to write nor convenient to use, it's just that we're all so used to it. It optimizes the wrong things ("[A-Z]" rather than "[:ucalpha:]"), it has many subtly incompatible flavors, it is unspeakably rococo, and it does not scale. It is an attempt to avoid quoting literals, and it suffers from the same problems that all such attempts suffer from. I admit that to make my design really usable with the compact mode, it will need an extension to the compact-mode translator: the bracket syntax is not likely to cut it. > I think that use of XML syntax for string templates (and regular expressions > are string templates) is plain wrong. No, they aren't string templates. They degenerate to string templates. That's quite different. > Strings are not trees. Regular expressions *are* trees: they are compositions of sequence, choice, and zeroOrOne. Everything else is just syntactic sugar. (Note that I do not provide for backreferences, a la \1, \2, ..., which make the regular expressions no longer regular.) -- Go, and never darken my towels again! John Cowan --Rufus T. Firefly www.ccil.org/~cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Thu May 6 14:23:04 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i467N0SF096577 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 14:23:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i467HTem058244 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 12:17:29 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i467HTOr058243 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 12:17:29 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405060717.i467HTOr058243@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:17:29 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Imlementing regular expression X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:23:04 -0000 John, in a previous post, you mentioned that your proposal makes implementation of regular expressions easier because they can just use existing Posix engines. I am not sure it is important, or even usable, because Posix regexps are not Unicode-aware, and because implementing full XML Schema regular expressions took just one evening (and under one thousand lines in C). Re-writing the w3c schema regexp library in Scheme from scratch took another evening. C implementation is much (the more to match, the better) faster than Posix regexp implementations available for me. Scheme implementation is slower than C (with SCM), but still almost as fast as calling Posix C regexp library from Scheme code. That is, implementing W3C Schema regular expressions is an easy and simple job, which due to a number of causes, results in a faster, more compact and better maintainable code, suited for processing of Unicode. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Thu May 6 14:23:34 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i467NVLv096657 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 14:23:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i467Hxem058266 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 12:17:59 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i467HxqQ058265 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 12:17:59 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405060717.i467HxqQ058265@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:17:59 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:23:34 -0000 > > I am asking because I have a feeling that the string-based (as opposed > > to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) > > is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, > > and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular > > expression from parts. > > It's neither easy to write nor convenient to use, it's just that we're all > so used to it. It optimizes the wrong things ("[A-Z]" rather than "[:ucalpha:]"), I don't think so. I am confident that one of the most significant benefits we get from Unicode is that we can write A-Z instead of [:ascalpha:] (and not ucalpha, as these are different things). Letters and numbers are ordered and at fixed places. A-Z is always ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, it was not so in the past, and I am glad it is now. For ucalpha there is a different optimization in XML Schema Regular Expressions (used with Relax NG), namely \p{L} . Not more cryptic than :ucalpha:, and directly refers to Unicode character classes -- much easier for those who knows what they are. > > > Strings are not trees. > > Regular expressions *are* trees: they are compositions of sequence, choice, > and zeroOrOne. Everything else is just syntactic sugar. (Note that I > do not provide for backreferences, a la \1, \2, ..., which make the regular > expressions no longer regular.) 1) Strings are not trees. XML documents are trees. That's why regular expressions (which can be represented in either tree-like (XML) form or in the form of a sequence of instructions (traditional string regular expressions)) should provide - XML structured representation (or compact but still structured tree-like) for XML documents in whole - string representation to match strings. One can propose XML representation of string regular expressions to ease processing, but as well as the XML syntax is the base syntax for XML regular expressions, and the compact syntax is designed to make life easier in certain environment, string syntax for string regular expressions is the base syntax, and XML syntax can be provided as a convenience, but must map to the string syntax bidirectionally. 2) XML Schema Regular expressions do not have back-references. From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu May 6 22:18:43 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46FIhft052966 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:18:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA21228; Thu, 6 May 2004 11:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 6 May 2004 11:14:23 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:14:23 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040506151423.GA17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200405060711.i467BoGF058180@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405060711.i467BoGF058180@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:18:44 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > I don't think so. I am confident that one of the most significant > benefits we get from Unicode is that we can write A-Z instead of [:ascalpha:] > (and not ucalpha, as these are different things). The difficulty is that most people do write [A-Z], seduced by the English-Only side of the Force, rather than [:ucalpha:], which more usually represents what they actually want (as opposed to what they believe they want). > are ordered and at fixed places. A-Z is always ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, > it was not so in the past, and I am glad it is now. Well, it is so if the locale is Unicode. > 1) Strings are not trees. XML documents are trees. That's why > regular expressions (which can be represented in either tree-like > (XML) form or in the form of a sequence of instructions (traditional > string regular expressions)) should provide > > - XML structured representation (or compact but still structured tree-like) > for XML documents in whole > - string representation to match strings. We don't provide a string-regex-ish formulation for XML, though. > One can propose XML representation of string regular expressions > to ease processing, but as well as the XML syntax is the base syntax > for XML regular expressions, and the compact syntax is designed to > make life easier in certain environment, string syntax for string > regular expressions is the base syntax, and XML syntax can be > provided as a convenience, but must map to the string syntax > bidirectionally. I agree about the bidirectional mapping, but I think using string syntax as the base regex syntax is a hangover from the past that ought to be discarded. -- The man that wanders far jcowan@reutershealth.com from the walking tree http://www.reutershealth.com --first line of a non-existent poem by: John Cowan From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu May 6 22:21:52 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46FLps0053385 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:21:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA21290; Thu, 6 May 2004 11:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 6 May 2004 11:18:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:18:03 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Imlementing regular expression Message-ID: <20040506151803.GB17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200405060717.i467HTOr058243@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405060717.i467HTOr058243@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:21:52 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > I am not sure it is important, or even usable, > because Posix regexps are not Unicode-aware, > and because implementing full XML Schema regular expressions > took just one evening (and under one thousand lines in C). Hmm. DFA or NFA? One advantage of not allowing extensions to regularity is that the compactness and speed of a DFA becomes available. W3C Schema regexes are broken in a number of ways: they are massively incomplete, they provide facilities (like matching by block name) that look useful but are actually very dangerous -- e.g. p{IsSinhalese} does not match all characters required for Sinhalese text -- and generally should be replaced by something more general and useful for RNG purposes. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com jcowan@reutershealth.com Mr. Henry James writes fiction as if it were a painful duty. --Oscar Wilde From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Fri May 7 00:18:24 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HINVV069310 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:18:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C342B253C16; Thu, 6 May 2004 18:18:19 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040506181602.026bcd18@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:18:10 +0100 To: jcowan@reutershealth.com, David Tolpin From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <40986816.6020101@objfac.com> <200405050430.i454UBsG099599@adat.davidashen.net> <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:18:24 -0000 At 20:08 05/05/2004, jcowan@reutershealth.com wrote: >David Tolpin scripsit: > > > I am asking because I have a feeling that the string-based (as opposed > > to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) > > is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, > > and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular > > expression from parts. > >It's neither easy to write nor convenient to use, it's just that we're all >so used to it. Would we expect people 'new' to regex to learn it from relax-ng? My guess would be that unless you knew (something) of it, you'd steer well clear of it, but it is useful, if inconvenient, hard etc. Any attempt to clarify/group the regex line noise would help IMHO. regards DaveP From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 00:21:52 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HLnWr069799 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:21:50 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46HGEem061228 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:16:14 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46HGED0061227 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:16:14 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061716.i46HGED0061227@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Imlementing regular expression To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:16:14 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:21:52 -0000 > > I am not sure it is important, or even usable, > > because Posix regexps are not Unicode-aware, > > and because implementing full XML Schema regular expressions > > took just one evening (and under one thousand lines in C). > > Hmm. DFA or NFA? One advantage of not allowing extensions to regularity > is that the compactness and speed of a DFA becomes available. Lazy building of NFA. Derivative(delta)-based, similar to that of Jing for RelaxNG. From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 00:27:47 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HRi2i070682 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:27:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46HM9em061270 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:22:09 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46HM9m4061269 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:22:09 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061722.i46HM9m4061269@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040506181602.026bcd18@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:22:09 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:27:49 -0000 > > > to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) > > > is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, > > > and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular > > > expression from parts. > > > >It's neither easy to write nor convenient to use, it's just that we're all > >so used to it. > > Would we expect people 'new' to regex to learn it from relax-ng? > My guess would be that unless you knew (something) of it, you'd > steer well clear of it, but it is useful, if inconvenient, hard etc. > Any attempt to clarify/group the regex line noise would help IMHO. > As funny as it is, I think that the accepted syntax for regular expressions is exceptionally elegant, and tools success is a proof of it. There were (and are) other approaches for string pattern matches, but unix/posix regexps are very good. They do solve the problem they are designed for -- efficient expression of string templates. XML regexps don't even come close -- all attempts to express regexps in XML (I've seen so far) are the real line noise, not string regexps. The learning curve is steep, but at the top of the hill you get a tool which is pleasant to use and fun to debug. As opposite to XML markup. David From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 00:33:13 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HXAr3071497 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:33:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46HRZem061324 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:27:35 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46HRZTS061323 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:27:35 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061727.i46HRZTS061323@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040506151423.GA17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:27:35 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:33:13 -0000 > > are ordered and at fixed places. A-Z is always ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, > > it was not so in the past, and I am glad it is now. > > Well, it is so if the locale is Unicode. No. This is so always. Because the locale only matters when documents are read or written. When documents are processed (validated) or matched against Unicode regular expressions, the encoding is always Unicode. > > 1) Strings are not trees. XML documents are trees. That's why > > regular expressions (which can be represented in either tree-like > > (XML) form or in the form of a sequence of instructions (traditional > > string regular expressions)) should provide > > > > - XML structured representation (or compact but still structured tree-like) > > for XML documents in whole > > - string representation to match strings. > > We don't provide a string-regex-ish formulation for XML, though. That's what I am saying; exactly for the same matter there is no string-regex-ish formulation for XML, there shouldn't be xml-regex-ish formulation for strings. > > I agree about the bidirectional mapping, but I think using string > syntax as the base regex syntax is a hangover from the past that > ought to be discarded. > Is XML syntax for XML is a hangover from the past that ought to be discarded in favour of the compact syntax? David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Fri May 7 00:51:16 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HpGTi074039 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:51:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23533; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 6 May 2004 13:47:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:47:26 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040506174726.GP17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040506181602.026bcd18@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200405061722.i46HM9m4061269@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405061722.i46HM9m4061269@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i46HpGTi074039 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:51:17 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > As funny as it is, I think that the accepted syntax for regular > expressions is exceptionally elegant, and tools success is a proof > of it. There were (and are) other approaches for string pattern > matches, but unix/posix regexps are very good. Here's a fine example due to Jeffry Friedl: [\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|"[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*)*")[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:\.[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|"[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*)*")[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)*@[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:\.[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)*|(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|"[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*)*")[^()<>@,;:".\\\[\]\x80-\xff\000-\010\012-\037]*(?:(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)|"[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*)*")[^()<>@,;:".\\\[\]\x80-\xff\000-\010\012-\037]*)*<[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:@[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:\.[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)*(?:,[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*@[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:\.[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)*)*:[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)?(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|"[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*)*")[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\)Bˆ-AÕ)Bˆ-AÕ\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:\.[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|"[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015"]*)*")[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)*@[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:\.[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*(?:[^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff]+(?![^(\040)<>@,;:".\\\[\]\000-\037\x80-\xff])|\[(?:[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015\[\]]|\\[^\x80-\xff])*\])[\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\xff]|\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:\\[^\x80-\xff][^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\))[^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*)*\)[\040\t]*)*)*>) > They do solve the problem they are designed for -- efficient expression > of string templates. XML regexps don't even come close -- all attempts > to express regexps in XML (I've seen so far) are the real line noise, > not string regexps. In small and simple cases, yes. But the above? When I get a chance I'll rewrite this as XML. -- My confusion is rapidly waxing John Cowan For XML Schema's too taxing: jcowan@reutershealth.com I'd use DTDs http://www.reutershealth.com If they had local trees -- http://www.ccil.org/~cowan I think I best switch to RELAX NG. From jcowan@reutershealth.com Fri May 7 00:53:23 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HrNUv074338 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:53:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23565; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 6 May 2004 13:49:20 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:49:20 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040506174920.GQ17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040506151423.GA17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200405061727.i46HRZTS061323@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405061727.i46HRZTS061323@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:53:24 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > No. This is so always. Because the locale only matters when documents > are read or written. When documents are processed (validated) or > matched against Unicode regular expressions, the encoding is always > Unicode. In XML Schema regexes, yes; not in all tools using regexes today. > That's what I am saying; exactly for the same matter there is no > string-regex-ish formulation for XML, there shouldn't be xml-regex-ish > formulation for strings. Regular expressions aren't strings: they have nesting. > Is XML syntax for XML is a hangover from the past that ought to > be discarded in favour of the compact syntax? No. And I'd like to see a compact syntax for my rx: proposal, but based on its spirit, not a return to Posix (including WXS) style. -- John Cowan www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it capture. And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein. --Gospel of Tux From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 00:56:17 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46HuDtu074772 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:56:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46Hocem061467 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:50:38 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46Hoc60061466 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:50:38 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061750.i46Hoc60061466@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040506174726.GP17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:50:38 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:56:18 -0000 jcowan@reutershealth.com: [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > As funny as it is, I think that the accepted syntax for regular > > expressions is exceptionally elegant, and tools success is a proof > > of it. There were (and are) other approaches for string pattern > > matches, but unix/posix regexps are very good. > > Here's a fine example due to Jeffry Friedl: > > [\040\t]*(?:\([^\\\x80-\xff\n\015()]*(?:(?:\\[^\x80-\ This is just an example of bad use of regular expressions, nothing else. Besides, it is just one more proof that string regular expressions is a powerful tool, not every language can make a statement like this. > > not string regexps. > > In small and simple cases, yes. But the above? > > When I get a chance I'll rewrite this as XML. And in normal use of Unicode regexps, please. Let's which one will be shorter and easier to use. From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 00:57:57 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46Hvrcf074957 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:57:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46HqIem061502 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:52:18 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46HqI26061501 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 22:52:18 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061752.i46HqI26061501@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:52:18 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:57:57 -0000 > > No. This is so always. Because the locale only matters when documents > > are read or written. When documents are processed (validated) or > > matched against Unicode regular expressions, the encoding is always > > Unicode. > > In XML Schema regexes, yes; not in all tools using regexes today. We are discussing application of regular expressions to Relax NG validation, aren't we? > > > That's what I am saying; exactly for the same matter there is no > > string-regex-ish formulation for XML, there shouldn't be xml-regex-ish > > formulation for strings. > > Regular expressions aren't strings: they have nesting. Strings may have structure. A good example is text in human language. From jcowan@reutershealth.com Fri May 7 01:06:31 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46I6VsA076178 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 01:06:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23825; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 6 May 2004 14:02:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:02:41 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040506180241.GU17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040506174726.GP17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200405061750.i46Hoc60061466@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405061750.i46Hoc60061466@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:06:31 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > This is just an example of bad use of regular expressions, nothing > else. Not at all. It's a regex for matching RFC 822 valid email addresses. And of course I cheated: he built it up out of smaller pieces. The actual Perl code that does the work is at http://public.yahoo.com/~jfriedl/regex/email-opt.pl . > Besides, it is just one more proof that string regular expressions > is a powerful tool, not every language can make a statement like > this. But, of course, it's neither intelligible nor debuggable. > And in normal use of Unicode regexps, please. Let's which > one will be shorter and easier to use. The point is that string regexes are so difficult that we can't in practice make more than trivial use of them. That sacrifices their great power. -- There are three kinds of people in the world: John Cowan those who can count, http://www.reutershealth.com and those who can't. jcowan@reutershealth.com From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Fri May 7 01:10:11 2004 Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46IAAG1076646 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 01:10:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550FA2501C1; Thu, 6 May 2004 19:09:41 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040506184313.02728c88@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:09:31 +0100 To: David Tolpin , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <200405061722.i46HM9m4061269@adat.davidashen.net> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040506181602.026bcd18@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200405061722.i46HM9m4061269@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:10:11 -0000 At 18:22 06/05/2004, David Tolpin wrote: >As funny as it is, I think that the accepted syntax for regular >expressions is exceptionally elegant, and tools success is a proof >of it. There were (and are) other approaches for string pattern >matches, but unix/posix regexps are very good. I think it looks like line noise ! >They do solve the problem they are designed for -- efficient expression >of string templates. Yes, and very good they are too, at their designed job. >XML regexps don't even come close -- all attempts >to express regexps in XML (I've seen so far) are the real line noise, >not string regexps. > >The learning curve is steep, but at the top of the hill you get >a tool which is pleasant to use and fun to debug. As opposite to >XML markup. I've not used XML regexps so I can't compare. regards DaveP From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 01:11:11 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46IB7iB076781 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 01:11:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46I5Xem061591 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 23:05:33 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46I5XVf061590 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 23:05:33 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061805.i46I5XVf061590@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040506180241.GU17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:05:33 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:11:11 -0000 > > This is just an example of bad use of regular expressions, nothing > > else. > > Not at all. It's a regex for matching RFC 822 valid email > addresses. And of course I cheated: he built it up out of > smaller pieces. The actual Perl code that does the work is at > http://public.yahoo.com/~jfriedl/regex/email-opt.pl . Yes, I remember it. And a few months back, we had discussed the very same example, and this is not a Unicode regular expression, and this is not posix syntax; this is crappy perl extensions used inappropriately just to show that regexps can be long. A W3C XML Schema regexp for the very same production is 136 characters long. > > Besides, it is just one more proof that string regular expressions > > is a powerful tool, not every language can make a statement like > > this. > > But, of course, it's neither intelligible nor debuggable. As I've just said, it's an example specifically made to show that regular expressions can be written to become neither intelligible nor debuggable, the example above is of no practical use. It's just a joke. Or a poor taste. A normal regular expression for exactly the same domain is less than two lines. > > > And in normal use of Unicode regexps, please. Let's which > > one will be shorter and easier to use. > > The point is that string regexes are so difficult that we can't in > practice make more than trivial use of them. That sacrifices their > great power. > I used strings regular expressions in numerous non-trivial cases. Who are 'we'? How XMLizing helps use them? Examples, please. David From lists@jeffrafter.com Fri May 7 02:04:24 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46J4Kqx083759 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 02:04:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Thu, 06 May 2004 12:04:15 -0700 Message-ID: <099b01c4339c$ee3a2800$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:04:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] RNC test suite? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:04:24 -0000 I was curious if there was any publicly available RNC test suite / conformance suite? Thanks, Jeff Rafter From jcowan@reutershealth.com Fri May 7 02:16:58 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46JGvPn085620 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 02:16:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25030; Thu, 6 May 2004 15:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 6 May 2004 15:12:59 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:12:59 -0400 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-ID: <20040506191259.GC17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040506180241.GU17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200405061805.i46I5XVf061590@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200405061805.i46I5XVf061590@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:16:58 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > A W3C XML Schema regexp for the very same production is 136 > characters long. Show me, please. > How XMLizing helps use them? The advantages of HLL over plain machine code. -- All Norstrilians knew what laughter was: John Cowan it was "pleasurable corrigible malfunction". http://www.reutershealth.com --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrilia jcowan@reutershealth.com From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 02:24:55 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46JOqE5087537 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 02:24:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46JJHem062042 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:19:17 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46JJHPb062041 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 7 May 2004 00:19:17 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405061919.i46JJHPb062041@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040506191259.GC17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 00:19:17 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:24:56 -0000 jcowan@reutershealth.com: > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > A W3C XML Schema regexp for the very same production is 136 > > characters long. > > Show me, please. I did a few months ago on this list. And explained in detail. > > How XMLizing helps use them? > > The advantages of HLL over plain machine code. Advantage of XML over plain machine code is that XML is a complex machine code. Is it an advantage? From amyzing@talsever.org Fri May 7 03:44:40 2004 Received: from garthan.talsever.org (garthan.talsever.org [69.26.131.239]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46Kiesd099543 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 03:44:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from xerom.extensibility.com (unknown [63.86.210.252]) by garthan.talsever.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A4F56FB8; Thu, 6 May 2004 16:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:44:45 -0400 From: Amelia A Lewis To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-Id: <20040506164445.742d597c.amyzing@talsever.org> In-Reply-To: <200405061919.i46JJHPb062041@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040506191259.GC17738@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200405061919.i46JJHPb062041@adat.davidashen.net> Organization: The Mysthical World of Talsever! X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 20:44:40 -0000 On Fri, 7 May 2004 00:19:17 +0500 (AMST) David Tolpin wrote: > jcowan@reutershealth.com: > > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > > > A W3C XML Schema regexp for the very same production is 136 > > > characters long. > > > > Show me, please. > > I did a few months ago on this list. And explained in detail. Your example covered only a subset of the RFC822 address production. Jeffrey Friedl's covers all of it. Nor was his production intended to be "a joke" or an example of illegibility. He very carefully builds up to it, so that folks can be impressed at the fact that they can read it, using the techniques he's presented. That doesn't make it any less rococo. Regexes are wonderful, as John Cowan points out, for small applications, but the inability to break them into pieces and then put the pieces together, a facility that he's built into his alternative, makes learning to read complex ones (much less putting together complex ones that don't have hidden problems) enormously more difficult than it needs to be. The perl whitespace extensions alone are worth the price of entry for perl regexes. Using them, any expression can be reformatted into (nearly) digestible chunks and analyzed so. Amy! -- Amelia A. Lewis Architect/Principal Engineer TIBCO/Extensibility, Inc. alewis@tibco.com From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 03:50:47 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i46KoiL3000487 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 03:50:46 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i46Kj9em062653 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 01:45:09 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i46Kj92o062652 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 7 May 2004 01:45:09 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405062045.i46Kj92o062652@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040506164445.742d597c.amyzing@talsever.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:45:09 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 20:50:47 -0000 > > Nor was his production intended to be "a joke" or an example of > illegibility. He very carefully builds up to it, so that folks can be > impressed at the fact that they can read it, using the techniques he's > presented. It was simply ill-designed; the author attempted to normalize whitespace and linefeeds in the same expression which parses the actual syntax. This is wrong. Noone uses regexps in this way. The first step is to replace multiple spaces and carriage returns with single non repeating space characters. Anyone who knows how to use regular expressions and tools based on them can do it. The second step is to parse the syntax with normalized space, which is a much smaller regular expression. The author of that regular expression had just messed things up. This is not how things are done. > That doesn't make it any less rococo. Regexes are wonderful, as John > Cowan points out, for small applications, but the inability to break them > into pieces and then put the pieces together, a facility that he's built This has no relation to John Cowan's proposal. I too agree that ability to break them into pieces and then built from pieces complex ones is useful. How does this relate to using XML syntax for regular expressions? > The perl whitespace extensions alone are worth the price of entry for perl > regexes. Using them, any expression can be reformatted into (nearly) > digestible chunks and analyzed so. Wrong. From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 11:23:03 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i474N0KZ056682 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 11:23:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i474HMem064072 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 09:17:22 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i474HM88064071 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 7 May 2004 09:17:22 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405070417.i474HM88064071@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040506164445.742d597c.amyzing@talsever.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 09:17:22 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 04:23:03 -0000 > Your example covered only a subset of the RFC822 address production. By the way, my example covers the full syntax of addr-spec in RFC2822. Jeffrey Friedl's has bugs in it. But only because his purpose was manifestly to impress an innocent reader by presenting a specimen of programming style for an obfuscated programming contest. Let me quote my example again. Using XML Schema Datatype Library: start=element addr-spec { xsd:token { pattern= "(\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\) )?" ~ """([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|"([^"\\]|\\.)*")""" ~ "@" ~ "([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+)*|\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\])" ~ "( \(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\))?" } } With a small extension (implemented in RNV using embedded Scheme interpreter): datatypes dsl = "http://davidashen.net/relaxng/scheme-datatypes" start=element addr-spec { dsl:token { s-pattern=""" comment = "\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\)" atom = "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" atoms = atom "(\." atom ")*" person = "\"([^\"\\]|\\.)*\"" location = "\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\]" local-part = "(" atom "|" person ")" domain = "(" atoms "|" location ")" start = "(" comment " )?" local-part "@" domain "( " comment ")?" """ } } The only difference is that the same string-ish regexp is broken into parts. Rewrite it in XML syntax. Let us see which syntax is more readable. David From amyzing@talsever.org Fri May 7 15:10:41 2004 Received: from garthan.talsever.org (garthan.talsever.org [69.26.131.239]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i478Aed2082774 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 15:10:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ythgin.talsever.com (user-2ivf46j.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.144.211]) by garthan.talsever.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B60B56FBA; Fri, 7 May 2004 04:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 04:10:34 -0400 From: Amelia A Lewis To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG Message-Id: <20040507041034.300cc44c.amyzing@talsever.org> In-Reply-To: <200405070417.i474HM88064071@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040506164445.742d597c.amyzing@talsever.org> <200405070417.i474HM88064071@adat.davidashen.net> Organization: The Mysthical World of Talsever! X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 08:10:41 -0000 *sigh* On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:17:22 +0500 (AMST) David Tolpin wrote: > > Your example covered only a subset of the RFC822 address production. > > By the way, my example covers the full syntax of addr-spec in RFC2822. No, it doesn't. > Jeffrey Friedl's has bugs in it. But only because his purpose was > manifestly to impress an innocent reader by presenting a specimen > of programming style for an obfuscated programming contest. Ah, well that explains it, then. > Let me quote my example again. > > Using XML Schema Datatype Library: > > start=element addr-spec { > xsd:token { > pattern= > "(\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\) )?" > ~ > """([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_` > {|}~]+)*|"([^"\\]|\\.)*")"""~ "@" > ~ > "([a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+(\.[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{| > }~]+)*|\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\])"~ "( \(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\))?" > > } > } Sorry for line-wrap mangling (*shrug* RFC2822 2.3, but it's a SHOULD, not a MUST). This, presumably, is to match RFC2822 3.4.1, not RFC822 6.1 or RFC2822 3.4. It doesn't. Perhaps it would if it defined things using the same names as the BNF; the 'atom' given below does not correspond with RFC2822 3.2.4 atom, and in any event local-part in 3.4.1 uses dot-atom, not atom. The production fails to permit amy.lewis@talsever.org, for instance (a legal RFC2822 address, though it'll get a bounce). Is 'person' below intended to correspond to quoted-string? Will the regex match amy(oh, her)@talsever(oh, there).org? It doesn't appear to, to me, but I'm perhaps too tired to be arguing about it. I can't my first-edition Friedl, and second-edition seems not to have the regex with explanation. > > With a small extension (implemented in RNV using embedded Scheme > interpreter): > > datatypes dsl = "http://davidashen.net/relaxng/scheme-datatypes" > > start=element addr-spec { > dsl:token { > s-pattern=""" > comment = "\(([^\(\)\\]|\\.)*\)" > atom = "[a-zA-Z0-9!#$%&'*+\-/=?\^_`{|}~]+" > atoms = atom "(\." atom ")*" > person = "\"([^\"\\]|\\.)*\"" > location = "\[([^\[\]\\]|\\.)*\]" > local-part = "(" atom "|" person ")" > domain = "(" atoms "|" location ")" > start = "(" comment " )?" local-part "@" domain "( " comment ")?" > """ > } > } > > The only difference is that the same string-ish regexp is broken > into parts. > > Rewrite it in XML syntax. Let us see which syntax is more readable. That would be nice. But should it be a translation of the RFC2822 BNF for 3.4.1, or of the above regex? It seems to me that starting clean from the BNF would be a better test, but I believe that the above regex doesn't match it. Amy! -- Amelia A. Lewis amyzing {at} talsever.com According to Business Week, in the 1990s the ratio between a chief executive's salary and the takehome pay of the typical, feckless, whining grunt on the shopfloor rose from 85:1 to 475:1. (In the UK, which is seeing a vigorous popular backlash against "fat cat" pay packets, the ratio is 24:1). -- The Register From dvd@davidashen.net Fri May 7 18:39:49 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i47BdW07004724 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 18:39:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i47BXpem065588 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 16:33:51 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i47BXotV065587 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 7 May 2004 16:33:50 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405071133.i47BXotV065587@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040507041034.300cc44c.amyzing@talsever.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:33:50 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 11:39:51 -0000 > > By the way, my example covers the full syntax of addr-spec in RFC2822. > > No, it doesn't. It does; a good thing about it is that it is not a proposal, it is an implementation. You could just try to validate to make sure it validates fine your addresses. > The production fails to permit amy.lewis@talsever.org, for instance (a It does. Just try it. > Will the regex match amy(oh, her)@talsever(oh, there).org? This is not RFC2822. You have been inattentive. Comments are not allowed inside the address, only before or after. > perhaps too tired to be arguing about it. How about reading the spec? > That would be nice. But should it be a translation of the RFC2822 BNF > for 3.4.1, or of the above regex? It seems to me that starting clean from > the BNF would be a better test, but I believe that the above regex doesn't > match it. Please do. Start with BNF and do it in XML. Let us compare the result. David Tolpin From lists@jeffrafter.com Fri May 7 23:31:29 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i47GVS1M041698 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 23:31:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Fri, 07 May 2004 09:29:23 -0700 Message-ID: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 09:29:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] RNC and repeatedPrimary X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:31:29 -0000 Everywhere I look I see this kind of construction (which may be the answer to the question I am about to ask), but I have always wondered why the *, +, ? operators are at the end of constructions. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be at the start of a construction? For example: foo = element foo { (bar1, bar2, bar3+, bar4)* } could just as easily be: foo = element foo { *(bar1, bar2, +bar3, bar4) } Especially in the case of RNC, where a repeatedPrimary is wrapped in something like x this makes sense, as it allows parsers/producers to be written in a streaming mode. I am sure there is a good reason, I am sure I am missing something obvious-- I have just always wondered. Thanks, Jeff Rafter From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat May 8 00:09:04 2004 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i47H8wdX046809 for ; Sat, 8 May 2004 00:09:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F59B727 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 19:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RNC and repeatedPrimary From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> References: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1083949730.27287.100.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:08:51 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:09:04 -0000 Hi Jeff, On Fri, 2004-05-07 at 18:29, Jeff Rafter wrote: > I am sure there is a good reason, I am sure I am missing something obvious-- > I have just always wondered. If the compact syntax seems immediately natural to many users that's because it has borrowed well known pieces of syntax to programming languages such as Java and Python and to the DTDs. Thus, I'd say that one of the reasons (if not the only one) is to follow the syntax of the DTDs. My 0.02 Euros. Eric -- Have you ever thought about unit testing XSLT templates? http://xsltunit.org Upcoming XML schema languages tutorial: - Portland -half day- (27/07/2004) http://masl.to/?E6ED13728 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From bob@objfac.com Sat May 8 06:55:37 2004 Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (postfix@sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i47NtbOA096762 for ; Sat, 8 May 2004 06:55:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C6213D87A; Fri, 7 May 2004 16:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <409C21FA.2030504@objfac.com> Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:55:38 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Rafter Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RNC and repeatedPrimary References: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> In-Reply-To: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 23:55:38 -0000 Regular expressions have traditionally been written with postfix *, beginning with the Kleene Star operator introduced by S. C. Kleene (pronounced KLAY-nee) in a 1956 paper. Universally adopted in mathematics, the notation was used by Ken Thompson in a version of the QED text editor he wrote at Bell Labs around 1966, from whence sprang Unix ed and grep, setting the standard for editor and programming languages to the present day. RELAX NG is grounded in regular language theory and its best-known implementations are elaborations of J. A. Brzozowski's derivatives of regular expressions, published in 1964. But probably the real reason the compact syntax uses the notation is that regular expression grammars were used in GML element declarations at least since 1971, and later in SGML and XML DTDs. Changing postfix to prefix wouldn't add any expressiveness, and, after over 40 years of use, would seem very unusual to programmers and mathematicians. (Thanks for a fun 20 minutes looking up the dates!) Bob Foster Jeff Rafter wrote: > Everywhere I look I see this kind of construction (which may be the answer > to the question I am about to ask), but I have always wondered why the *, +, > ? operators are at the end of constructions. Wouldn't it make more sense for > them to be at the start of a construction? For example: > > foo = element foo { (bar1, bar2, bar3+, bar4)* } > > could just as easily be: > > foo = element foo { *(bar1, bar2, +bar3, bar4) } > > Especially in the case of RNC, where a repeatedPrimary is wrapped in > something like x this makes sense, as it allows > parsers/producers to be written in a streaming mode. > > I am sure there is a good reason, I am sure I am missing something obvious-- > I have just always wondered. > > Thanks, > Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Sat May 8 07:50:41 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i480oeQk002551 for ; Sat, 8 May 2004 07:50:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Fri, 07 May 2004 17:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: <006e01c43496$600ed4e0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Bob Foster" References: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <409C21FA.2030504@objfac.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RNC and repeatedPrimary Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 17:49:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 00:50:43 -0000 Thanks Eric and Bob, > Changing postfix to prefix wouldn't add any expressiveness, and, after > over 40 years of use, would seem very unusual to programmers and > mathematicians. > > (Thanks for a fun 20 minutes looking up the dates!) I am still (perhaps even more) surprised that postfix was so dominant-- it seems that the benefits of prefix for handling data in streams would have come into play-- but then, I suppose that's why prefix mathematical notation isn't seen in the "real world" too often-- it is awkward. With that said, I can't figure out a way to make a single pass through an RNC grammar without either (a) buffering an unknown number of tokens in memory, or (b) buffering the resulting grammar. It is likely academic though-- multiple passes are probably fine, as is storing the result document/grammar in memory. Luckily RNC grammars are compact. Of course, the folks on this list know far more than I do about parsing-- so if there is a way to do it without (a) or (b) then I would love to hear it (links to various approaches would be very welcome). Thanks again, Jeff Rafter From lists@jeffrafter.com Sat May 8 23:32:24 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i48GWNQ8003676 for ; Sat, 8 May 2004 23:32:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Sat, 08 May 2004 09:29:44 -0700 Message-ID: <00ef01c43519$adc57530$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 09:29:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] Ambiguity in RNC grammar X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:32:25 -0000 I have just about finished the translator I am working on for RNC->RNG. I stumbled upon what I think is an ambiguity in the grammar. Because XML allows for a "-" in a name, and RNC allows for "-" as part of a dataExcept (or nameExcept)-- I think that there is a collision. Consider: start = foo foo = element foo { string-chars } string-chars = element string-chars { string } chars = "????????" In the declaration of the element foo, what is expected? The child element string-chars, or a string minus the value of chars? This is obviously fringe case-- but then, that was why I wrote my own parser/translator was to learn all of the fringe cases. Jing and XMLDistilled are treating it as an XML name char (when there are no spaces)-- which is what I was doing as well. This suggests that the ambiguity could be clarified very easily with an addition to the tokenization section about the precedence of "-". In general this is good but can create other problems: start = foo foo = element foo { xsd:int-xsd:byte } XMLDistilled passes this file, where Jing raises an error "datatype 'int-xsd' ... not recognized". Is there a recommendation? Thanks, Jeff Rafter From bob@objfac.com Sun May 9 00:23:09 2004 Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (postfix@sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i48HN8Zw008959 for ; Sun, 9 May 2004 00:23:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003F313D8EC; Sat, 8 May 2004 10:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <409D177A.8040306@objfac.com> Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 12:23:06 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Rafter Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Ambiguity in RNC grammar References: <00ef01c43519$adc57530$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> In-Reply-To: <00ef01c43519$adc57530$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:23:09 -0000 Jeff Rafter wrote: > I have just about finished the translator I am working on for RNC->RNG. I > stumbled upon what I think is an ambiguity in the grammar. Because XML > allows for a "-" in a name, and RNC allows for "-" as part of a dataExcept > (or nameExcept)-- I think that there is a collision. Consider: You are expected to resolve this ambiguity during tokenization (see http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/compact-20021121.html#d0e4256). When the longest initial subsequence of an NCName contains a '-' character, it is part of the name. Therefore, a sequence like: xsd:int-xsd:byte consists of three tokens, a CName 'xsd:int-xsd', an invalid token ':' and an NCName 'byte'. Jing must check the datatype name before scanning the next token, or you would get a syntax error. Other processors might do it in reverse order. Bob Foster From lists@jeffrafter.com Sun May 9 01:04:40 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i48I4dIv013135 for ; Sun, 9 May 2004 01:04:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Sat, 08 May 2004 11:04:34 -0700 Message-ID: <00f501c43526$ed9dd5f0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Bob Foster" References: <00ef01c43519$adc57530$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <409D177A.8040306@objfac.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Ambiguity in RNC grammar Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:04:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:04:40 -0000 > Therefore, a sequence like: > > xsd:int-xsd:byte > > consists of three tokens, a CName 'xsd:int-xsd', an invalid token ':' > and an NCName 'byte'. Jing must check the datatype name before scanning > the next token, or you would get a syntax error. Other processors might > do it in reverse order. Good to hear-- I currently catch this error at tokenization. Though, I don't think that my tokenizer would actually consider this as three tokens-- it would see it as a single token which was an invalid XML name. I don't know if the difference is fundamental or not. I suspect not. Thanks again, Jeff Rafter From bob@objfac.com Sun May 9 01:30:37 2004 Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (postfix@sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i48IUbKL015519 for ; Sun, 9 May 2004 01:30:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123F913D8FD; Sat, 8 May 2004 11:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <409D274B.3050000@objfac.com> Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 13:30:35 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Rafter Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RNC and repeatedPrimary References: <0ae401c43450$761963e0$b101a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <409C21FA.2030504@objfac.com> <006e01c43496$600ed4e0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> In-Reply-To: <006e01c43496$600ed4e0$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:30:37 -0000 Jeff Rafter wrote: > With that said, I can't figure out a way to make a single pass through an > RNC grammar without either (a) buffering an unknown number of tokens in > memory, or (b) buffering the resulting grammar. It is likely academic > though-- multiple passes are probably fine, as is storing the result > document/grammar in memory. Luckily RNC grammars are compact. > > Of course, the folks on this list know far more than I do about parsing-- so > if there is a way to do it without (a) or (b) then I would love to hear it > (links to various approaches would be very welcome). Well, you're going to have to store something, because you don't know what to generate for a pattern until you've seen the entire pattern. (Unlike a define or a div, where you know everything you need to know after parsing the first two tokens.) But you should be able to discard whatever you store for a pattern after you've generated events for it. (I'm assuming your translator generates SAX events, or something like them.) The classical solution for expressions like pattern is to produce a parse tree, where the nodes are in the order needed for generation. Thus, an expression like: (a | b)* would produce a tree like: star | or / \ id id | | "a" "b" from which you can generate during a simple pre-order walk. Producing a parse tree is very easy in a top-down parser if every matched rule returns a node. As to references, I don't know exactly where to start, except of course, the dragon book. Most people don't write parsers these days, but generate them from annotated grammars using a "compiler-compiler" like JavaCC or ANTLR. (I'm pretty sure YACC would have problems with the RNC grammar.) Google will find all of these for you. Bob Foster From lists@jeffrafter.com Fri May 14 15:20:10 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net (mail.defined.net [216.23.177.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4E8K93Z004529 for ; Fri, 14 May 2004 15:20:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392 for ; Fri, 14 May 2004 01:20:06 -0700 Message-ID: <011101c4398c$44149220$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 01:20:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] New RNC test suite X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:20:11 -0000 Well, my question about an RNC test suite went unanswered last week, so in my need, I began one. I am trying to be very thorough. I broke down the tests into various categories: encoding, tokenization, grammar, constraints. I completed a set of tests for tokenization. There are 120 tests which include illegal constructions and legal constructions. Some of the tests are redundant checking the same type of thing in various productions. The tests can be found (currently) at http://www.jeffrafter.com/anglia/anglia-test-suite.zip This will almost definitely change (probably to a CVS repository somewhere). "Anglia" is the working name for the RNC toolset I am creating*. Included in the zip file is anglia.exe which can run the tests (and check other RNC files). It passes this group of tests though there are quite a few other sections of code that are commented out right now as I work on things. It should work in Mono and Microsoft.NET anglia -t test/RNCTest.xml Please send any comments, though I am really looking for comments on the tests more than the parser at this point. I have spot checked Jing and XMLDistilled and found a couple of errors in the latter-- these may be problems with the tests themselves. * Because the parser is based on the methodology of the AElfred parser (which is also used in "Saxon"), I wanted to choose a name in this set-- also I was looking for a name with "ng" in it. Apart from these two factors "Anglia" sounds a lot like "angle" which may hint at its use with XML files and their brackets. Or it may not. All the best, Jeff Rafter From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Thu May 20 01:00:24 2004 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4JI0NCD068895 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 01:00:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JHxWpX002663 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 13:59:32 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4JI0Hfv021199 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:00:17 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06b.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:00:16 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:00:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:00:24 -0000 I just found that Oxygen and XML Buddy support RNG and RNC. What else is out there? All I need is emacs+nxml, but when people around me talk about tool support for RELAX, I'd like to have the best possible list ready for them. Because the Tools section of http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=relax-ng doesn't mention Oxygen, I was wondering if anyone knows of anything else out there that might be missing from the list. Let's not count an editor with the ability to pipe a buffer to a batch validator and then show the error messages. I want to see editors that keep a schema in memory and help you create documents that conform to that schema. thanks, Bob From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Thu May 20 06:22:17 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4JNMFbO010743 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 06:22:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (i216123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.125.216.123]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D677BE0 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:22:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:16:38 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <20040520081526.E669.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.08.01 [ja] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:22:20 -0000 On Wed, 19 May 2004 14:00:08 -0400 "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" wrote: > I just found that Oxygen and XML Buddy support RNG and RNC. What else is out > there? I am not aware of any other editors. I am happy with Oxygen, but I have not tried XML Buddy yet. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu May 20 06:37:49 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4JNbnuD012410 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 06:37:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4JNbmMu006638 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HXZ001UAIZ0S8@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HXZ00B74IYZGI@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:37:51 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? In-reply-to: <20040520081526.E669.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20040519163750.725E.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20040520081526.E669.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:37:50 -0000 > I am not aware of any other editors. I am happy with Oxygen, but I have not > tried XML Buddy yet. I tried both briefly, and I liked XMLBuddy better. One of the differences is that XMLBuddy can validate on-the-fly, while with Oxygen you have to click "validate" button. And the context sensitive auto-completion works better in XMLBuddy. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From mikefz@wyeast.net Thu May 20 06:38:29 2004 Received: from mail.radioburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4JNcSLb012516 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 06:38:29 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([66.119.143.193]) by mail.radioburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i4JNcLmD012256; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:38:22 -0600 Message-ID: <40ABEFED.2000501@wyeast.net> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:38:21 -0600 From: Mike Fitzgerald User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-esmartscan-MailScanner-SpamCheck: Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:38:30 -0000 XML Distilled is another. http://www.xmldistilled.com/tools/index.htm Mike DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > I just found that Oxygen and XML Buddy support RNG and RNC. What else is out > there? > > All I need is emacs+nxml, but when people around me talk about tool support > for RELAX, I'd like to have the best possible list ready for them. Because > the Tools section of > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=relax-ng doesn't > mention Oxygen, I was wondering if anyone knows of anything else out there > that might be missing from the list. > > Let's not count an editor with the ability to pipe a buffer to a batch > validator and then show the error messages. I want to see editors that keep > a schema in memory and help you create documents that conform to that > schema. > > thanks, > > Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Thu May 20 14:16:21 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4K7GKlU073137 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 14:16:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i4K7GGHx023659 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:16:16 +0100 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 23538-05 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:16:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.122]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i4K7GDO0023643 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:16:13 +0100 Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:16:08 +0100 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F06FFDE0B@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:16:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 07:16:21 -0000 http://www.xmldistilled.com/ also uses rng (and rnv). I like it. regards DaveP -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From gtxrg-relaxng-user@gmane.org Thu May 20 15:50:25 2004 Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4K8oOT3085433 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 15:50:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BQjFv-00033x-00 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:50:23 +0200 Received: from 83-70-88-87.bas1.mvw.galway.eircom.net ([83.70.88.87]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:50:23 +0200 Received: from edankert by 83-70-88-87.bas1.mvw.galway.eircom.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:50:23 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Edwin Dankert" Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:45:33 +0100 Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 83-70-88-87.bas1.mvw.galway.eircom.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: news Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:50:25 -0000 The Exchanger XML Editor supports RNG/RNC validation and it can use RNG/RNC grammars for context sensitive tag-completion. http://www.exchangerxml.com/ Regards, Edwin Dankert Cladonia Ltd. http://www.cladonia.com/ From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu May 20 16:50:55 2004 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4K9otIa093187 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 16:50:55 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: auLrSzaFdxb0JBpmUkQEGg 1085046654 Received: from [134.53.144.88] (ip134-053-144-088.s144.muohio.edu [134.53.144.88]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F2EBAD105 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 05:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F06FFDE0B@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F06FFDE0B@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] editors supporting RNG and/or RNC? Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 05:56:23 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:50:56 -0000 On May 20, 2004, at 3:16 AM, David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk wrote: > http://www.xmldistilled.com/ also uses rng (and rnv). Windows-only, alas. Also, their website is absolutely horrendous! Not exactly a way to make a good first impression. Bruce From sam.hunting@lexisnexis.com Thu May 20 20:48:53 2004 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4KDmriu025052 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 20:48:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KDlmE8004347 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:47:48 -0400 Received: from mbcalbexc01.bender.com (mbcalbexc01.bender.com [198.176.99.24]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4KDmjfv013612 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:48:48 -0400 Received: by MBCALBEXC01.BENDER.COM with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:48:45 -0400 Message-ID: <64B3B1B5C2C51F49A655F652DE7A7C4F04810D61@LNGALBEXCP006.BENDER.COM> From: "Hunting, Sam (LNG-EWR)" To: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:48:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] Syntax-directed XML editor that supports RelaxNG sought X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:48:54 -0000 Is there a syntax-directed editor, like Epic or XMetal or even Checkmark, that supports Relax NG? That is, one that will not let invalid markup be entered into a document in the first place? If not, why not? Sam Hunting Senior XML Analyst sam.hunting@lexisnexis.com 937.820.2324 http://www.lexisnexis.com LexisNexis - It's How You Know From alexb@griffinbrown.co.uk Thu May 20 22:24:53 2004 Received: from waltz.griffinbrown.co.uk (waltz.griffinbrown.co.uk [80.177.145.170]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4KFOq7p039313 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 22:24:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: by WALTZ with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2CRCDX3G>; Thu, 20 May 2004 16:25:46 +0100 Message-ID: <49A640010B4FD311A06B005004AFC4E0294D69@WALTZ> From: Alex Brown To: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Syntax-directed XML editor that supports Relax NG sought Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:25:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:24:53 -0000 > Is there a syntax-directed editor, like Epic or XMetal or > even Checkmark, > that supports Relax NG? > > That is, one that will not let invalid markup be entered into > a document in > the first place? > > If not, why not? Probably because there doesn't (yet?) appear to be a market worth servicing for the companies selling these editors. - Alex. From bob@objfac.com Thu May 20 23:32:00 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4KGVxpk049834 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 23:32:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A741496B1; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40ACDD7F.8030903@objfac.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:31:59 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Brown Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Syntax-directed XML editor that supports Relax NG sought References: <49A640010B4FD311A06B005004AFC4E0294D69@WALTZ> In-Reply-To: <49A640010B4FD311A06B005004AFC4E0294D69@WALTZ> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'relaxng-user@relaxng.org'" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:32:00 -0000 Alex Brown wrote: >>Is there a syntax-directed editor, like Epic or XMetal or >>even Checkmark, >>that supports Relax NG? >> >>That is, one that will not let invalid markup be entered into >>a document in >>the first place? >> >>If not, why not? > > > Probably because there doesn't (yet?) appear to be a market worth servicing > for the companies selling these editors. And/or because most people prefer not to use this kind of editor. Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ From giampaolo@trapo.it Wed May 26 04:16:45 2004 Received: from rsi-mix-01.widhost.net (rsi-mix-01.widhost.net [212.97.48.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i4PLGixj093145 for ; Wed, 26 May 2004 04:16:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 22964 invoked from network); 25 May 2004 21:16:43 -0000 Received: from host34-96.pool80117.interbusiness.it (HELO trapo.it) (80.117.96.34) by rsi-mix-01.widhost.net with SMTP; 25 May 2004 21:16:43 -0000 Message-ID: <40B3BA45.6080504@trapo.it> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:27:33 +0200 From: Giampaolo User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] only some xhtml elements inside a text X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:16:47 -0000 hi to all, i've a grammar like the one below. I'm using xhtml:body has element and including a xhtml-basic grammar found elsewhere. My goal is to have to elements where i can put text, links, bold, underlined or italic text. Moreover i would like that my body element were never empty. Can someone give me a little hint? the xml where i started from is something like this: The Mobile Hci Conference 2003 will be held at Udine http://hcilab.uniud.it/mobilehci [more on this] The HCI Lab announces the fifth edition of the Mobile HCI Conference, that will be held in Udine in September 2003. For more information, visit the site HciMobile2003 2002-09-16 From spencer@aotera.org Fri May 28 08:40:37 2004 Received: from frodo.aotera.org (cpu2326.adsl.bellglobal.com [207.236.16.49]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4S1eafS008106 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 08:40:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by frodo.aotera.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6837F1ED199; Thu, 27 May 2004 21:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <02B9BAF4-B048-11D8-9F9D-000393B6150C@aotera.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Spencer Cheng Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 21:40:33 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Subject: [relaxng-user] Problems converting schema elements X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:40:37 -0000 Hi Folks, I am trying to convert some existing W3C XML schema from MPEG into relaxNG schema using Sun's RNG converter (mainly so I can edit XML documents using nXML). I am running into problems with the conversion of xs:any elements. The original elements typically looks like this. The output from rngconv looks like Which does not validate. Being new to relaxNG, would someone provide some hints on how to fix these manually? I could remove them from the original schema but that seems to be cheating. :) Regards Spencer From bob@objfac.com Fri May 28 14:12:40 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4S7Cd5W050410 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 14:12:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (c-66-41-190-126.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.190.126]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35381496A1; Fri, 28 May 2004 00:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40B6E5EB.8000404@objfac.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 02:10:35 -0500 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Spencer Cheng Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Problems converting schema elements References: <02B9BAF4-B048-11D8-9F9D-000393B6150C@aotera.org> In-Reply-To: <02B9BAF4-B048-11D8-9F9D-000393B6150C@aotera.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 07:12:40 -0000 Let's say you have a schema like: The rough equivalent of the above written in the compact syntax would be: default namespace foo = "foo" start = element example { anybutfoo } anybutfoo = element * - foo { anycontents } anycontents = mixed { (attribute * { text } | any)* } any = element * { anycontents } Trang translates this to RELAX NG as: foo Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ Spencer Cheng wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am trying to convert some existing W3C XML schema from MPEG into > relaxNG schema using Sun's RNG converter (mainly so I can edit XML > documents using nXML). I am running into problems with the conversion of > xs:any elements. > > The original elements typically looks like this. > > > > The output from rngconv looks like > > > > Which does not validate. Being new to relaxNG, would someone provide > some hints on how to fix these manually? I could remove them from the > original schema but that seems to be cheating. :) > > Regards > Spencer > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > From Tom.Gaven@exostar.com Fri May 28 19:08:13 2004 Received: from Netmail1.exostar.com (netmail1.exostar.com [208.47.83.14] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4SC8DGc086121 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 19:08:13 +0700 (ICT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Problems converting schema elements Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 08:08:07 -0400 Message-ID: <0E2D64FCAEB5C5458A494DC28270548E042E5D@Netmail1.exostar.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Problems converting schema elements Thread-Index: AcREg0jM6ex1t+cyRFaXVGDI+SkO4AAKRTNg From: "Tom Gaven" To: "Bob Foster" , "Spencer Cheng" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id i4SC8DGc086121 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 12:08:13 -0000 Spencer, It might be good to rework the schemas manually, but as a first pass, you might just try replacing the offending names. Change To You'd have to be careful to keep all changes in sync, since there are bound to be many references to this particular define. Of course, 'anybutfoo' (or whatever name is meaningful to your schema) is more descriptive than 'any_lax___other_5' Tom -----Original Message----- From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Bob Foster Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:11 AM To: Spencer Cheng Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Problems converting schema elements Let's say you have a schema like: The rough equivalent of the above written in the compact syntax would be: default namespace foo = "foo" start = element example { anybutfoo } anybutfoo = element * - foo { anycontents } anycontents = mixed { (attribute * { text } | any)* } any = element * { anycontents } Trang translates this to RELAX NG as: foo Bob Foster http://xmlbuddy.com/ Spencer Cheng wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am trying to convert some existing W3C XML schema from MPEG into > relaxNG schema using Sun's RNG converter (mainly so I can edit XML > documents using nXML). I am running into problems with the conversion of > xs:any elements. > > The original elements typically looks like this. > > > > The output from rngconv looks like > > > > Which does not validate. Being new to relaxNG, would someone provide > some hints on how to fix these manually? I could remove them from the > original schema but that seems to be cheating. :) > > Regards > Spencer > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From atsushi@ximian.com Mon May 31 04:44:35 2004 Received: from sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp (sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp [202.224.159.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4ULiXAr003891 for ; Mon, 31 May 2004 04:44:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (east94-p177.eaccess.hi-ho.ne.jp [61.211.112.178]) by sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp (hi-ho Mail Server) with ESMTP id <0HYJ00AH6R21A6@sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 31 May 2004 06:44:27 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 06:44:20 +0900 From: Atsushi Eno Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] New RNC test suite In-reply-to: <011101c4398c$44149220$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> To: Jeff Rafter Message-id: <40BA55B4.8030502@ximian.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6+ (Windows/20040529) References: <011101c4398c$44149220$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 21:44:36 -0000 Hello, Sorry for the late reply to the old story. > Well, my question about an RNC test suite went unanswered last week, so in > my need, I began one. I am trying to be very thorough. I broke down the > tests into various categories: encoding, tokenization, grammar, constraints. > I completed a set of tests for tokenization. There are 120 tests which > include illegal constructions and legal constructions. Some of the tests are > redundant checking the same type of thing in various productions. The tests > can be found (currently) at > > http://www.jeffrafter.com/anglia/anglia-test-suite.zip Thank you - the tests are cool. Today I could fix a bunch of our compact syntax parser stuff based on your testcases (well, many bugs remain, I know). It would be helpful to improve/implement compact syntax support. I would like to add a small test in our library that will download your tests archive, expands it and try to parse against it. Will it be available under some free software licenses? Thanks, Atsushi Eno / Mono project From lists@jeffrafter.com Mon May 31 04:55:10 2004 Received: from mail.defined.net ([216.23.162.5]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4ULtABm005095 for ; Mon, 31 May 2004 04:55:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ARIMATHEA ([24.53.229.70]) by mail.defined.net (Defined Mail Center) with SMTP id JGA74392; Sun, 30 May 2004 14:55:05 -0700 Message-ID: <04d701c44690$c6a5dc10$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> From: "Jeff Rafter" To: "Atsushi Eno" References: <011101c4398c$44149220$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <40BA55B4.8030502@ximian.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] New RNC test suite Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:55:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 21:55:11 -0000 > Thank you - the tests are cool. Today I could fix a bunch of our > compact syntax parser stuff based on your testcases (well, many > bugs remain, I know). It would be helpful to improve/implement > compact syntax support. I expect you will finish your C# parser before me! : ) > I would like to add a small test in our library that will download > your tests archive, expands it and try to parse against it. Will it > be available under some free software licenses? I expect that the tests will likely be under a Public Domain type license. Currently, I am releasing it for testing but am retaining any copyright, so feel free to use it. If Mono needs a special license, let me know-- we can work around those types of things. I finished a whole series of tests for the preamble/declaration logic. There are a lot of things that are technically legal but seem like they shouldn't be (though I am sure there are good reasons). I have been working to get my own parser conformant to the tests that I am creating... In any case, it is great to hear that they are useful to someone other than me : ) Thanks, Jeff Rafter From atsushi@ximian.com Mon May 31 05:13:14 2004 Received: from sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp (sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp [202.224.159.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i4UMDCoQ006921 for ; Mon, 31 May 2004 05:13:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (east94-p177.eaccess.hi-ho.ne.jp [61.211.112.178]) by sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp (hi-ho Mail Server) with ESMTP id <0HYJ00F83SDS0F@sproxy03.hi-ho.ne.jp> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 31 May 2004 07:13:06 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 07:13:00 +0900 From: Atsushi Eno Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] New RNC test suite In-reply-to: <04d701c44690$c6a5dc10$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> To: Jeff Rafter Message-id: <40BA5C6C.9090605@ximian.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6+ (Windows/20040529) References: <011101c4398c$44149220$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> <40BA55B4.8030502@ximian.com> <04d701c44690$c6a5dc10$6403a8c0@ARIMATHEA> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:13:14 -0000 Hello, >>Thank you - the tests are cool. Today I could fix a bunch of our >>compact syntax parser stuff based on your testcases (well, many >>bugs remain, I know). It would be helpful to improve/implement >>compact syntax support. > I expect you will finish your C# parser before me! : ) Heh, that would not likely to happen ;) I know that there are not a little bugs in our grammar simplification and constraint check stuff, that should be done before compact syntax improvements. > I expect that the tests will likely be under a Public Domain type license. > Currently, I am releasing it for testing but am retaining any copyright, so > feel free to use it. If Mono needs a special license, let me know-- we can > work around those types of things. I finished a whole series of tests for > the preamble/declaration logic. There are a lot of things that are > technically legal but seem like they shouldn't be (though I am sure there > are good reasons). I have been working to get my own parser conformant to > the tests that I am creating... Any kind of free software license sound enough and great to me. My actual plan is to add standalone test program (we have similar one that downloads and uses James Clark's test collection). It won't be "include" in our cvs, so basically I don't have to care unless the license is too restricted. > In any case, it is great to hear that they are useful to someone other than > me : ) Thanks again for your effort ;-) Atsushi Eno From tor@helland.org Fri Jun 18 03:14:36 2004 Received: from smtp210.tiscali.dk (smtp210.tiscali.dk [62.79.79.113]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i5HKEZEF030473 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 03:14:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp210.tiscali.dk (8.12.6p3/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i5HKEWtH054657 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:14:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tor@helland.org) Received: from mail.helland.org (82.164.214.170) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 40CC21D10001F959 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:14:32 +0200 Received: from Spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v4.01a) ID MO000049; 17 Jun 2004 22:12:36 +0200 Received: from spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v4.01a); 17 Jun 2004 22:12:24 +0200 Received: from rhuidean (192.168.1.3) by mail.midiar.net (Mercury/32 v4.01a) with ESMTP ID MG000048; 17 Jun 2004 22:12:17 +0200 Message-ID: <009601c454a7$a9ba0a70$0301a8c0@rhuidean> From: "Tor Helland" To: Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:14:12 +0200 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] Recursive structure with restrictions X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:14:37 -0000 Hi, I want to model a recursive structure with a choice of say 3 elements, which again may contain that same choice as subelements. At least this is a simple test case for the actual structure: or But I also want to reuse that structure in some other contexts, restricting the allowed elements, without making a customised copy of the whole definition: or Playing with grammars, I found a solution demoed in the three documents at the end of this email. I like the control I get over the structure, and not repeating it. Is there a better way to achieve this, preferrably with one schema file? Is there a simpler way, something obvious I have overlooked? -tor test.xml: test.rng: test2.rng: From tor@helland.org Tue Jun 29 11:25:33 2004 Received: from smtp110.tiscali.dk (smtp110.tiscali.dk [62.79.79.110]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i5T4PVGB067467 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:25:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp110.tiscali.dk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5NLMnaj099510 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:22:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tor@helland.org) Received: from mail.helland.org (82.164.214.170) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 40CC21D1000416C4 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:22:49 +0200 Received: from Spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v4.01a) ID MO00004E; 23 Jun 2004 23:19:38 +0200 Received: from spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v4.01a); 23 Jun 2004 23:19:28 +0200 Received: from rhuidean (192.168.1.3) by mail.midiar.net (Mercury/32 v4.01a) with ESMTP ID MG00004D; 23 Jun 2004 23:19:20 +0200 Message-ID: <004701c45968$4293cd70$0301a8c0@rhuidean> From: "Tor Helland" To: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:22:46 +0200 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Recursive structure with restrictions X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:25:33 -0000 > Playing with grammars, I found a solution demoed in the three documents at > the end of this email. I like the control I get over the structure, and not > repeating it. > > Is there a better way to achieve this, preferrably with one schema file? Is > there a simpler way, something obvious I have overlooked? Summer is here, and this list takes a dive, so I thought I had to answer myself. Using a general entity from the old xml and dtd world, I could replace the include element. -tor test.rng: '> ]> &abc-elements; &abc-elements; &abc-elements; End of email From robin.berjon@expway.fr Sat Jul 3 01:22:29 2004 Received: from mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i62IMS6g003342 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:22:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.217] (APastourelles-107-2-4-98.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.9.98]) by mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6C908500097E for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:22:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:22:32 +0200 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:22:30 -0000 Hi, I've been working on defining a RelaxNG schema for the upcoming SVG 1.2, which in turn involves also creating schemata for sXBL, XLink, and XML Events. Many parts of these specs have open content models, where arbitrary elements with arbitrary attributes are allowed recursively. As you might expect, I keep hitting that problem where having an attribute wildcard creates a conflict with a declared attribute, and quite frankly it's driving me up the walls. I've read the solution offered in Eric's excellent book, but it really looks to me like it is a work-around trying to defeat the system than a real solution. I've also investigating the option of tightly coupling these schemata (excluding their namespaces from the open part of the model and reincluding them explicitly) but that's really ugly, and isn't an option as those schemata are meant to work together out of the box but live their separate lives in separate specs (at least sXBL and SVG are to be official, normative, and separate, and we intend to send our XML Events RNG to the HTML WG for inclusion in 1.1 in case they like it). Am I missing something? Is there a solution that I haven't thought of or missed in Eric's book? If not, would it be possible in future versions of RelaxNG to have something matching arbitrary attributes that haven't been matched already? It would be truly helpful for this whole compound documents shebang :) Or should I just give up and hop straight to NRL? Thanks for any insights, -- Robin Berjon From jcowan@reutershealth.com Sat Jul 3 02:29:31 2004 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (a7cebc03.cst.lightpath.net [167.206.188.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i62JTV37012154 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:29:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by skunk.reutershealth.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i62Ij5EY029249; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:45:05 -0400 Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:45:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:45:04 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Robin Berjon Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata Message-ID: <20040702184504.GM27829@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:29:32 -0000 Robin Berjon scripsit: > Hi, > > I've been working on defining a RelaxNG schema for the upcoming SVG 1.2, > which in turn involves also creating schemata for sXBL, XLink, and XML > Events. Many parts of these specs have open content models, where > arbitrary elements with arbitrary attributes are allowed recursively. You may find my non-normative XLink schema at http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200206/msg01074.html useful. -- Is a chair finely made tragic or comic? Is the John Cowan portrait of Mona Lisa good if I desire to see jcowan@reutershealth.com it? Is the bust of Sir Philip Crampton lyrical, www.ccil.org/~cowan epical or dramatic? If a man hacking in fury www.reutershealth.com at a block of wood make there an image of a cow, is that image a work of art? If not, why not? --Stephen Dedalus From tor@helland.org Sat Jul 3 15:29:39 2004 Received: from smtp220.tiscali.dk (smtp220.tiscali.dk [62.79.79.114]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i638Tc8p013072 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:29:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp220.tiscali.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i638Tbr2078781 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:29:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tor@helland.org) Received: from mail.helland.org (82.164.214.170) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 40C2E67300020210 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:29:37 +0200 Received: from Spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v4.01a) ID MO000011; 3 Jul 2004 10:25:43 +0200 Received: from spooler by mail.helland.org (Mercury/32 v4.01a); 3 Jul 2004 10:25:33 +0200 Received: from rhuidean (192.168.1.3) by mail.midiar.net (Mercury/32 v4.01a) with ESMTP ID MG000010; 3 Jul 2004 10:25:28 +0200 Message-ID: <00ef01c460d7$d843e5a0$0301a8c0@rhuidean> From: "Tor Helland" To: Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:29:21 +0200 Organization: helland.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Recursive structure with restrictions X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:29:39 -0000 > > Playing with grammars, I found a solution demoed in the three documents > > at the end of this email. I like the control I get over the structure, > > and not repeating it. > > > > Is there a better way to achieve this, preferrably with one schema file? > > Is there a simpler way, something obvious I have overlooked? > > Summer is here, and this list takes a dive, so I thought I had to answer > myself. > > Using a general entity from the old xml and dtd world, I could replace the > include element. Summing up this monologue, just for the record :-) And I still don't know if there are any better solutions. Using the entity, I lose error reporting line numbers inside the entity (using jing/xmlbuddy), and when I'm still coding the entity this is a nuisance. But the entity solution also allows me to include a pattern without enclosing it within a grammar, thus allowing easier access to global defines as well as the defines of the grammar containing the entity reference. Using the include element, error reporting is good. But I don't like splitting a structure across two files just for the mechanics of the schema language. I like such splitting to reflect a separation of logic. (And in the actual schema I was working on, not this demo, I ended up using two entities.) -tor (a simple programmer who likes Relax NG for documenting his file format.) From hfolch@free.fr Mon Jul 12 04:42:26 2004 Received: from postfix4-1.free.fr (postfix4-1.free.fr [213.228.0.62]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6BLgPix070752 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:42:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [82.66.38.143] (robinson-3-82-66-38-143.fbx.proxad.net [82.66.38.143]) by postfix4-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C641159451 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:42:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40F1B43B.6010302@free.fr> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:42:19 +0200 From: Helka Folch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.1) Gecko/20040707 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] including XLink attributes in RNG schema question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Helka.Folch@limsi.fr List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:42:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to write a Relax-ng schema to describe elements which have xlink href attributes attached to them. For instance, I want the schema to describe the following : So, in my schema I include the RNG schema for XLink (xlink.rng) and the reference to Xlink attributes : If I understand correctly, there are no default or fixed values for attribute definitions in RNG schemas. Does that mean that the required XLink attribute 'type' has to be specified on each element of the instance document that also uses the XLink attribute href, for it to be valid?, like this : My second question, concerns the fact that I would like the 'href' attribute to be a required attribute of the 'use' element. However, in the RNG schema for XLink the href attribute (XLINK.href.attrib) is defined as optional, so when I include the definition in my schema I import the optionality. Is there another way of including XLink attributes that wouldn't require specifying the xlink 'type' attribute in the instance document and would allow me to define the xlink href attribute as required in the schema, while conforming to the XLink spec? Many thanks, Helka Folch From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jul 12 05:05:45 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6BM5ixS073054 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:05:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (h223033.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.114.223.33]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7972562F1; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:05:42 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:05:09 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: Robin Berjon Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata In-Reply-To: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> References: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> Message-Id: <20040712065807.DFA2.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.09.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:05:45 -0000 > As you might expect, I keep hitting that problem where having an > attribute wildcard creates a conflict with a declared attribute, and > quite frankly it's driving me up the walls. Could you show me a small example of this problem? Some of us might be able to think of a better workaround. > Am I missing something? Is there a solution that I haven't thought of or > missed in Eric's book? If not, would it be possible in future versions > of RelaxNG to have something matching arbitrary attributes that haven't > been matched already? It would be truly helpful for this whole compound > documents shebang :) > > Or should I just give up and hop straight to NRL? Although RELAX NG is intended to help schema modularization, I think that sophisticated use of namespaces require something like NRL. It is expected to be approved as a Draft International Standard in September, 2004 at ISO/IEC SC34. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jul 12 06:05:39 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6BN5bLv078542 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:05:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (h223033.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.114.223.33]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F28E6661; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:05:37 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:05:03 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: Robin Berjon Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata In-Reply-To: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> References: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> Message-Id: <20040712074908.2079.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.09.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:05:39 -0000 On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:22:32 +0200 Robin Berjon wrote: > > I've read the solution offered in Eric's excellent book, but it really > looks to me like it is a work-around trying to defeat the system than a > real solution. I do not remember Eric's solution, but I will probably do this: 1) module (svg.rnc) each attribute wildcard is defined as awc = attribute * - (svgNamespace:* | local:*) {text} 2) customized module include "svg.rnc" { awc = attribute * - (svgNamespace:* | xhtmlNamespace:* | local:*) {text} } 3) combine customized modules Use customized modules rather than svg.rnc. -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From dvd@davidashen.net Thu May 6 14:17:44 2004 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i467HeIg095974 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 14:17:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i467C8em058199 for ; Thu, 6 May 2004 12:12:08 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i467C7Xn058198 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 May 2004 12:12:07 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200405060712.i467C7Xn058198@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Latest proposal for smart regexes in RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20040505190854.GD10370@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: dvd@davidashen.net X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:47:17 +0700 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:17:44 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:11:50 +0500 (AMST) X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:17:44 -0000 > > I am asking because I have a feeling that the string-based (as opposed > > to XML) syntax for regular expressions (unix-like, adopted by W3C Schema) > > is the compact syntax. It is easy to write and convenient to use, > > and actually needs just one addition: ability to compose a regular > > expression from parts. > > It's neither easy to write nor convenient to use, it's just that we're all > so used to it. It optimizes the wrong things ("[A-Z]" rather than "[:ucalpha:]"), I don't think so. I am confident that one of the most significant benefits we get from Unicode is that we can write A-Z instead of [:ascalpha:] (and not ucalpha, as these are different things). Letters and numbers are ordered and at fixed places. A-Z is always ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, it was not so in the past, and I am glad it is now. For ucalpha there is a different optimization in XML Schema Regular Expressions (used with Relax NG), namely \p{L} . Not more cryptic than :ucalpha:, and directly refers to Unicode character classes -- much easier for those who knows what they are. > > > Strings are not trees. > > Regular expressions *are* trees: they are compositions of sequence, choice, > and zeroOrOne. Everything else is just syntactic sugar. (Note that I > do not provide for backreferences, a la \1, \2, ..., which make the regular > expressions no longer regular.) 1) Strings are not trees. XML documents are trees. That's why regular expressions (which can be represented in either tree-like (XML) form or in the form of a sequence of instructions (traditional string regular expressions)) should provide - XML structured representation (or compact but still structured tree-like) for XML documents in whole - string representation to match strings. One can propose XML representation of string regular expressions to ease processing, but as well as the XML syntax is the base syntax for XML regular expressions, and the compact syntax is designed to make life easier in certain environment, string syntax for string regular expressions is the base syntax, and XML syntax can be provided as a convenience, but must map to the string syntax bidirectionally. 2) XML Schema Regular expressions do not have back-references. From sean.mcgrath@propylon.com Mon Jul 19 23:28:08 2004 Received: from mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.20]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i6JGS7O9022564 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:28:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 29404 messnum 5058473 invoked from network[213.190.141.30/unknown]); 19 Jul 2004 16:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?172.17.10.102?) (213.190.141.30) by mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 29404) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2004 16:27:56 -0000 Message-ID: <40FBF682.4060104@propylon.com> From: Sean McGrath Organization: Propylon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] An RNC modularisation strategy question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: sean.mcgrath@propylon.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:28:08 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:27:46 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:28:08 -0000 I am creating a whole bunch of Relax NG schemas and seeking to maximize re-use of schema fragments. I am having trouble with multiple includes and seeking advise on how best to deal with the one-include-per-file restriction. Here is my setup/wishlist: All schema fragments stored in RNC and tranged via ANT to RNG/XSD/DTD. All schema fragments are usable standalone as well as modules of bigger schemas. All schema fragments have their own namespace with a simple naming convention that mirrors the file naming convention. All schemas take the same basic shape. Here is the basic shape (for any schema S): -- file S.rnc -- namespace S = "http://example.com/S" # One of these for each schema fragment this schema uses. # Replace XXX with schema basefilename. include "XXX.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } start = _S.ROOT_ _S.ROOT_ = element S:root { ... } -- end file S.rnc -- In an ideal world, a schema writer wishing to use another schema X as a component, should not have to know anything about what other schema fragments get included by schema X. As I understand Relax NG, this is not the case. In the ASCII art below I have tried to illustrate a situation in which schema M includes M1 and M2. M1 in turn, also includes M2. M --| |-- M1 --| | | | |-- M2 | | |-- M2 The resultant schema (as I understand it) is illegal because M2 is included twice. Back in my C programming youth, I would use use "#ifndef" :-) How best to handle in Relax NG? Illustrative schemas below. Error message: java -jar d:\data\utils\trang.jar m.rnc m.xsd m2.rnc:5:1: error: multiple definitions of "_M2.ROOT_" without "combine" attribute Interestingly, tranging to RNGs does not produce multiple include errors. Subsequent jing's complain about the duplicates however. Tranging to XSD's does produce errors about the duplicates. -- m.rnc -- namespace M = "http://example.com/M" start = _M.ROOT_ include "m1.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } include "m2.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } _M.ROOT_ = element M:root { # content model here text } -- m1.rnc -- namespace M1 = "http://example.com/M1" start = _M1.ROOT_ include "M2.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } _M1.ROOT_ = element M1:root { # model goes here text } -- m2.rnc -- namespace M2 = "http://example.com/M2" start = _M2.ROOT_ _M2.ROOT_ = element M2:root { text } -- end -- I can see a couple of routes forward involving munging the locations of includes with scripts but I do not want to launch into anything until I have sanity checked that I have not missed the simple one line solution. regards, Sean -- http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Jul 20 03:02:11 2004 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6JK2AXG051101 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:02:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12594; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:01:58 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Sean McGrath Message-ID: <20040719200158.GA31077@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <40FBEFE5.1010005@propylon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40FBEFE5.1010005@propylon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, relax-ng-comment@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] An RNC modularisation strategy question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:02:11 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:01:58 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:02:11 -0000 (Note: I've added relaxng-user@relaxng.org, which is the most appropriate mailing list for this.) Sean McGrath scripsit: > I am creating a whole bunch of Relax NG schemas and seeking to > maximize re-use of schema fragments. > > I am having trouble with multiple includes and seeking advise on how > best to deal with the one-include-per-file restriction. > > Here is my setup/wishlist: > All schema fragments stored in RNC and tranged via ANT to RNG/XSD/DTD. > > All schema fragments are usable standalone as well as modules of > bigger schemas. > > All schema fragments have their own namespace with a simple naming > convention that mirrors the file naming convention. > > All schemas take the same basic shape. Here is the basic shape (for > any schema S): > > -- file S.rnc -- > namespace S = "http://example.com/S" > > # One of these for each schema fragment this schema uses. > # Replace XXX with schema basefilename. > include "XXX.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } > > start = _S.ROOT_ > > _S.ROOT_ = element S:root { > ... > } > -- end file S.rnc -- If all your schema fragments are really Russian-doll style like this, then you'd do better to get rid of the definitions, store a single element pattern in each file, and use external references to embed them in one another as needed. But I'll assume that your needs are more complex than that. > In an ideal world, a schema writer wishing to use another schema X as > a component, should not have to know anything about what other schema > fragments get included by schema X. > > As I understand Relax NG, this is not the case. In the ASCII art below > I have tried to illustrate a situation in which schema M includes M1 > and M2. M1 in turn, also includes M2. > > M --| > |-- M1 --| > | | > | |-- M2 > | > | > |-- M2 > > > The resultant schema (as I understand it) is illegal because M2 is > included twice. Correct. That's because inclusion is flat (it does not introduce a name scope); when you include rules, you throw away the enclosing grammar pattern (implicit in the case of rnc format). > Back in my C programming youth, I would use use "#ifndef" :-) How best > to handle in Relax NG? NRL is probably your friend in this case. > Illustrative schemas below. > > Error message: > java -jar d:\data\utils\trang.jar m.rnc m.xsd > > m2.rnc:5:1: error: multiple definitions of "_M2.ROOT_" without > "combine" attribute > > Interestingly, tranging to RNGs does not produce multiple include > errors. Subsequent jing's complain about the duplicates > however. Tranging to XSD's does produce errors about the duplicates. Translation between rnc and rng is very "surfacey" and doesn't always catch errors. Translation to xsd has to understand the semantics, so it does fairly complete error checking on the input. > -- m.rnc -- > namespace M = "http://example.com/M" > > start = _M.ROOT_ > > include "m1.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } > include "m2.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } > > _M.ROOT_ = element M:root { > # content model here > text > } > > -- m1.rnc -- > namespace M1 = "http://example.com/M1" > > start = _M1.ROOT_ > > include "M2.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } > > _M1.ROOT_ = element M1:root { > # model goes here > text > } > -- m2.rnc -- > namespace M2 = "http://example.com/M2" > > start = _M2.ROOT_ > > _M2.ROOT_ = element M2:root { > text > } > -- end -- > > I can see a couple of routes forward involving munging the locations of > includes with scripts but I do not want to launch into anything until I > have sanity checked that I have not missed the simple one line solution. > > regards, > Sean > > -- > http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com -- Evolutionary psychology is the theory John Cowan that men are nothing but horn-dogs, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and that women only want them for their money. http://www.reutershealth.com --Susan McCarthy (adapted) jcowan@reutershealth.com From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Tue Jul 20 06:06:35 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6JN6XYt074395 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:06:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j100047.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.100.47]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F9811F2F; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:06:32 +0900 (JST) From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: <20040719200158.GA31077@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <40FBEFE5.1010005@propylon.com> <20040719200158.GA31077@skunk.reutershealth.com> Message-Id: <20040720075821.F6BE.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.09.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, relax-ng-comment@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] An RNC modularisation strategy question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:06:36 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:05:53 +0900 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:06:36 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:01:58 -0400 John Cowan wrote: > > The resultant schema (as I understand it) is illegal because M2 is > > included twice. > > Correct. That's because inclusion is flat (it does not introduce a name > scope); when you include rules, you throw away the enclosing grammar pattern > (implicit in the case of rnc format). You might want to use nested grammars for avoding conflicts. For example: start = foo foo = grammar { start = foo foo = element foo { empty } } In this schema, we have two definitions of "foo". But the first and the second belong to different grammars and thus they do not conflict. Cheers, Makoto -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From sean.mcgrath@propylon.com Wed Jul 21 02:19:20 2004 Received: from mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.17]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i6KJJJjd024153 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:19:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 8756 messnum 7748773 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 20 Jul 2004 19:19:10 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.26?) (62.77.172.85) by mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 8756) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2004 19:19:10 -0000 Message-ID: <40FD702E.7020009@propylon.com> From: Sean McGrath User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <40FBEFE5.1010005@propylon.com> <20040719200158.GA31077@skunk.reutershealth.com> <20040720075821.F6BE.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <20040720141757.GF9445@ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20040720141757.GF9445@ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relax-ng-comment@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] An RNC modularisation strategy question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:19:21 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:19:10 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:19:21 -0000 John Cowan wrote: >One possible way forward for Sean's particular case, though not for the >general case, would be to relax (:-)) RNG validity such that it is valid >to have two definitions of the same name without a combination specified, >provided the definitions are identical -- in which case, one of them is >simply discarded. > >This seems like a reasonable extension to me. > > > That would work perfectly for my scenario. I am looking into the other options mentioned but this would be by far the cleanest for my setup. Some more details of the (possibly unconventional) way I lay out my schemas: I use name definitions a lot. I use one for each element type in fact (no russian dolls and no nested grammers). I lay out my RNC's lile BNF grammers with names playing the part of "non-terminals". I use rigid naming conventions for filenames, namespaces, element types and the non-terminals to help me stay sane. e.g. the element type "foo" in namespace "R1234" will look like this: -- file R1234.rnc -- namespace R1234 = "http://www.example.com/R1234" _R1234.FOO_ = element R1234:foo { } ... So, If I know there is an element type "foo" in namespace R1234 and I want to import the schema into another schema, I immediately know (without having to look anything up) where it is stored, what name to refer to in order re-use that element type. e.g. -- file R5678.rnc -- # include the schema for namespace R1234 include "R1234.rnc" namespace R5678 = "http://www.example.com/R5678" _R5678:BAR_ = element R5689:bar { ... # re-use element foo from namespace R1234 _R1234.FOO_ ... } Multiple includes are pretty much inevitable in this sort of set-up. Overlapping includes naturally end up occuring because each schema is both standalone (and therefore must include all dependances) and a potential sub-schema. Sean From robin.berjon@expway.fr Mon Jul 26 18:47:03 2004 Received: from mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6QBl2jR064230 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:47:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.217] (APastourelles-107-2-1-228.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.37.228]) by mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 27CFA50009AC; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:46:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4104EF48.9020409@expway.fr> From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata References: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> <20040712065807.DFA2.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> In-Reply-To: <20040712065807.DFA2.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:47:03 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:47:20 +0200 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:47:03 -0000 Hi, MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: >>As you might expect, I keep hitting that problem where having an >>attribute wildcard creates a conflict with a declared attribute, and >>quite frankly it's driving me up the walls. > > Could you show me a small example of this problem? Some of us might > be able to think of a better workaround. Sorry for the delayed answer, and thanks for the offer to help. Here is a sample RNG (it's not optimally small, but I hope small enough to make the problem clear): Here is a sample instance (but it is rather irrelevant): As you can see, there are two fairly straightforward wildcard definitions (if I haven't gotten anything overly wrong). The handler element is meant to contain arbitrary XML, including possibly some SVG (though that SVG would not be processed by the SVG user agent -- the content of the handler element is passed as a parameter to code that handles the event). It therefore refers to wildcard-noAttr.content, which is a wildcard of everything except attributes. That, in turn, specifies that whatever elements are contained inside itself can have any attributes, children, etc. This blows up because Jing complains (quite conformantly) that that wildcard content model could match svg:handler, and since it could it could not have any attributes on it as that would duplicate with the declared id attribute (and clash on its type, which is the error I get). I can see where this makes sense and I could special-case for SVG by excluding the attribute wildcard in there for elements in the SVG namespace. But that gets tedious fast because a schema for SVG 1.2 also has to cover XLink, XML Events, sXBL, and probably a dozen or so other schemata that I'm forgetting about right now. >>Or should I just give up and hop straight to NRL? > > Although RELAX NG is intended to help schema modularization, I think that > sophisticated use of namespaces require something like NRL. That's enough of an answer for me, I wish it were more strongly advertised (would have avoided me quite some trouble in this case). I assume that the problem above has good reasons to exist, and I'm probably only complaining like a spoiled child because this is the one and only situation for which I have found XML Schema to be more intuitive :) Thanks a lot, -- Robin Berjon From robin.berjon@expway.fr Mon Jul 26 18:49:16 2004 Received: from mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6QBnFgZ064477 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:49:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.217] (APastourelles-107-2-1-228.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.37.228]) by mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8EB2F5000835; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:49:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4104EFD1.4050100@expway.fr> From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata References: <40E5A7E8.7050408@expway.fr> <20040702184504.GM27829@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20040702184504.GM27829@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:49:16 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:49:37 +0200 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:49:16 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > Robin Berjon scripsit: >>I've been working on defining a RelaxNG schema for the upcoming SVG 1.2, >>which in turn involves also creating schemata for sXBL, XLink, and XML >>Events. Many parts of these specs have open content models, where >>arbitrary elements with arbitrary attributes are allowed recursively. > > You may find my non-normative XLink schema at > http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200206/msg01074.html useful. Yes, that's actually what I started off from. Mostly, I just converted it to RNG because that's what we're using (there's some debate between some members of the WG as to whether RNC really is more readable to the SVG hacker). Thanks! -- Robin Berjon From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Jul 26 19:34:55 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6QCYswi070443 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:34:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j104120.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.104.120]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC40C11E4C; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:34:52 +0900 (JST) From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: Robin Berjon Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute wildcards in open and extensible schemata In-Reply-To: <4104EF48.9020409@expway.fr> References: <20040712065807.DFA2.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> <4104EF48.9020409@expway.fr> Message-Id: <20040726212528.8DC1.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.09.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:34:56 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:34:10 +0900 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:34:56 -0000 Robin, > I can see where this makes sense and I could special-case for SVG by > excluding the attribute wildcard in there for elements in the SVG > namespace. But that gets tedious fast because a schema for SVG 1.2 also > has to cover XLink, XML Events, sXBL, and probably a dozen or so other > schemata that I'm forgetting about right now. I understand the problem. The "RELAX NG DTD Compatibility" spec (which is intended to mimick DTDs) is too restrictive about the use of identifiers. I would then use RELAX NG as well as Schematron. Schematron is very good at specifying IDs (even better than NRL). Is this acceptable? http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/02/11/relaxtron.html Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From hugues.caubel@airbus.com Fri Aug 6 16:07:13 2004 Received: from eads-av-smtp2.gmessaging.net (eads-av-smtp2.gmessaging.net [194.51.201.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7697Cfl088674 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:07:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from conversion-daemon.eads-relay2.cesson.gm-adm by eads-av-smtp2.gmessaging.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) id <0I2000001NRT2J@eads-av-smtp2.gmessaging.net> (original mail from hugues.caubel@airbus.com) for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:56:39 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp ([172.24.21.18]) by eads-av-smtp2.gmessaging.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I2000CHYOUE8K@eads-av-smtp2.gmessaging.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:56:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i768vrEU012349 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:57:53 +0200 Received: from fr0-mailrt11.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.25]) by fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i768vr2s012346 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:57:53 +0200 Received: from fr0-mailrt03.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.22]) by fr0-mailrt11.res.airbus.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:56:40 +0200 Received: from FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.5]) by fr0-mailrt03.res.airbus.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:56:40 +0200 From: "CAUBEL, Hugues" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <8D6581C22F494340878EF8F6A0EBABB383078F@FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-topic: relaxNG schema of W3C Schema Thread-index: AcR7kz0KoTAGep5HQiaK9x5/a96EBQ== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2004 08:56:40.0693 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A1B5250:01C47B93] Subject: [relaxng-user] relaxNG schema of W3C Schema X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:07:13 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:56:19 +0200 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:07:13 -0000 Hello, I would like to use the relax NG schema for W3C schema http://www.jenitennison.com/schema/xmlschema.rng. But I have problem to validate it, using Jing I have the following error : xmlschema.rng:718:18: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "include" from namespace "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" and it seems to match the following definition: L718 I can't understand where is the problem. After that, I try to convert to relax NG the DTD coming from the W3C Specification(http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema.dtd and http://www.w3.org/2001/datatypes.dtd) but I have the same result : xmlschemaofficial.rng:1118:18: error: cconflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "include" from namespace "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" L1118 Do you see a problem in the definition of "any" ? or is it when other elements that use it that problem arise ? Tanks, Hugues This e-mail is intended only for the above addressee. It may contain privileged information. If you are not the addressee you must not copy, distribute, disclose or use any of the information in it. 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From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Aug 18 11:45:42 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7I4jgMb005149 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:45:42 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: aHZJkT/E7Qnp44adpEgwZg 1092804340 Received: from [134.53.34.219] (unknown [134.53.34.219]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61351C14CDA for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <384DDE38-F0D1-11D8-AA2B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Subject: [relaxng-user] customizing docbook-ng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:45:45 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:43:59 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:45:45 -0000 What am I doing wrong here with the db.quote customization that is making it invalid? Bruce namespace db = "http://www.docbook.org/docbook-ng" default namespace = "http://www.docbook.org/docbook-ng" include "mods.rnc" include "docbook-ng.rnc" { # remove all the main software/technology related definitions db.domain.inlines = notAllowed db.product.inlines = notAllowed db.technical.blocks = notAllowed db.verbatim.blocks = notAllowed db.synopsis.blocks = notAllowed # add a new element to quote db.quote = element quote { db.quote.attlist, (db.all.inlines | hb.nonquote)* } # add mods to bibliography element db.bibliography = element bibliography { db.bibliography.attlist, db.bibliography.info, db.all.blocks*, (db.bibliodiv+ | (ModsSchema | db.biblioentry | db.bibliomixed)+) } } # nonquote pattern allows for semantic rendering of split quotes like: # "The world," the guy said, "is flat." hb.nonquote = element nq { empty } From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Aug 18 11:52:01 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7I4q1T5005800 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:52:01 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: aPnezmMUwaMfQRlilGTCxQ 1092804720 Received: from [134.53.34.219] (unknown [134.53.34.219]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED96CC1468B; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4B1603C1-F0D2-11D8-AA2B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] customizing docbook-ng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:52:01 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:51:40 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:52:01 -0000 What am I doing wrong here with the db.quote customization that is making nxml tell me it's invalid? I have the same issue with bibliography, where I can get tag-completion on the element, but then it's flagged as invalid. Bruce namespace db = "http://www.docbook.org/docbook-ng" default namespace = "http://www.docbook.org/docbook-ng" include "mods.rnc" include "docbook-ng.rnc" { # remove all the main software/technology related definitions db.domain.inlines = notAllowed db.product.inlines = notAllowed db.technical.blocks = notAllowed db.verbatim.blocks = notAllowed db.synopsis.blocks = notAllowed # add a new element to quote db.quote = element quote { db.quote.attlist, (db.all.inlines | hb.nonquote)* } # add mods to bibliography element db.bibliography = element bibliography { db.bibliography.attlist, db.bibliography.info, db.all.blocks*, (db.bibliodiv+ | (ModsSchema | db.biblioentry | db.bibliomixed)+) } } # nonquote pattern allows for semantic rendering of split quotes like: # "The world," the guy said, "is flat." hb.nonquote = element nq { empty } From hugues.caubel@airbus.com Thu Aug 19 16:32:56 2004 Received: from eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net (eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net [194.51.201.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7J9Wt6e000946 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:32:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from conversion-daemon.eads-relay1.cesson.gm-adm by eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) id <0I2O00001S9SGO@eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net> (original mail from hugues.caubel@airbus.com) for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:22:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fr0-mailsp01.res.airbus.corp ([172.24.21.17]) by eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I2O00MN5SQ9JG@eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:22:58 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fr0-mailsp01.res.airbus.corp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fr0-mailsp01.res.airbus.corp (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7J9MBcj011272 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:22:11 +0200 Received: from fr0-mailrt10.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.24]) by fr0-mailsp01.res.airbus.corp (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7J9MBrr011267 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:22:11 +0200 Received: from fr0-mailrt03.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.22]) by fr0-mailrt10.res.airbus.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:23:01 +0200 Received: from FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.5]) by fr0-mailrt03.res.airbus.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:23:01 +0200 From: "CAUBEL, Hugues" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <8D6581C22F494340878EF8F6A0EBABB38307CA@FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-topic: relaxNG schema for W3C schema Thread-index: AcSFzh+PmhEdBhl0Rc+B6GAQLjVEHw== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2004 09:23:01.0771 (UTC) FILETIME=[1FDF6DB0:01C485CE] Subject: [relaxng-user] relaxNG schema for W3C schema X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:32:56 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:23:01 +0200 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:32:56 -0000 Hello, I would like to use the relaxNG schema for W3C schema http://www.jenitennison.com/schema/xmlschema.rng for nxml mode. But I have a problem to validate it, using Jing I have the following error : xmlschema.rng:718:18: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "include" from namespace " http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" and it seems to match the following definition: L718 I can't understand where is the problem...After that, I try to convert to relaxNG the DTD coming from the W3C Specification( http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema.dtd and http://www.w3.org/2001/datatypes.dtd) but I have the same result : xmlschemaofficial.rng:1118:18: error: cconflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "include" from namespace "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" L1118 Do you see a problem in the definition of "any" ? or is it when other elements that use it that problem arise ? Tanks, Hugues This e-mail is intended only for the above addressee. It may contain privileged information. If you are not the addressee you must not copy, distribute, disclose or use any of the information in it. 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From ndw@nwalsh.com Thu Aug 19 16:58:14 2004 Received: from mxsf27.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf27.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.227]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7J9wE6M003738 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:58:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mxip19.cluster1.charter.net (mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.149]) by mxsf27.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i7J9w84l015384 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:58:08 -0400 Received: from cpe-68-112-239-32.ma.charter.com (HELO mercury) (68.112.239.32) by mxip19.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2004 05:58:08 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.84,92,1091419200"; d="scan'208"; a="206885331:sNHT14998296" Received: from ndw by mercury with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bxjfz-0000Qs-00; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:57:43 -0400 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" References: <4B1603C1-F0D2-11D8-AA2B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> From: Norman Walsh X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ In-Reply-To: <4B1603C1-F0D2-11D8-AA2B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> (Bruce D'Arcus's message of "Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:51:40 -0400") Message-ID: <878ycbjvqg.fsf@nwalsh.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: customizing docbook-ng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:58:14 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:57:43 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:58:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain / "Bruce D'Arcus" was heard to say: | What am I doing wrong here with the db.quote customization that is | making nxml tell me it's invalid? I have the same issue with | bibliography, where I can get tag-completion on the element, but then | it's flagged as invalid. | Bruce | | namespace db = "http://www.docbook.org/docbook-ng" db = "http://docbook.org/docbook-ng" No "www." on the front. I think that's most of it. I also got some weirdness with competing "*" elements, that I fixed like this: | default namespace = "http://www.docbook.org/docbook-ng" | include "mods.rnc" { extensionSchema = db._any } | include "docbook-ng.rnc" { db._any = element * - (db:*|mods:*) { db._any.attribute*, (text, db._any)* } | # remove all the main software/technology related definitions | db.domain.inlines = notAllowed | db.product.inlines = notAllowed | db.technical.blocks = notAllowed | db.verbatim.blocks = notAllowed | db.synopsis.blocks = notAllowed | # add a new element to quote | db.quote = element quote { db.quote.attlist, (db.all.inlines | | hb.nonquote)* } | # add mods to bibliography element | db.bibliography = element bibliography { | db.bibliography.attlist, | db.bibliography.info, | db.all.blocks*, | (db.bibliodiv+ | (ModsSchema | db.biblioentry | | db.bibliomixed)+) | } | } | # nonquote pattern allows for semantic rendering of split quotes like: | # "The world," the guy said, "is flat." | hb.nonquote = element nq { empty } Be seeing you, norm -- Norman Walsh | Birds are taken with pipes that imitate http://nwalsh.com/ | their own voices, and men with those | sayings that are most agreeable to | their own opinions.--Samuel Butler --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBBJHmXOyltUcwYWjsRArWiAJ9NZ8yFwj3vLc/Rz6lHItWKN84OlwCgnNtb CLbjP86RD0cJAdccd+ldtnY= =yTWJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Sep 12 10:51:37 2004 Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com (frontend2.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8C3pbkN017401 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:51:37 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: HWEXJqP4mVpZ+B5pPRhGnw 1094961093 Received: from [134.53.34.139] (ip134-053-034-139.s34.muohio.edu [134.53.34.139]) by frontend2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AC656D301 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <17FD82F6-046F-11D9-8275-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:51:57 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Subject: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:51:38 -0000 This list has been quiet. Anyone there? OK, I'm working on a schema for which I am taking advantage of RELAX NG-specific features like interleave and attribute-based validation (I use a class attribute on the root to drive validation throughout the schema). While I have no interest in supporting conversion to DTD (at least for now), I would like to be able to get a clean XSD using Trang. Trang will convert the current schema to XSD, but when I try to validate an instance against it, I get errors related to the following original RNC patterns: Entry.Biblio = element entry { (RefType-Book | RefType-Article | RefType-Chapter ), RefType* } RefType-Book = element reftype { attribute name { "book" }, Formatting.Elements } RefType-Article = element reftype { attribute name { "article" }, Formatting.Elements } RefType-Chapter = element reftype { attribute name { "chapter" }, Formatting.Elements } ## Beyond the mandatory definitions, the list of reference types ## is uncontrolled. RefType = element reftype { attribute name { text }, attribute inherit-from { text }?, attribute group { "yes" }?, Formatting.Elements } Here are the errors: > The content model must be deterministic. Multiple definition of > element 'http://xbiblio.sourceforge.net/xcs:reftype' causes the > content model to become ambiguous. An error occurred at , (225, 6). > > Elements with the same name and in the same scope must have the same > type. An error occurred at , (605, 8). > > Elements with the same name and in the same scope must have the same > type. An error occurred at , (624, 8). > > Elements with the same name and in the same scope must have the same > type. An error occurred at , (643, 8). Any suggestions on how to better handle this? Also, is there any problems using interleave in this context? I have a few patterns that look like this: Part = element part-details { Formatting.Attributes, ( Volume? & Issue? & Pages? & Date? ) } Bruce From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Sep 12 20:24:51 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8CDOplO062062 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:24:51 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: ITKXuZ688ROg7wX6qsw07Q 1094995490 Received: from [134.53.34.142] (ip134-053-034-142.s34.muohio.edu [134.53.34.142]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038A0C15165 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2D1E248F-04BF-11D9-8275-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:25:12 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Subject: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:24:52 -0000 Let's try again; sent this last night, but it never appeared. This list has been quiet. Anyone there? OK, I'm working on a schema for which I am taking advantage of RELAX NG-specific features like interleave and attribute-based validation (I use a class attribute on the root to drive validation throughout the schema). While I have no interest in supporting conversion to DTD (at least for now), I would like to be able to get a clean XSD using Trang. Trang will convert the current schema to XSD, but when I try to validate an instance against it, I get errors related to the following original RNC patterns: Entry.Biblio = element entry { (RefType-Book | RefType-Article | RefType-Chapter ), RefType* } RefType-Book = element reftype { attribute name { "book" }, Formatting.Elements } RefType-Article = element reftype { attribute name { "article" }, Formatting.Elements } RefType-Chapter = element reftype { attribute name { "chapter" }, Formatting.Elements } ## Beyond the mandatory definitions, the list of reference types ## is uncontrolled. RefType = element reftype { attribute name { text }, attribute inherit-from { text }?, attribute group { "yes" }?, Formatting.Elements } Here are the errors: > The content model must be deterministic. Multiple definition of > element 'http://xbiblio.sourceforge.net/xcs:reftype' causes the > content model to become ambiguous. An error occurred at , (225, 6). > > Elements with the same name and in the same scope must have the same > type. An error occurred at , (605, 8). > > Elements with the same name and in the same scope must have the same > type. An error occurred at , (624, 8). > > Elements with the same name and in the same scope must have the same > type. An error occurred at , (643, 8). Any suggestions on how to better handle this? Also, is there any problems using interleave in this context? I have a few patterns that look like this: Part = element part-details { Formatting.Attributes, ( Volume? & Issue? & Pages? & Date? ) } Bruce From gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Mon Sep 13 18:42:52 2004 Received: from mail.storm.ca (mail.storm.ca [209.87.239.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DBglwY090039 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:42:47 +0700 (ICT) Received: from CRANE-T23.CraneSoftwrights.com (p46.n-dcpop03.stsn.com [63.240.218.46]) by mail.storm.ca (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8DBgjR29001 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> X-Sender: crane@bigrideau.com@pop.storm.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:42:37 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas In-Reply-To: <17FD82F6-046F-11D9-8275-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:42:53 -0000 At 2004-09-11 23:51 -0400, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >OK, I'm working on a schema for which I am taking advantage of RELAX >NG-specific features like interleave and attribute-based validation >... >I would like to be able to get a clean XSD using Trang. I see the above two requirements as irreconcilable. You can have one or the other, but you cannot have both. >Trang will convert the current schema to XSD, but when I try to validate >an instance against it, I get errors related to the following original RNC >patterns: Sure you do ... all of the errors that were reported make sense to me and I couldn't express them any better myself. You've asked for non-XSD semantics in XSD syntax, so unsurprisingly you are going to get errors reported regarding what is or is not allowed in the semantics of a document model described by XSD. >Any suggestions on how to better handle this? "Handle" what? You are asking for and getting the XSD syntax of your choice in semantics, and those semantics are not supported by XSD. One strategy is to express the XSD "permissively" so as to qualify a superset of the documents that you want, and then use a second pass with a technology like ISO/IEC 19757-3 Schematron to post-process your instance to check the things that cannot be checked in XSD. Looking at the invocation of trang, I do not see any parameters that would produce a companion Schematron expression with an XSD expression. >Also, is there any problems using interleave in this context? In the context of XSD? XSD doesn't support the interleave modeling semantic. >I have a few patterns that look like this: > > Part = element part-details { Formatting.Attributes, ( Volume? & > Issue? & Pages? & Date? ) } Because of ambiguity, you'll never be able to express in XSD the precise semantics available to you in RELAX-NG. If you changed the interleave into a simple alternate pattern ("OR") then use a second pass Schematron pattern to confirm the presence of at most one of any of the choices, then with the two expressions you will have mimicked the interleave of RELAX-NG. Remember that document modeling languages have two components: the semantics of what validating processors are allowed to do with XML instances and the syntax that allows users to express which of those semantics they want for their document models. When I teach the differences between schema languages, I first teach all the many semantics possible when modeling documents, then looking at each of the expression languages in turn I convey to students which of the semantics are supported by which of the expressions. That way new users who need to do document modeling are choosing the expression language they need to express the validation semantics they need, rather than choosing an expression language for arbitrary reasons first and then having to live with or accommodate shortcomings that are not meeting their modeling requirements. Many people go the other way around: they choose a modeling language then try to shoehorn their needs into it. You are asking for the semantics of RELAX-NG to be supported by XSD processors, which cannot happen unless you limit yourself to that subset of RELAX-NG semantics that happens to be supported by XSD processors. When you have chosen to use only those semantics supported by XSD then the trang translation will produce an XSD that won't give you errors. I hope this helps. ............................... Ken -- World-wide on-site corporate, govt. & user group XML/XSL training. G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Sep 13 19:01:40 2004 Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com (frontend2.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DC1evv091837 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:01:40 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: 9obk5+pLZbCUH5HN19vlTg 1095076892 Received: from [134.53.145.182] (ip134-053-145-182.s145.muohio.edu [134.53.145.182]) by frontend2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A4156D325 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:02:00 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:01:40 -0000 On Sep 13, 2004, at 7:42 AM, G. Ken Holman wrote: >> I would like to be able to get a clean XSD using Trang. > > I see the above two requirements as irreconcilable. You can have one > or the other, but you cannot have both. > >> Trang will convert the current schema to XSD, but when I try to >> validate an instance against it, I get errors related to the >> following original RNC patterns: > > Sure you do ... all of the errors that were reported make sense to me > and I couldn't express them any better myself. You've asked for > non-XSD semantics in XSD syntax, so unsurprisingly you are going to > get errors reported regarding what is or is not allowed in the > semantics of a document model described by XSD. I'm sure you got a hint in my message that I recognize there are things that XSD cannot express. Nowhere was I suggesting (or even vaguely hinting) that Trang was at fault. I'm not asking for complete fidelity; I'm asking for the best strategy to use in designing the schema to create a reasonable approximation in XSD. James gave me the following off-list comment (I had emailed him asking why the list wasn't working): > I would suggest that you create two RELAX NG schemas: > > A. One taking full advantage of RELAX NG features > > B. One sticking relatively close to the functionality of XSD > > Make A include B and override the parts where RELAX NG can do better. > Then use B to generate the XSD. So is the original non-deterministic because chapter would also be a valid attribute value in the second pattern below? RefType-Chapter = element reftype { attribute name { "chapter" }, Formatting.Elements } ## Beyond the mandatory definitions, the list of reference types ## is uncontrolled. RefType = element reftype { attribute name { text }, attribute inherit-from { text }?, attribute group { "yes" }?, Formatting.Elements } And once I adjust that to convert properly, what else do I avoid using in B? With regard to interleave in RNG, ould a good alternative be something like this in B ... ( A | B | C )* ... and then I can override with interleave in A? Bruce From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Sep 13 19:12:41 2004 Received: from tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DCCehn092886 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:12:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.166] helo=localhost) by tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6phH-0007zm-PO for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:12:39 +0100 Received: from rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.165]) by localhost (scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 30169-09 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:12:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.247]) by rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6phH-0007zV-BM; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:12:39 +0100 Received: from tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.103.182]) by smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1C6phH-0005Ka-3z; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:12:39 +0100 Message-ID: <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:13:12 +0100 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (X11/20040715) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:12:41 -0000 We have been arguing this point on an internal list of the TEI - should we take advantage of all Relax NG's power, or should be only use the portable subset, because we know people will want DTD and XSD versions? Do you use Relax NG as a schema language, or a notation of an interchange schema language? James' idea is elegant, but I don't think it solves the problem of interleave, because the outer schema will be more restrictive. ie if it says a = x, y, z whereas the inner one says a = x & y & z when what is the advantage of the inner one if it lets documents past which the outer one rejects? where the inner schema is *more* restrictive (we had an example where an attribute was only present if certain children existed), it works. I am not sure you can solve this without having a clear plan of why you are writing schemas, who uses them, when, what problems they solve etc. Sebastian From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Sep 13 19:43:39 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DChc2c096470 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:43:38 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: pQ6QpQ7xjH9ZIC8B+SIGlg 1095079417 Received: from [134.53.145.200] (unknown [134.53.145.200]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ABCC14D63 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8FB7B51C-0582-11D9-9364-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:43:49 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:43:39 -0000 On Sep 13, 2004, at 8:13 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I am not sure you can solve this without having a clear plan of why > you are writing > schemas, who uses them, when, what problems they solve etc. The schema in question is a citation style schema; an xml equivalent to bibtex .bst files. I am designing it alongside the XSLT code that will format the citations and bibliographies. In my ideal world, it (or something like it) completely replaces both .bst files and the proprietary binary files in commercial applications like Endnote. Intended users are thus scholars (like me), students, and researchers across a wide range of disciplines, most of whom -- if it is successful -- would never see the XML anyway. Indeed, I want this to be usable in the bibliographic project at OpenOffice. There are a number of problems with existing citation style languages. The most important is that they are too complicated (the other is they have dumb data models that mean styles aren't very portable). This is partly a language/syntax issue, but partly about basic design. In my case, I am basing the design on the principle that while authors want a fair bit of flexibility in micro-details like where commas go, it is better to enforce more rigorous structure otherwise. My design aims to make styles easier to write and maintain, as well as more portable across research fields. So, I say citation styles are grouped into a small number of broad classes, which gets encoded in an attribute value on the root like so: I then use that to drive the rest of the schema. When the user lays out the citation definition, for example, they can only specific author, year, and point (page numbers). By contrast, if they use a footnote class, they have access to the full range of options. So here I'm using one RELAX NG-only feature, and I'm doing it because a) it's easier for users, and b) it reflects the entire logic of the code behind it (the XSLT formatting, but also ultimately any sort of GUI that represents it). The other place I am drawing on the expressive power of RNG to some extent is on how users actually define formatting for bibliographies. I require definitions for book, chapter, and article because a) they are the most commonly cited resources and authors are familiar with them, and b) they each represent different more abstract structural classes, and so can serve as fallbacks. So, current code forces definitions for these three types. If there is nothing else there, everything would get mapped by the XSLT to those types; a legal case would get formatted like an article because they are structurally equivalent. I then add a mechanism to allow other types, where those types can optionally inherit from the required types. The question is how to allow for this extensibility. Currently, I just don't control the optional types, but that creates the non-deterministic problem. If I define the types upfront, that is an artificial limitation (e.g. I have no idea what sort of types different users in different communities might want to define). Bruce From davidc@nag.co.uk Mon Sep 13 19:52:35 2004 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i8DCqZBH097480 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:52:35 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-17.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1095079947!14103221 X-StarScan-Version: 5.2.10; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- X-Originating-IP: [212.125.75.74] Received: (qmail 8309 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2004 12:52:27 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-17.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 12:52:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 29555 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2004 12:47:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 12:47:40 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13674; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:50:06 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:50:03 +0100 Message-Id: <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id NAA20690; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:50:03 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk In-reply-to: <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> (message from Sebastian Rahtz on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:13:12 +0100) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:52:36 -0000 Sebastian James' idea is elegant, but I don't think it solves the problem of interleave, because the outer schema will be more restrictive. ie if it says a = x, y, z whereas the inner one says a = x & y & z Yes but you could make your outer one something less restrictive and xsd/dtd-friendly such as (x|y|z)* or even something equivalent and xsd/dtd-friendly such as (x,((y,z?)|(z,y?))|y,((x,z?)|(z,x?))... etc David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Sep 13 20:33:57 2004 Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DDXu8O002680 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:33:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6qxw-0008I6-HG for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:33:56 +0100 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 31322-06 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:33:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.235]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6qxw-0008Ho-3K; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:33:56 +0100 Received: from tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.103.182]) by smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1C6qxv-0004rp-3n; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:33:55 +0100 Message-ID: <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:34:28 +0100 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (X11/20040715) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Carlisle Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:33:57 -0000 David Carlisle wrote: > James' idea is elegant, but I don't think it solves the problem of > interleave, because > the outer schema will be more restrictive. ie if it says > a = x, y, z > whereas the inner one says > a = x & y & z > >Yes but you could make your outer one something less restrictive and >xsd/dtd-friendly such as (x|y|z)* > friendly, but straying away from the business rule of "x, y and z must be present". if the DTD/XSD is being used to assist authoring, its not very nice. sometimes I wonder what the point of interleave is. if you want x, y and z, but don't care about the order, why not specify an order? >or even something equivalent and >xsd/dtd-friendly such as (x,((y,z?)|(z,y?))|y,((x,z?)|(z,x?))... etc > > thats not technically manageable over a certain number of elements, surely? Sebastian From davidc@nag.co.uk Mon Sep 13 20:43:52 2004 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i8DDhpYS004001 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:43:52 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-6.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1095083029!14097350 X-StarScan-Version: 5.2.10; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- X-Originating-IP: [212.125.75.72] Received: (qmail 14792 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2004 13:43:50 -0000 Received: from smtp-3.star.net.uk (212.125.75.72) by server-6.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 13:43:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 5999 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2004 13:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-3.star.net.uk with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 13:32:13 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14489; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:41:06 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:41:04 +0100 Message-Id: <200409131341.OAA21014@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA21014; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:41:04 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk In-reply-to: <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> (message from Sebastian Rahtz on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:34:28 +0100) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:43:52 -0000 > friendly, but straying away from the business rule of "x, y and z must > be present". Ah, Yes well as you said initially it depends why you want the schema (and why you want multiple versions) If you are going to enforce your "business rule" by using relax ng, it doesn't really matter if the xsd/dtd version loses quite a lot of the restrictions. You may still want them to drive xml editors expecting schema in those formats though. (x|y|z)* doesn't enforce that any of them have to be present but may be enough to quide an editor into telling the author that the only things he can add at this point are x y and z, and that may be enough. > thats not technically manageable over a certain number of elements, > surely? it's only a bit of elisp..... David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Sep 13 20:46:56 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DDksDQ004361 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j082218.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.82.218]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B8AAE5E; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:46:53 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:46:52 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: "CAUBEL, Hugues" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxNG schema for W3C schema In-Reply-To: <8D6581C22F494340878EF8F6A0EBABB38307CA@FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp> References: <8D6581C22F494340878EF8F6A0EBABB38307CA@FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp> Message-Id: <20040913222940.5BF3.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.11.02 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:46:56 -0000 On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:23:01 +0200 "CAUBEL, Hugues" wrote: > xmlschema.rng:718:18: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element >"include" from namespace " http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" This error happens when (1) some attribute declaration has a wildcard matching absolutely any namespace and (2) you have an ID attribute somewhere else in your schema. There are two solutions. One is to make the wildcard match all namespaces EXCEPT the namespace of the element declaration having that ID attribute. The other is to convert the ID attribute to a string attribute. In your case, I would rewrite ... with . A fundamendal reasons is as follows. In DTD, an application program can determine whether an attribute is ID by examining the attribute name and the parent element name. The DTD Compatibility specification of RELAX NG is intended to mimic DTDs and ensures this simplicity. Hope this helps. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Sep 13 20:50:52 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DDoqeM004930 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:50:52 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: HanzcLC2eMt68PqWk6pVzw 1095083451 Received: from [134.53.57.141] (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCFAC15235 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:50:49 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:50:52 -0000 On Sep 13, 2004, at 9:34 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > sometimes I wonder what the point of interleave is. if you want x, y > and z, > but don't care about the order, why not specify an order? In my case I both require the elements, but can't specify the order (if you have to represent publisher and place, which goes first depends on the style). So ( A | B )* runs the risk of repeating elements that shouldn't be repeated. Bruce From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Sep 13 21:00:36 2004 Received: from fb1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (fb1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.175]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DE0Z5j006182 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:00:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.167]) by fb1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6rNi-00050Z-V5 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:00:34 +0100 Received: from scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.166] helo=localhost) by tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6rKf-0005EQ-OQ for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:57:25 +0100 Received: from rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.165]) by localhost (scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 19686-07 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:57:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.247]) by rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C6rKf-0005E7-AZ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:57:25 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.101.17]) by smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1C6rKf-00071y-3z; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:57:25 +0100 Message-ID: <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:57:57 +0100 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (X11/20040715) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:00:38 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > In my case I both require the elements, but can't specify the order > (if you have to represent publisher and place, which goes first > depends on the style). So ( A | B )* runs the risk of repeating > elements that shouldn't be repeated. who goes first surely depends on the rendering application? surely the order in the source of and should not dictate rendering? Sebastian From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Sep 13 21:02:27 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DE2Rlf006393 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:02:27 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: 3JQu70Ygf0H+jJtvjwujcQ 1095084146 Received: from [134.53.57.141] (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B16DC15355 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8995F53B-058D-11D9-B234-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:02:24 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:02:27 -0000 On Sep 13, 2004, at 9:57 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> In my case I both require the elements, but can't specify the order >> (if you have to represent publisher and place, which goes first >> depends on the style). So ( A | B )* runs the risk of repeating >> elements that shouldn't be repeated. > > who goes first surely depends on the rendering application? surely the > order > in the source of and should not dictate rendering? Yes, it should; the whole point is to "dictate rendering." All the instances here just provide a template for the processing application. If it has ... ... it just says process the place first, and then the publisher (and put a colon before the latter). Of course, I still need to figure out how to *do* this with XSLT, but that's another matter. Bruce From davidc@nag.co.uk Mon Sep 13 21:08:25 2004 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i8DE8PK0007231 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:08:25 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1095084499!14136204 X-StarScan-Version: 5.2.10; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- X-Originating-IP: [212.125.75.75] Received: (qmail 15462 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2004 14:08:19 -0000 Received: from smtp-6.star.net.uk (212.125.75.75) by server-10.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 14:08:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 18521 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2004 14:06:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-6.star.net.uk with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 14:06:11 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14928; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:08:11 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:08:05 +0100 Message-Id: <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id PAA21229; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:08:05 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk In-reply-to: <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> (message from Sebastian Rahtz on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:57:57 +0100) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:08:25 -0000 who goes first surely depends on the rendering application? surely the order in the source of and should not dictate rendering? I think Bruce wants to validate the rendering application which is a simplified template language: so if you put first, then the publisher information coming from te hsource doc comes out first. Given that it's implemented in XSLT though a reasonable alternative would not be to use any schema language and just put the checks into the xslt, the XSLT template handling this could easily be made to moan if there wasn't exactly one publisher child, and if the XSLT is doing that, having a schema validation step doesn't really win you very much. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Sep 13 21:18:40 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DEIehI008805 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:18:40 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: ycvvMkMIfOjHOSonXZj/Tg 1095085119 Received: from [134.53.57.141] (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD20C1543D for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:18:36 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:18:41 -0000 On Sep 13, 2004, at 10:08 AM, David Carlisle wrote: > Given that it's implemented in XSLT though a reasonable alternative > would not be to use any schema language and just put the checks into > the > xslt, the XSLT template handling this could easily be made to moan if > there wasn't exactly one publisher child, and if the XSLT is doing > that, > having a schema validation step doesn't really win you very much. One obvious thing it wins is independence of any particular implementation; so someone could easily write a C-based processor for RTF documents, a Perl-based one for TeX, etc. But aside from that, with your suggestion David, doesn't that mean changing styles by definition means changing XSLT code (e.g. creating new templates and/or stylesheets)? If as I assume yes, I'm trying to avoid that because it seems like it'd just be a mess if you try to scale it. In a future, better, world, I'd like users to be able to just download a single file transparently if they need to format a new style. Imagine going to a web repository and typing "mla" and getting back whatever style file you need. Bruce From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Sep 13 21:56:55 2004 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DEusF2013481 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:56:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([81.103.191.36]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040913145515.YTSO20874.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.101]>; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:55:15 +0100 Message-ID: <4145B56E.6000002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:57:50 +0100 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040830) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.85.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:56:55 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > > But aside from that, with your suggestion David, doesn't that mean > changing styles by definition means changing XSLT code (e.g. creating > new templates and/or stylesheets)? > surely the mla.xsl would just import common.xsl, which had the schema-like checks? > If as I assume yes, I'm trying to avoid that because it seems like > it'd just be a mess if you try to scale it. In a future, better, > world, I'd like users to be able to just download a single file > transparently if they need to format a new style. Imagine going to a > web repository and typing "mla" and getting back whatever style file > you need. wouldn'tI fill in a web form, and it would generate a style on the fly? sebastian From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Sep 13 22:02:40 2004 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DF2dqA014293 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:02:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([81.103.191.36]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040913150250.QFF2251.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.101]>; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:02:50 +0100 Message-ID: <4145B6C7.4080602@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:03:35 +0100 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040830) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Carlisle Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.85.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:02:40 -0000 David Carlisle wrote: >I think Bruce wants to validate the rendering application which is a >simplified template language: so if you put first, then the >publisher information coming from te hsource doc comes out first. > > ah, OK, understood. I was confusing .bib files with .bst files. >Given that it's implemented in XSLT though a reasonable alternative >would not be to use any schema language and just put the checks into the >xslt, the XSLT template handling this could easily be made to moan if >there wasn't exactly one publisher child, and if the XSLT is doing that, >having a schema validation step doesn't really win you very much. > > Good idea. The processing application probably always wants to check the syntax anyway Sebastian From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Mon Sep 13 22:12:32 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DFCWAs015813 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:12:32 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: T+juGgG3rVVe4z+fu2CLbA 1095088351 Received: from [134.53.57.141] (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C17FC154FA for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <4145B56E.6000002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145B56E.6000002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5388B950-0597-11D9-B234-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:12:28 -0400 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:12:32 -0000 On Sep 13, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > wouldn't I fill in a web form, and it would generate a style on the > fly? Yeah, that too. Ideally, it'd already be there though. OK, so you guys are telling me not to worry about constraining things too tightly in the schema. I guess this suggests using patterns like ( publisher | place )*. So do you suggest NOT using interleave for the RNG-only version? I'd want to do that only to make entry and editing easier (if I user chooses place first, there only option for a next choice is publisher). Bruce From bob@objfac.com Tue Sep 14 00:20:12 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (postfix@pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8DHKBfx033352 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:20:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (adsl-68-127-155-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.127.155.139]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F4614968B; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4145D6C8.3020003@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:20:08 -0700 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang and xsd-friendly schemas References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:20:12 -0000 Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > sometimes I wonder what the point of interleave is. if you want x, y and z, > but don't care about the order, why not specify an order? Yes, for DTD/XSD, where element order is significant, they are usually specified as unordered, e.g., (a|b)*, but where element order is unimportant, they are usually specified as ordered, e.g., (a,b). (I think of this as Cowan's Rule.) However, the former case may be too loose (allow more occurrences than are semantically meaningful), while the latter is overly restrictive. Interleave can help in both those circumstances. >> or even something equivalent and >> xsd/dtd-friendly such as (x,((y,z?)|(z,y?))|y,((x,z?)|(z,x?))... etc >> > thats not technically manageable over a certain number of elements, > surely? Surely. Bob Foster > Sebastian From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu Sep 23 19:45:21 2004 Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com (frontend1.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i8NCjKvd003805 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:45:21 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: DofouFdGitKyN+4nSG79Vg 1095943518 Received: from [134.53.34.159] (ip134-053-034-159.s34.muohio.edu [134.53.34.159]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC2AC156AE for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <80CDB6C2-0D5E-11D9-9C92-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:45:52 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Subject: [relaxng-user] extensibility question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:45:22 -0000 I have a schema that I wrote in conjunction with an OpenOffice engineer at Sun. It is a namespaced schema for citation coding, and has recently been approved for inclusion in the OOo file format. I'd like to publish the schema, but I want to modify it in such a way that it can be easily customized for use in other document languages (say WordML, which is an XML Schema of course). Does anyone have any suggestions on how to do this? I'll paste the relevant code below, with comments. Bruce ====== default namespace xbc = "http://purl.org/NET/xbiblio/cite/1.0" start = citation-element ## A citation consists of two elements; one the structural source data ## and the other the presentational display. The latter's content will ## thus depend on that document language in which it is embedded. citation-element = element citation { citation-source-element, citation-body-element? } [... snip ...] ## We leave the element to contain the rendered code uncontrolled ## for now. I'd like this to be defined in such a way that it can be ## most cleanly modified for use in different document standards. citation-body-element = element citation-body { anyStuff } anyStuff = element * { mixed { (anyStuff | attribute * { text })* } } From hugues.caubel@airbus.com Mon Oct 11 23:01:00 2004 Received: from eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net (eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net [194.51.201.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9BG0xtZ034180 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:01:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from conversion-daemon.eads-relay1.cesson.gm-adm by eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) id <0I5F00B01C6WK4@eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net> (original mail from hugues.caubel@airbus.com) for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:38:54 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp ([172.24.21.17]) by eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I5F00DZWCOSZ8@eads-av-smtp1.gmessaging.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:38:52 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9BEeeEX015341 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:40:40 +0200 Received: from fr0-mailrt11.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.25]) by fr0-mailsp02.res.airbus.corp (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9BEee2Y015337; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:40:40 +0200 Received: from fr0-mailrt03.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.22]) by fr0-mailrt11.res.airbus.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:38:56 +0200 Received: from FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp ([152.9.126.5]) by fr0-mailrt03.res.airbus.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:38:56 +0200 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:38:55 +0200 From: "CAUBEL, Hugues" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] relaxNG schema for W3C schema To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Message-id: <8D6581C22F494340878EF8F6A0EBABB383089E@FR0-MAILMB10.res.airbus.corp> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-topic: [relaxng-user] relaxNG schema for W3C schema Thread-index: AcSZmCVXXEqxIDrbS8qL7Cqw9b88XAWBzxjA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2004 14:38:56.0216 (UTC) FILETIME=[097EF580:01C4AFA0] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:01:01 -0000 Sorry for this late reply, I just want to tell you your solution works. thanks for your help hugues > -----Original Message----- > From: MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) [mailto:EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp] > Sent: 13 September 2004 15:47 > To: CAUBEL, Hugues > Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxNG schema for W3C schema > > > > On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:23:01 +0200 > "CAUBEL, Hugues" wrote: > > > xmlschema.rng:718:18: error: conflicting ID-types for > attribute "id" of element > >"include" from namespace " http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" > > This error happens when (1) some attribute declaration has a > wildcard matching > absolutely any namespace and (2) you have an ID attribute > somewhere else in your schema. > > There are two solutions. One is to make the wildcard match > all namespaces EXCEPT > the namespace of the element declaration having that ID > attribute. The other is > to convert the ID attribute to a string attribute. > > In your case, I would rewrite ... with > ns="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"/> > . > > A fundamendal reasons is as follows. In DTD, an application > program can determine whether an attribute is ID by examining the attribute name > and the parent element name. > The DTD Compatibility specification of RELAX NG is intended > to mimic DTDs and ensures this simplicity. > > Hope this helps. > > Cheers, > -- > MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) > > > This e-mail is intended only for the above addressee. It may contain privileged information. If you are not the addressee you must not copy, distribute, disclose or use any of the information in it. If you have received it in error please delete it and immediately notify the sender. Security Notice: all e-mail, sent to or from this address, may be accessed by someone other than the recipient, for system management and security reasons. This access is controlled under Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, Lawful Business Practises. From p.amat@cadwin.com Wed Oct 13 15:00:56 2004 Received: from srv-01.domaine1.cadwin.com ([217.167.42.235]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9D80tUt019964 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:00:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from srv-02.domaine1.cadwin.com ([192.43.189.131]) by srv-01.domaine1.cadwin.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:00:53 +0200 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4B0FA.C33CAD24" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:00:53 +0200 Message-ID: <6E3688CC304B474D91C0477EAA41637415FB16@srv-02.domaine1.cadwin.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: attribute list not case sensitive Thread-Index: AcSw+sLbTmBfklFTQGuQ7LAdtKp77w== From: "Philippe Amat" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2004 08:00:53.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3529BA0:01C4B0FA] Subject: [relaxng-user] attribute list not case sensitive X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:00:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4B0FA.C33CAD24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 How to make a list of attibuts which is not case sensitive. I have a solution : =20 ATTR_type =3D attribute type {xsd:token {pattern =3D "[Ss][Yy][Ss][Tt][Ee][Mm]"} | xsd:token {pattern =3D "[Mm][Ee][Nn][Uu]"}} =20 Have you another solution?. =20 Thank you. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4B0FA.C33CAD24 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

How to make a list of attibuts which is not = case sensitive.

I have a solution :

 

ATTR_type  =3D attribute type {xsd:token = {pattern =3D "[Ss][Yy][Ss][Tt][Ee][Mm]"} |

        = ;            =                =        xsd:token {pattern =3D "[Mm][Ee][Nn][Uu]"}}

 

 Have you another = solution?.

 

Thank you.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4B0FA.C33CAD24-- From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Sun Oct 17 18:50:39 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9HBocrl070248 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:50:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (h223126.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.114.223.126]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8626EFB7 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:50:36 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:50:16 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] extensibility question In-Reply-To: <80CDB6C2-0D5E-11D9-9C92-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> References: <80CDB6C2-0D5E-11D9-9C92-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer-Plugin: AntiSpam for Becky!2 Ver.2.008 Message-Id: <20041017204841.E1F8.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.11.02 [ja] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:50:40 -0000 On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:45:52 -0400 "Bruce D'Arcus" wrote: > I'd like to publish the schema, but I want to modify it in such a way > that it can be easily customized for use in other document languages > (say WordML, which is an XML Schema of course). Does anyone have any > suggestions on how to do this? I'll paste the relevant code below, > with comments. At present, the best solution is to combine RELAX NG and NRL. Hopefully, ISO/IEC DSDL Part 4 will supersede NRL next year. See http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=2125 Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From kk@kohsuke.org Mon Oct 18 10:53:14 2004 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dsl027-181-229.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.27.181.229]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i9I3rDep073513 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:53:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: (melon started for [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:53:05 -0800 Message-ID: <41733E21.5080209@kohsuke.org> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:53:05 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] attribute list not case sensitive References: <6E3688CC304B474D91C0477EAA41637415FB16@srv-02.domaine1.cadwin.com> In-Reply-To: <6E3688CC304B474D91C0477EAA41637415FB16@srv-02.domaine1.cadwin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MTA: MELON SMTP Server version 1.28 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:53:14 -0000 Philippe Amat wrote: > Have you another solution?. Define your own case insensitive datatype library. See http://thaiopensource.com/relaxng/pluggable-datatypes.html -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Oct 20 04:51:09 2004 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9JLp8Xg002496 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:51:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([81.103.191.36]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20041019215121.KJTM12530.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:51:21 +0100 Message-ID: <41758C8C.9060907@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:52:12 +0100 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Clark References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040913072757.00bdba10@pop.storm.ca> <41458ED8.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131250.NAA20690@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145A1E4.6050009@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <4145A765.4050703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <200409131408.PAA21229@penguin.nag.co.uk> <4145B56E.6000002@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <5388B950-0597-11D9-B234-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> In-Reply-To: <5388B950-0597-11D9-B234-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] rdf schema broken with trang? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:51:10 -0000 If I take http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-rdf-syntax-grammar-20030123/rdfxml.rng (which is in fact a compact syntax file, despit the rng suffix) and convert it to RNG, and then convert it back, I get an error from trang: [spqr-ibm]/TEI/P5/Test:trangs rdfxml.rng test.rnc Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output.encode(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output.encodedText(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output.access$1900(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output$NameClassOutput.visitNsName(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit.NsNameNameClass.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output$NameClassOutput.visitChoice(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit.ChoiceNameClass.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output$NameClassOutput.visitAnyName(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit.AnyNameNameClass.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output$PatternOutput.nameClassed(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output$PatternOutput.visitElement(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit.ElementPattern.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output$ComponentOutput.visitDefine(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit.DefineComponent.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output.innerBody(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output.topLevel(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.Output.output(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.RncOutputFormat.outputPattern(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.rnc.RncOutputFormat.output(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver.doMain(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver.main(Unknown Source) Any suggestions? an error in trang, or an error in the schema? Sebastian Rahtz PS why do I want to do this? because I want to include the RDF in my own XML syntax schema, and then convert the whole shebang to RNC From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Tue Oct 26 21:10:15 2004 Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net (mail1.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.201]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9QEAEtA080627 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:10:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 12880 invoked from network); 26 Oct 2004 14:10:14 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 26 Oct 2004 14:10:13 -0000 Message-ID: <417E5AC4.5050605@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:10:12 -0400 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Installing custom datatype libraries X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:10:15 -0000 I'm having trouble getting my (or any) custom datatype library to work on Mac OS X, java 1.4.2 (Haven't tested other platforms yet). For instance, with the Jing sample library I get this: $ export CLASSPATH=./datatype-sample.jar $ jing datatype-sample.rng valid.xml compileSchema threw a SAXException class class org.xml.sax.SAXParseException /Users/elharo/Desktop/Downloads/jing-20030619/sample/datatype/datatype-sample.rng:4:32: fatal: datatype library "http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/datatypes/sample" not recognized Hmm, let's make sure it really is in the CLASSPATH: $ java com.thaiopensource.datatype.sample.SimpleDatatypeLibrary Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/relaxng/datatype/Datatype Yep, seems to be there. Otherwise it would complain about not finding the SimpleDatatypeLibrary class. Any suggestions? Is there some other way to tell Jing to find custom type libraries? -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Wed Oct 27 03:46:26 2004 Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net (mail1.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.201]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9QKkQsK026937 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:46:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 8237 invoked from network); 26 Oct 2004 20:46:25 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 26 Oct 2004 20:46:25 -0000 Message-ID: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:46:24 -0400 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Validating in 1.5 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:46:26 -0000 Has anyone gotten the new javax.xml.validation library in java 1.5/JAXP 1.3 to work with RELAX NG? From the IllegalArgumentException I'm getting when I try to load a RELAX NG schema factory, I'm guessing there's no RELAX NG implementation bundled with the JDK. Is there one I can download and install somewhere? Thanks. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From ndw@nwalsh.com Wed Oct 27 03:53:37 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9QKrau5027854 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:53:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from phys-bur-1 ([129.148.9.72]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9QKrVNJ021707 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0I6700901M0WOD@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-35-8.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.35.8]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I67006PSM17BX@bur-mail1.east.sun.com>; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CMYJu-0007ml-00; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:53:30 -0400 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:53:29 -0400 From: Norman Walsh In-reply-to: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <87sm81ciba.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) References: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> Cc: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Validating in 1.5 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:53:37 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain / Elliotte Harold was heard to say: | Has anyone gotten the new javax.xml.validation library in java | 1.5/JAXP 1.3 to work with RELAX NG? From the IllegalArgumentException | I'm getting when I try to load a RELAX NG schema factory, I'm guessing | there's no RELAX NG implementation bundled with the JDK. Is there one | I can download and install somewhere? Thanks. I think that's right, there isn't one in the JDK. I'm pretty sure Kohsuke has one :-), but I haven't played with it recently. Pointer, please, Kohsuke? Be seeing you, norm -- Norman Walsh | The human race consists of the http://nwalsh.com/ | dangerously insane and such as are | not.--Mark Twain --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBBfrlJOyltUcwYWjsRAsUKAKCb/QeNpJBWi2iKaih29Z3R4O8VXgCgsnM4 6e1JGtvFe7B1MIRYO+Qvc8s= =/Wry -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mikefz@wyeast.net Wed Oct 27 04:40:59 2004 Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9QLexfu032536 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:40:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (rfb.rfburst.com [66.119.143.249]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i9QLeqP1013427; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:40:53 -0600 Message-ID: <417EC433.4010600@wyeast.net> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:40:03 -0600 From: Mike Fitzgerald User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elliotte Harold Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Validating in 1.5 References: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> In-Reply-To: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: mikefz@wyeast.net Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:40:59 -0000 I've tried this with the same result (exception), though it seems to work fine with XML Schema. I'd like to hear the answer to this question, too. -Mike Elliotte Harold wrote: > Has anyone gotten the new javax.xml.validation library in java > 1.5/JAXP 1.3 to work with RELAX NG? From the IllegalArgumentException > I'm getting when I try to load a RELAX NG schema factory, I'm guessing > there's no RELAX NG implementation bundled with the JDK. Is there one > I can download and install somewhere? Thanks. > From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Wed Oct 27 05:05:54 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9QM5rrK035147 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:05:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9QM5rNH029864 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:05:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6700DNGPDRP5@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:05:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6700ENOPDRJY@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:05:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:05:52 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi In-reply-to: <87sm81ciba.fsf@nwalsh.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <417ECA40.7020206@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) References: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> <87sm81ciba.fsf@nwalsh.com> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Validating in 1.5 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:05:54 -0000 Norman Walsh wrote: > / Elliotte Harold was heard to say: > | Has anyone gotten the new javax.xml.validation library in java > | 1.5/JAXP 1.3 to work with RELAX NG? From the IllegalArgumentException > | I'm getting when I try to load a RELAX NG schema factory, I'm guessing > | there's no RELAX NG implementation bundled with the JDK. Is there one > | I can download and install somewhere? Thanks. > > I think that's right, there isn't one in the JDK. I'm pretty sure > Kohsuke has one :-), but I haven't played with it recently. Pointer, > please, Kohsuke? http://www.kohsuke.org/jarv/tiger/ -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From kk@kohsuke.org Fri Oct 29 21:24:34 2004 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dsl027-181-229.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.27.181.229]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id i9TEOUK0020097 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:24:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: (melon started for [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:00:19 -0800 Message-ID: <417EC8F3.90105@kohsuke.org> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:00:19 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> <87sm81ciba.fsf@nwalsh.com> In-Reply-To: <87sm81ciba.fsf@nwalsh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MTA: MELON SMTP Server version 1.28 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Validating in 1.5 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:24:35 -0000 Norman Walsh wrote: > / Elliotte Harold was heard to say: > | Has anyone gotten the new javax.xml.validation library in java > | 1.5/JAXP 1.3 to work with RELAX NG? From the IllegalArgumentException > | I'm getting when I try to load a RELAX NG schema factory, I'm guessing > | there's no RELAX NG implementation bundled with the JDK. Is there one > | I can download and install somewhere? Thanks. > > I think that's right, there isn't one in the JDK. I'm pretty sure > Kohsuke has one :-), but I haven't played with it recently. Pointer, > please, Kohsuke? http://www.kohsuke.org/jarv/tiger/ -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Fri Oct 29 22:22:09 2004 Received: from mail4.speakeasy.net (mail4.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.204]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i9TFM9if027173 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:22:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 12996 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2004 15:22:08 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 29 Oct 2004 15:22:08 -0000 Message-ID: <4182601F.1070601@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:22:07 -0400 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Validating in 1.5 References: <417EB7A0.2020607@metalab.unc.edu> <87sm81ciba.fsf@nwalsh.com> <417EC8F3.90105@kohsuke.org> In-Reply-To: <417EC8F3.90105@kohsuke.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:22:10 -0000 Thanks. That looks like what I need, but it doesn't seem to be working: [elharo@stallion elharo]$ java -Xbootclasspath/p:jing.jar:isorelax.jar:iso-relax-tiger.jar Relax greeting.rng greeting.xml This implementation does not support RELAX NG. http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0 java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0 at javax.xml.validation.SchemaFactory.newInstance(SchemaFactory.java:186) at Relax.main(Relax.java:19) Relax is my own class. I tried this on both classpath and bootclasspath. The line it's dying on is just loading the RELAX NG schema factory. Up to that point the code is: import javax.xml.*; import javax.xml.validation.*; import javax.xml.transform.Source; import javax.xml.transform.stream.StreamSource; import java.io.*; import org.xml.sax.*; public class Relax implements ErrorHandler { public static void main(String[] args) { if (args.length < 2) { System.out.println("Usage: java Relax schema.rng file.xml"); return; } Schema schema; try { SchemaFactory factory = SchemaFactory.newInstance(XMLConstants.RELAXNG_NS_URI); schema = factory.newSchema(new File(args[1])); } // ... The web page says, "this release is designed to work with Tiger beta 1, and it probably won't work with the official Tiger release (as the validation API is still not finialized)" Has anyone gotten this to work with the final 1.5 yet? Or are there any other JAR files I'm missing? -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 2 20:03:07 2004 Received: from mail2.speakeasy.net (mail2.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.202]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2D36lM077266 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:03:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 1958 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 13:03:06 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail2.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Nov 2004 13:03:05 -0000 Message-ID: <41878589.1030209@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 08:03:05 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Custom complex type libraries X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:03:07 -0000 RELAX NG allows one write custom type libraries for simple data types (i.e. PCDATA) in a variety of programming languages. Does this also extend to complex types, or is there any equivalent? For instance, could I write Java code to verify that the name of every child element was the name of a field in a particular table? (I don't really need to do that. It's just one example of something you can't do in pure RELAX NG that you could do in Java. There are many other possibilities.) -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Nov 2 20:20:36 2004 Received: from ratanakiri.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.37]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2DKa9q079012 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:20:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by ratanakiri.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id iA2DKTbq001088; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:20:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:20:28 -0500 From: John Cowan To: Elliotte Harold Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Custom complex type libraries Message-ID: <20041102132028.GU28511@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <41878589.1030209@metalab.unc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41878589.1030209@metalab.unc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:20:37 -0000 Elliotte Harold scripsit: > RELAX NG allows one write custom type libraries for simple data types > (i.e. PCDATA) in a variety of programming languages. Does this also > extend to complex types, or is there any equivalent? For instance, could > I write Java code to verify that the name of every child element was the > name of a field in a particular table? (I don't really need to do that. > It's just one example of something you can't do in pure RELAX NG that > you could do in Java. There are many other possibilities.) No, you couldn't. Complex types are represented by RNG patterns. (But if you have an actual use case, by all means bring it up -- such things may help create enough groundswell for RNG 2.0.) -- Here lies the Christian, John Cowan judge, and poet Peter, http://www.reutershealth.com Who broke the laws of God http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and man and metre. jcowan@reutershealth.com From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 2 20:45:26 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2DjP6I081485 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:45:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2DjL1w011186 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:45:21 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 11045-01-9 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:45:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2Dhphg011040 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:43:51 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:43:47 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:43:46 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA991BE032@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: dateTime thread-index: AcTA4fmNxQkaA3p9SqmUjjqj1sok/Q== From: "Pawson, David" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2004 13:43:47.0163 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA3C0AB0:01C4C0E1] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Subject: [relaxng-user] dateTime X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:45:26 -0000 http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#dateTime provides examples such as 2003-05-31T13:20:05.50-05:00 Trying, and failing, to generate content valid to using java DateFormat format = new SimpleDateFormat("yyyy-MM-dd'T'hh:mm:ss"); java.util.Date now= new java.util.Date(); String dtime = format.format(now); Can anyone help with the timezone formatting, to meet the +-xx:nn format please? I'm OK till the end of March... :-) Regards DaveP. **** snip here ***** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 2 21:53:50 2004 Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2ErnfY090087 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:53:50 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 27219 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 14:53:49 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Nov 2004 14:53:49 -0000 Message-ID: <41879F7C.1000601@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:53:48 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Installing custom datatype libraries Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:53:50 -0000 Hmm, OK, the problem seems to be related to using the executable jing script instead of the Java class directly. But there's still a problem. This time it loads the BalancedString library and then hits a NullPointerException inside com.thaiopensource.relaxng.jarv.VerifierHandlerImpl.reset(): ~/Desktop/Downloads/jing-20030619/sample/datatype$ java -classpath ../../bin/jing.jar:datatype-sample.jar com.thaiopensource.relaxng.util.Driver datatype-sample.rng valid.xml Loaded balanced string Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.jarv.VerifierHandlerImpl.reset(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.PatternValidator.(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.jarv.VerifierHandlerImpl.(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.jarv.VerifierImpl.(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.jarv.SchemaImpl.newVerifier(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.validate.jarv.VerifierFactorySchemaReader$SchemaImpl.createValidator(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.validate.ValidationDriver.validate(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.util.Driver.doMain(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.util.Driver.main(Unknown Source) Any ideas? has anyone gotten the sample to work? For what it's worth, I've seen this on Mac OS X with java 1.4.2 and Linux with Java 1.5. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 2 23:02:24 2004 Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net (mail1.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.201]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2G2NlG098881 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:02:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 29287 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 16:02:20 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Nov 2004 16:02:20 -0000 Message-ID: <4187AF8B.8040807@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:02:19 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Installing custom datatype libraries References: <41879F7C.1000601@metalab.unc.edu> In-Reply-To: <41879F7C.1000601@metalab.unc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:02:24 -0000 I've been able top get this to work with Sun's MSV, though I had to directly call the driver class to do it. It did not work when merely using java -jar. ~/Desktop/Downloads/jing-20030619/sample/datatype$ java -classpath datatype-sample.jar:/Users/elharo/Desktop/Downloads/msv-20030225/msv.jar com.sun.msv.driver.textui.Driver datatype-sample.rng valid.xml start parsing a grammar. Loaded balanced string validating valid.xml the document is valid. There may be some weird classpath issue with runnable jar archives here. Hmm, yep that's what's happening. Quoting from the docs for the java interpreter -jar option, "When you use this option, the JAR file is the source of all user classes, and other user class path settings are ignored." Learn something new every day, I suppose. There's still an issue with Jing though. It does not work even when I do not use -classpath. I think it may be failing to set an error handler. Time permitting I'll try to debug this. Is there a public CVS server or a bug database for Jing anywhere? -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Nov 2 23:42:31 2004 Received: from ratanakiri.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.37]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2GgVEr004232 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:42:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by ratanakiri.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id iA2GgPHK002349; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:42:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:42:32 -0500 From: John Cowan To: Elliotte Harold Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Installing custom datatype libraries Message-ID: <20041102164232.GB19012@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <41879F7C.1000601@metalab.unc.edu> <4187AF8B.8040807@metalab.unc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4187AF8B.8040807@metalab.unc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:42:35 -0000 Elliotte Harold scripsit: > There may be some weird classpath issue with runnable > jar archives here. Hmm, yep that's what's happening. Quoting from the > docs for the java interpreter -jar option, "When you use this option, > the JAR file is the source of all user classes, and other user class > path settings are ignored." That's why I distribute a patched version of Saxon 6.x with TagSoup incorporated into the jar, so that people can use the -jar option as they expect to be able to. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com http://www.reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Humpty Dump Dublin squeaks through his norse Humpty Dump Dublin hath a horrible vorse But for all his kinks English / And his irismanx brogues Humpty Dump Dublin's grandada of all rogues. --Cousin James From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 3 01:59:32 2004 Received: from mail2.speakeasy.net (mail2.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.202]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA2IxV4R022238 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:59:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 26656 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail2.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Nov 2004 18:59:31 -0000 Message-ID: <4187D912.4000904@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:59:30 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jjc@jclark.com Subject: [relaxng-user] hashCode method in Datatype X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:59:32 -0000 The JavaDoc for the valueHashCode(Object) method in org.relaxng.datatype.Datatype states: public int valueHashCode(java.lang.Object value) Computes the hash code for a value object, which is consistent with the sameValue method. What should this method do if the value object passed as an argument is not an instance of the datatype returned by createValue()? Throw an exception? Return that object's hashCode? Something else? The spec does not clarify. For sameValue() the spec states. "The behavior is undefined if objects not created by this type are passed. It is the caller's responsibility to ensure that value objects belong to this type." However there's no such wording for valueHashCode. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From julian@sektor37.de Wed Nov 3 05:59:58 2004 Received: from sektor37.de (p15103123.pureserver.info [217.160.129.185]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id iA2Mxvcb053251 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:59:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 19217 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 22:59:51 -0000 Received: from p50813ef1.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO ?10.0.0.7?) (julian@80.129.62.241) by sektor37.de with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 22:59:51 -0000 Message-ID: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:59:56 +0100 From: Julian Scheid User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:59:59 -0000 I'm working on a Relax NG implementation which needs to convert data values two-way, both string->object and object->string. I'd like to use the datatype library interface for this purpose, but I can't seem to find a method complementing DataType.createValue(), one that converts a value object to a string. Is there a reason for the API's read-only design, or am I missing something? Julian From robert@leftwich.info Wed Nov 3 07:30:58 2004 Received: from gizmo04bw.bigpond.com (gizmo04bw.bigpond.com [144.140.70.14]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id iA30UuOs063976 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:30:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 2330 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 00:30:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO BWMAM18.bigpond.com) (144.135.24.118) by gizmo04bw.bigpond.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 00:30:49 -0000 Received: from cwpp-p-144-134-225-71.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.225.71]) by BWMAM18.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_4_2a 288/51698860) with SMTP id 51698860; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:30:49 +1000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.bigpond.com (WinRoute Pro 4.2.5) with SMTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:31:34 +1100 Message-ID: <418826E6.7000003@leftwich.info> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:31:34 +1100 From: Robert Leftwich User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] RNC modularisation redux X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:30:58 -0000 I have a similar problem to Sean McGrath as described in http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user/2004-July/000544.html and also Adrian Robert in http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng-comment/200407/msg00005.html but there was no follow up to Sean's last email and there was only the one answer to Adrian's. Given that it seems to work as required in my (limited) testing, is specifying 'combine="choice" for every in the base schemas (as suggested in http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng-comment/200407/msg00007.html) the best way to go? Robert From sean.mcgrath@propylon.com Wed Nov 3 15:12:43 2004 Received: from mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.29]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id iA38ChDu011670 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:12:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 55738 messnum 5123211 invoked from network[159.134.220.223/159-134-220-223.as1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net]); 3 Nov 2004 08:12:37 -0000 Received: from 159-134-220-223.as1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (159.134.220.223) by mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 55738) with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 08:12:37 -0000 Message-ID: <418892FF.6030607@propylon.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:12:47 +0000 From: Sean McGrath Organization: Propylon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Leftwich Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RNC modularisation redux References: <418826E6.7000003@leftwich.info> In-Reply-To: <418826E6.7000003@leftwich.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: sean.mcgrath@propylon.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:12:44 -0000 Robert Leftwich wrote: > I have a similar problem to Sean McGrath as described in > http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user/2004-July/000544.html and > also Adrian > Robert in > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng-comment/200407/msg00005.html > but > there was no follow up to Sean's last email and there was only the one > answer to > Adrian's. Given that it seems to work as required in my (limited) > testing, is > specifying 'combine="choice" for every in the base schemas (as > suggested in > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng-comment/200407/msg00007.html) > the > best way to go? Robert, An update from my own work in this area. Yes, using combine = "choice" gets over the multiple defines error but, unfortunately trang generates an error producing XSD if any file is included more than once. There appear to be good reasons for this :-) I tweaked the trang souce to warn rather than generate an error just to see what would happen. The result was XSDs that where missing element declarations and other such things. So, I switched tack. I wrote a Python program that "de-includes" includes in the compact syntax generating a single output RNC file. As well as resolving the includes, a couple of other things were necessary: 1. Hoisting the datatype declarations to the top 2. Hoisting the namespace declarations to the top (including any default namespace) 3. Generating an error if multiple default namespace declarations found 4. Comment out any "start" definitions in any included RNCs The result monolithic RNCs work great. I treat them as compiled, freeze dried snapshots of a schema at a point in time. Great for knowing exactly what iteration of each module was used in a schema at any one moment. As a bonus prize, trang generates modularised XSDs - one for each namespace in the monolithic RNC. Sean http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Nov 4 00:37:50 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA3HbnRU077242 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 00:37:50 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3Hbnui017096 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:37:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00IRU6B0OT@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:37:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00BB66AZ9L@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:37:48 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:37:47 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion In-reply-to: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> To: Julian Scheid Message-id: <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) References: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:37:50 -0000 Julian Scheid wrote: > I'm working on a Relax NG implementation which needs to convert data > values two-way, both string->object and object->string. I'd like to use > the datatype library interface for this purpose, but I can't seem to > find a method complementing DataType.createValue(), one that converts a > value object to a string. Is there a reason for the API's read-only > design, or am I missing something? I guess it's just because value->string conversion wasn't necessary to build validators. -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Nov 4 00:59:58 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA3HxvVF080082 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 00:59:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3HxvNH019239 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:59:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00I4E7BVOT@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:59:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00BL77BQ9L@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:59:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:59:49 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] hashCode method in Datatype In-reply-to: <4187D912.4000904@metalab.unc.edu> To: Elliotte Harold Message-id: <41891C95.6060407@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) References: <4187D912.4000904@metalab.unc.edu> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, jjc@jclark.com X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:59:58 -0000 Elliotte Harold wrote: > The JavaDoc for the valueHashCode(Object) method in > org.relaxng.datatype.Datatype states: > > public int valueHashCode(java.lang.Object value) > > Computes the hash code for a value object, which is consistent with the > sameValue method. > > What should this method do if the value object passed as an argument is > not an instance of the datatype returned by createValue()? Throw an > exception? Return that object's hashCode? Something else? The spec does > not clarify. > > For sameValue() the spec states. "The behavior is undefined if objects > not created by this type are passed. It is the caller's responsibility > to ensure that value objects belong to this type." However there's no > such wording for valueHashCode. I suggest we put the same sentence to valueHashCode() -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From julian@sektor37.de Thu Nov 4 02:06:15 2004 Received: from sektor37.de (p15103123.pureserver.info [217.160.129.185]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id iA3J6Fdb088214 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 02:06:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 603 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 19:06:09 -0000 Received: from pd9e49245.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO ?10.0.0.7?) (julian@217.228.146.69) by sektor37.de with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 19:06:09 -0000 Message-ID: <41892C2A.80909@sektor37.de> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:06:18 +0100 From: Julian Scheid User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion References: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:06:16 -0000 Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote: > Julian Scheid wrote: > >> I'm working on a Relax NG implementation which needs to convert data >> values two-way, both string->object and object->string. I'd like to >> use the datatype library interface for this purpose, but I can't seem >> to find a method complementing DataType.createValue(), one that >> converts a value object to a string. Is there a reason for the API's >> read-only design, or am I missing something? > > > I guess it's just because value->string conversion wasn't necessary to > build validators. Thanks for your reply. Is there any interest in extending the scope of the datatype library API to cover code generators in addition to validators? This would require adding the value->string method and, more importantly, one for retrieving the value object type. Something along the lines of: public String createLiteral(Object value, ValidationContext ctx); public Class getValueType(); The latter method alone would be a very helpful addition to the API with regard to code generation. I understand that changing Datatype's definition means breaking compatibility, but what about introducing a subinterface or a separate interface for conversion/generation purposes? I think it would be a pity if code generators couldn't leverage datatype libraries, or would have to jump through hoops only because of this minor limitation. Julian From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Nov 4 02:31:09 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA3JV8A8091484 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 02:31:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3JV8ui026867 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:31:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00CQWBJVBK@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:31:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00LVYBJVOZ@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:31:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:31:06 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion In-reply-to: <41892C2A.80909@sektor37.de> To: Julian Scheid Message-id: <418931FA.1080501@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) References: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> <41892C2A.80909@sektor37.de> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:31:09 -0000 Julian Scheid wrote: > Thanks for your reply. Is there any interest in extending the scope of > the datatype library API to cover code generators in addition to validators? Code generators need substantially more than that. I can tell you that because I'm working on a databinding tool myself. First there's a problem with context. Suppose you have the QName type. You somehow have to declare a prefix to get a string representation out of arbitrary QName. Your proposal doesn't seem to address that. And even if you fix that, it's still not enough for code generators. They have to know how to create an instance of QName, not a string representation. You'd like to be able to generate something like: public static final QName ABC = new QName("foo","bar"); without knowing anything about the actual datatype. That's hard. As you see, this is far beyond just getting the string representation or knowing the value type. > I think it would be a pity if code generators couldn't leverage datatype > libraries, or would have to jump through hoops only because of this > minor limitation. I agree that it's unfortunate that code generators can't take advantage of pluggable datatypes. But I don't think that's because there's a "minor limitation" in the API. Or are you talking about different kinds of "code generators"? -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From julian@sektor37.de Thu Nov 4 03:53:13 2004 Received: from sektor37.de (p15103123.pureserver.info [217.160.129.185]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id iA3KrDDH001852 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 03:53:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 7516 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 20:53:07 -0000 Received: from pd9e49245.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO ?10.0.0.7?) (julian@217.228.146.69) by sektor37.de with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 20:53:07 -0000 Message-ID: <4189453D.8050703@sektor37.de> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:53:17 +0100 From: Julian Scheid User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion References: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> <41892C2A.80909@sektor37.de> <418931FA.1080501@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <418931FA.1080501@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:53:14 -0000 Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote: > And even if you fix that, it's still not enough for code generators. > They have to know how to create an instance of QName, not a string > representation. You'd like to be able to generate something like: > > public static final QName ABC = new QName("foo","bar"); Actually I don't need this, I'd just like to generate: Datatype qnameDatatype = ...; QName abc = (QName)qnameDatatype.createValue(literal, context); where 'literal' is some value read from an XML stream. I assume that's because I'm ok with the generated code depending on the datatype library. > I agree that it's unfortunate that code generators can't take advantage > of pluggable datatypes. But I don't think that's because there's a > "minor limitation" in the API. For the purposes of my generator all that's missing for read access is a getValueType() method. I agree that when it comes to transforming to literals the issue is somewhat more complex than I indicated. But isn't what's needed basically a registerNamespace(String uri, String prefix) method in the context? Julian From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Nov 4 07:03:34 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA403Xx6024557 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:03:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA403Wui025144 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:03:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00CUYO5WBK@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:03:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00B1WO5VAA@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:03:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:03:30 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion In-reply-to: <4189453D.8050703@sektor37.de> To: Julian Scheid Message-id: <418971D2.2010506@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) References: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> <41892C2A.80909@sektor37.de> <418931FA.1080501@sun.com> <4189453D.8050703@sektor37.de> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 00:03:35 -0000 Julian Scheid wrote: > Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote: >> And even if you fix that, it's still not enough for code generators. >> They have to know how to create an instance of QName, not a string >> representation. You'd like to be able to generate something like: >> >> public static final QName ABC = new QName("foo","bar"); > > Actually I don't need this, I'd just like to generate: > > Datatype qnameDatatype = ...; > QName abc = (QName)qnameDatatype.createValue(literal, context); > > where 'literal' is some value read from an XML stream. > > I assume that's because I'm ok with the generated code depending on the > datatype library. Oh, OK. But if you are doing this, can't you just remember what literal you passed in to Datatype.createValue, along with the context that you passed in? You can also use .getClass() to find out what the type of the value is for that particular literal. > I agree that when it comes to transforming to literals the issue is > somewhat more complex than I indicated. But isn't what's needed > basically a registerNamespace(String uri, String prefix) method in the > context? No. My point was that generating code like the following is a lot more work: public static final QName ABC = new QName("foo","bar"); It's clearly not just an issue of declaring a new namespace. -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From gtxrg-relaxng-user@gmane.org Thu Nov 4 20:21:16 2004 Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA4DLFOo008941 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:21:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CPhYA-0007qj-00 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:21:14 +0100 Received: from dhcp-230-2e74.gatwick.eur.slb.com ([136.250.230.74]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:21:14 +0100 Received: from pete.forman by dhcp-230-2e74.gatwick.eur.slb.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:21:14 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Pete Forman Organization: WesternGeco, Gatwick, UK Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA991BE032@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-230-2e74.gatwick.eur.slb.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Military Intelligence (RC5 Windows)) Sender: news Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: dateTime X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:21:18 -0000 X-Original-Date: 04 Nov 2004 13:03:39 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:21:18 -0000 "Pawson, David" writes: > http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#dateTime provides > examples such as > > 2003-05-31T13:20:05.50-05:00 > [...] > Can anyone help with the timezone formatting, to meet > the +-xx:nn format please? Here is some code I use in standard Java. You might also check out http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/ import java.text.DecimalFormat; import java.text.SimpleDateFormat; import java.util.Date; import java.util.TimeZone; public class Now { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println(Now.getISO8601DateTime()); } public static String getISO8601DateTime() { SimpleDateFormat ISO8601Local = new SimpleDateFormat( "yyyy-MM-dd'T'HH:mm:ss"); TimeZone timeZone = TimeZone.getDefault(); ISO8601Local.setTimeZone(timeZone); DecimalFormat twoDigits = new DecimalFormat("00"); Date now = new Date(); int offset = ISO8601Local.getTimeZone().getOffset(now.getTime()); String sign = "+"; if (offset < 0) { offset = -offset; sign = "-"; } int hours = offset / 3600000; int minutes = (offset - hours * 3600000) / 60000; // As things stand any odd seconds in the offset are silently truncated. // Uncomment the next 5 lines to detect that rare circumstance. //if (offset != hours * 3600000 + minutes * 60000) { // // E.g. TZ=Asia/Riyadh87 // throw new RuntimeException("TimeZone offset (" + sign + offset + // " ms) is not an exact number of minutes"); //} String ISO8601Now = ISO8601Local.format(now) + sign + twoDigits.format(hours) + ":" + twoDigits.format(minutes); return ISO8601Now; } } -- Pete Forman -./\.- Disclaimer: This post is originated WesternGeco -./\.- by myself and does not represent pete.forman@westerngeco.com -./\.- opinion of Schlumberger, Baker http://petef.port5.com -./\.- Hughes or their divisions. From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Thu Nov 4 21:17:57 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iA4EHuHQ015213 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:17:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4EHh7H003901; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:17:43 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 03848-01-5; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:17:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4EFomg003719; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:15:50 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:15:45 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Re: dateTime Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:15:45 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA991BE04C@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Re: dateTime thread-index: AcTCcg/NBxPfw9T8SAaDiEH2AjTBsQABo2MQ From: "Pawson, David" To: "Pete Forman" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 14:15:45.0599 (UTC) FILETIME=[C689A4F0:01C4C278] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:17:57 -0000 -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Pete Forman [...] > Can anyone help with the timezone formatting, to meet > the +-xx:nn format please? Here is some code I use in standard Java. You might also check out http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/ Many thanks Pete. I've no problem with those odd seconds. Much appreciated. DaveP. ** snip here ** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From julian@sektor37.de Thu Nov 4 22:34:49 2004 Received: from sektor37.de (p15103123.pureserver.info [217.160.129.185]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id iA4FYmHA025295 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:34:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 16637 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2004 15:34:42 -0000 Received: from pd9e495ba.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO ?10.0.0.7?) (julian@217.228.149.186) by sektor37.de with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 15:34:42 -0000 Message-ID: <418A4C1C.2080202@sektor37.de> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:34:52 +0100 From: Julian Scheid User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Java datatype library: value object->string conversion References: <4188116C.6080602@sektor37.de> <4189176B.3020809@sun.com> <41892C2A.80909@sektor37.de> <418931FA.1080501@sun.com> <4189453D.8050703@sektor37.de> <418971D2.2010506@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <418971D2.2010506@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:34:50 -0000 Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote: > Oh, OK. But if you are doing this, can't you just remember what literal > you passed in to Datatype.createValue, along with the context that you > passed in? You can also use .getClass() to find out what the type of > the value is for that particular literal. Many thanks for your suggestions, but unfortunately this doesn't solve my problem. Please allow me to outline my situation briefly. I have a piece of software which reads a grammar and generates a parser class and a set of value classes reflecting this grammar. Suppose I feed a grammar to the system and this grammar contains the following fragment: ... Given this grammar, my system ought to generate a value class like the one below (scoping, getters and setters omitted, boxing issues ignored): class Address { ... Integer zipcode; } Let's call this "generation time"; at this time my system only deals with a grammar document - as opposed to runtime, when the generated code deals with a data document. In above example I assume that the "zipcode" Datatype's createValue() method returns objects of type Integer. But how can my system possibly know the type *at generation time*? In order to use getClass() it would have to call createValue() first, but what literal should it pass in? The createValue() implementation will likely only return an Integer if a valid zip code literal is being passed in, and fail otherwise. But my system doesn't have a sample zip code at this point in time, since it doesn't operate on a data document at generation time. All information it has at this point comes from the grammar, and that doesn't include a sample literal. This is why a getValueType() method would be very helpful in terms of code generation, at least for my approach to data binding. > >> I agree that when it comes to transforming to literals the issue is >> somewhat more complex than I indicated. But isn't what's needed >> basically a registerNamespace(String uri, String prefix) method in the >> context? > > > No. My point was that generating code like the following is a lot more > work: > > public static final QName ABC = new QName("foo","bar"); > > It's clearly not just an issue of declaring a new namespace. Let me try to approach the problem from a different angle and briefly recollect my understanding of QNames. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. A QName is a local name together with a namespace, where the namespace is identified by a URI. So a QName could be { foo, http://bar/baz }. In the following code, both "qname" attributes resolve to this particular QName, correct? When a QName is being read, the Datatype implementation can use the ValidationContext to resolve the prefix, yielding the URI. It would then store both the local name and the URI in some value object which represents the QName semantically. (So the prefix is only a syntactic construct and doesn't contribute to a QName semantically.) Later, when the QName is about to be converted "back" to a literal, the following is necessary in order to preserve the QName semantically: - a prefix needs to be chosen that doesn't conflict with another prefix. - the prefix needs to be bound to the URI "near" or "above" the literal in the output document. In addition, in terms of readability or "prettiness" of the output document - the same prefix should be used for the same URI all over the document - the prefix shouldn't be chosen arbitrarily but rather according to user preference, or in a way that a prefix that was used in an input document is preserved. Couldn't all of this be achieved rather easily by a method in the context object which, given a namespace URI, returns a prefix for this URI and remembers the binding so that the code which writes the XML document can output the binding appropriately? This new context method could use an approach for determining the prefix roughly like this: - lookup the prefix in some registry which has been initialized either by the user and/or by the system (if the data model hasn't been constructed from scratch but rather has been read from an XML document earlier) - reuse a binding, if a prefix has already been chosen for the namespace earlier in the output process - use a generic prefix if all else fails (like a:, b:, c: ...), possibly emitting a warning message. I may be completely off track, but to me it looks like all that's needed to solve the QName issue is this additional context method complementing resolveNamespacePrefix(). It seems to me that the facility required for output is essentially the inverse of the namespace resolution facility used for input. Am I missing something here? Thanks for your consideration, Julian From matthew@linuxfromscratch.org Sat Nov 20 22:00:11 2004 Received: from smtp.linuxfromscratch.org (postfix@belgarath.linuxfromscratch.org [216.171.238.83]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAKF0AZB066725 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:00:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: by smtp.linuxfromscratch.org (Postfix, from userid 108) id 94377176C; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:00:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (i-195-137-83-37.freedom2surf.net [195.137.83.37]) by smtp.linuxfromscratch.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1096B1745 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:00:01 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:01:16 +0000 From: Matthew Burgess Organization: Linux From Scratch User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on belgarath.linuxfromscratch.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 Subject: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG and system entities X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:00:11 -0000 Hi folks, From what I can gather, being a complete newbie to RELAX NG, system entities aren't usable with RELAX NG (and schema languages in general). In our current DTD setup, we are able to share common data between multiple documents like so: Each document has the following at the top: --- %general_entities; %package_entities; ]> --- It will then go on to do something like: --- &version; --- Where the version entity has been provided in "general.ent" and pulled in to the document by the system entity given above. This obviously reduces maintenance by only having to declare the entity once. According to http://www.dpawson.co.uk/relaxng/schema/design.html#d547e79 there is an EDML proposal which at a very quick glance would enable us to do what we *think* we need. So I really have two questions: 1) How do you guys share common data items between your XML documents when using RELAX NG? 2) Has anyone used EDML? How successful has that use been? Is it, as I think, applicable to our needs of sharing data between multiple XML documents? The main concern I have is the explicit support it would seem to require from XML parsers. Best regards, Matt. From smith@xml-doc.org Sat Nov 20 23:24:53 2004 Received: from sideshowbarker.vm.bytemark.co.uk (sideshowbarker.vm.bytemark.co.uk [212.13.211.65]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAKGOrMD074302 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:24:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from msmith by sideshowbarker.vm.bytemark.co.uk with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CVY2a-0005Iu-Kj; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 01:24:48 +0900 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 01:24:48 +0900 From: Michael Smith To: Matthew Burgess Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG and system entities Message-ID: <20041120162448.GA12297@sideshowbarker.net> References: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: smith@xml-doc.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on sideshowbarker.vm.bytemark.co.uk); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:24:55 -0000 --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Matthew Burgess writes: > Hi folks, > > From what I can gather, being a complete newbie to RELAX NG, system > entities aren't usable with RELAX NG (and schema languages in general). > > In our current DTD setup, we are able to share common data between > multiple documents like so: > > Each document has the following at the top: > > --- > > > %general_entities; > %package_entities; > ]> > --- You can do can keep your doc instances as is and your RELAX NG validator will resolve the entities just any DTD-based validator would. RELAX NG validator will read the internal subset. > So I really have two questions: > > 1) How do you guys share common data items between your XML documents > when using RELAX NG? See above > 2) Has anyone used EDML? How successful has that use been? Is it, as I > think, applicable to our needs of sharing data between multiple XML > documents? I don't think there are any implementations of EDML. It's just a draft proposal. There are also other ideas floating around about how to do internal subset-less entities. Basic idea is just to use names with namespace-prefixes, have your environment set up to resolve those in some way (grab from net or resolve URI to some copy stored locally) > The main concern I have is the explicit support it would > seem to require from XML parsers. Seems like it wouldn't require any support at all in existing parsers if you had a special tool for resolving entity refs -- just run that and pipe the output to your validator or XSL engine. Making such a tool is easy. You could make one now to process EDML syntax or whatever syntax you wanted to use. 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X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.12-gtk2-20040617 (GTK+ 2.4.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:53:35 -0000 On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 01:24:48 +0900 Michael Smith wrote: > Matthew Burgess writes: > > 2) Has anyone used EDML? How successful has that use been? Is it, as > > I > > think, applicable to our needs of sharing data between multiple XML > > documents? > > I don't think there are any implementations of EDML. It's just a > draft proposal. There are also other ideas floating around about So far as I know, it's pretty much a dead letter. The sort of support that it would need seems unlikely to appear. I'd support it, of course. ;-) > > The main concern I have is the explicit support it would > > seem to require from XML parsers. > > Seems like it wouldn't require any support at all in existing > parsers if you had a special tool for resolving entity refs -- > just run that and pipe the output to your validator or XSL engine. > Making such a tool is easy. You could make one now to process EDML > syntax or whatever syntax you wanted to use. > > Hard part is getting everyone to agree on a standard syntax to use. True enough. EDML may not be best-suited for pre-processing in this fashion, however. One of its design goals was to provide fulfillment of well-formedness requirements by using XML for definition. This still seems rather elegant to me, but it does mean that you kinda need to get the parser guys to agree to it. If you can't use the standard tools, then the ability to leverage standard tools gets you no where. No place to stand, as it were. Sorry. Amy! -- Amelia A. Lewis amyzing {at} talsever.com The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine. -- Indigo Girls From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Nov 21 01:18:56 2004 Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAKIIu1t083938 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 01:18:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041120181850.JDNY1121.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:18:50 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [81.103.191.36]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041120181850.MCXR1125.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:18:50 +0000 Message-ID: <419F8A53.6040904@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:17:55 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Burgess Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG and system entities References: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> In-Reply-To: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:18:57 -0000 Matthew Burgess wrote: > > From what I can gather, being a complete newbie to RELAX NG, system > entities aren't usable with RELAX NG (and schema languages in general). > The two are unrelated, really. Entity expansion takes place at the XML parsing stage, before validation by schema is applied. Any XML processor has to read a DTD subset, grok the entities declared there, and expand instances later. You can't _declare_ entities in a schema, as you used to be able to with external DTDs, thats the difference. Your example will carry on working just fine, if you just remove SYSTEM "myDoctype.dtd" and use a RelaxNG validator or other XML tool. Well, maybe some tools will protest, but the ones I use daily (jing, libxml2, rnv, nxml-mode) do what I expect. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Nov 21 01:19:15 2004 Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAKIJECg083980 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 01:19:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041120181909.TDAF3998.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:19:09 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [81.103.191.36]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041120181909.FEKC1113.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:19:09 +0000 Message-ID: <419F8A66.30409@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:18:14 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Burgess Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG and system entities References: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> In-Reply-To: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:19:15 -0000 Matthew Burgess wrote: > > From what I can gather, being a complete newbie to RELAX NG, system > entities aren't usable with RELAX NG (and schema languages in general). > The two are unrelated, really. Entity expansion takes place at the XML parsing stage, before validation by schema is applied. Any XML processor has to read a DTD subset, grok the entities declared there, and expand instances later. You can't _declare_ entities in a schema, as you used to be able to with external DTDs, thats the difference. Your example will carry on working just fine, if you just remove SYSTEM "myDoctype.dtd" and use a RelaxNG validator or other XML tool. Well, maybe some tools will protest, but the ones I use daily (jing, libxml2, rnv) do what I expect. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk From matthew@linuxfromscratch.org Mon Nov 22 02:26:03 2004 Received: from smtp.linuxfromscratch.org (postfix@belgarath.linuxfromscratch.org [216.171.238.83]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iALJQ3F7098486 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:26:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: by smtp.linuxfromscratch.org (Postfix, from userid 108) id 479F518A7; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:26:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (i-195-137-83-37.freedom2surf.net [195.137.83.37]) by smtp.linuxfromscratch.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAAA1788; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:25:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <41A0EC14.9020903@linuxfromscratch.org> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:27:16 +0000 From: Matthew Burgess Organization: Linux From Scratch User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG and system entities References: <419F5C3C.9000207@linuxfromscratch.org> <419F8A66.30409@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <419F8A66.30409@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on belgarath.linuxfromscratch.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:26:04 -0000 Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Matthew Burgess wrote: > >> >> From what I can gather, being a complete newbie to RELAX NG, system >> entities aren't usable with RELAX NG (and schema languages in general). >> > The two are unrelated, really. Entity expansion takes place at the XML > parsing stage, before validation by schema > is applied. Any XML processor has to read a DTD subset, grok the > entities declared there, and expand instances later. > You can't _declare_ entities in a schema, as you used to be able to with > external DTDs, thats the difference. > > Your example will carry on working just fine, if you just remove > SYSTEM "myDoctype.dtd" > and use a RelaxNG validator or other XML tool. Well, maybe some tools > will protest, but the ones I use daily (jing, libxml2, rnv) do > what I expect. Many thanks for everyones comments on this. The above suggestion was the bit I was missing, and indeed everything is working fine now. RELAX NG and entities would appear to co-exist quite happily here :-) Thanks again, Matt. From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 24 04:19:49 2004 Received: from mail4.speakeasy.net (mail4.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.204]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iANLJnYM090929 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 04:19:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 4516 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2004 21:19:47 -0000 Received: from dsl254-085-072.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.47]) (elharo@[216.254.85.72]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 23 Nov 2004 21:19:47 -0000 Message-ID: <41A3A972.4080809@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:19:46 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] RELAX NG with custom datatype libraries: new article on IBM developerWorks X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:19:50 -0000 Subscribers to this mailing list may be interested in a new article I have written for IBM's developerWorks that espouses "RELAX NG with custom datatype libraries". You'll find it at http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-custyp/ The assistance of this list was invaluable in figuring this stuff out in the first place. Thanks! -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From Nicholas.Hemley@lhb.scot.nhs.uk Wed Nov 24 17:18:49 2004 Received: from mail21.nhs.uk (mail21.nhs.uk [62.6.139.215]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAOAIlHc063152 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:18:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.191.254.3] (helo=relayint2.nhs.uk) by mail21.nhs.uk with esmtp (MTC MTA) id 1CWuET-0006xK-Rv for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:18:41 +0000 Received: from relay.nhs.uk (194.62.42.144) by relayint2.nhs.uk (Syntegra-I2 7.0.008) id 417A1B80008E7F0E for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:18:41 +0000 Received: from orion.pldn.scot.nhs.uk (10.250.0.101) by relay.nhs.uk (Syntegra-4 7.0.008) (authenticated as romulus_lhb_scot_nhs_uk@es2002.nhs.uk) id 41A45E2A0000074F for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:18:41 +0000 Received: from lhb.scot.nhs.uk (unverified) by orion.pldn.scot.nhs.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:21:08 +0000 Received: from PLDNGATE-MTA by lhb.scot.nhs.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:18:40 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:18:09 +0000 From: "Nicholas Hemley" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [relaxng-user] Embedding HTML in a document: 'foreign-nodes' versus namespaces X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:18:50 -0000 Hello, I am trying to allow HTML content within nodes of documents used in a Java/XML application and have therefore used a 'foreign-nodes' declaration in a Relax NG schema which is then converted to XML Schema (since the app server only uses XML Schema) using the Jing utility: Relax NG Schema [snippet] ... define name="element-choice"> --> here is the usage: ... And here is a snippet of the generated XML Schema: XML Schema [snippet - generated] ... ... Firstly, is this schema correct? Could someone explain why it has created a group and attributeGroup with the same name? When I try and view the XML through my application I get the following error reported: Root cause follows. com.sun.msv.verifier.jarv.FactoryImpl$WrapperException: reference to the undefined attribute group: "foreign-attributes" My question is therefore this: is the problem with how Jing has converted the schema or my initial schema? My other question is this: can I use namespaces instead of a 'foreign-nodes' declaration to achieve the same aim? Fire those knowledge arrows at me! Cheerio, Nic. Nic Hemley Lothian NHS Webmaster & Developer internal: 89240 external: 0131 536 9240 int'l: +00 44 131 536 9240 web: www.nhslothian.scot.nhs.uk ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** From claude@montpetit.net Mon Nov 29 23:24:48 2004 Received: from faye.rwhmax.org (faye.rwhmax.org [69.93.241.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iATGOl9o097982 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:24:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from g22-61.citenet.net ([205.151.198.61] helo=[192.9.200.123]) by faye.rwhmax.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1CYoKO-0007Sr-DC for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:24:44 -0600 Message-ID: <41AB4D40.8080206@montpetit.net> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:24:32 -0500 From: "claude@montpetit.net" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-cPanel-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-cPanel-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: claude@montpetit.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - faye.rwhmax.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - relaxng.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - montpetit.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: [relaxng-user] Relaxer eclipse plugin X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:24:48 -0000 Hello, I just installed the eclipse plugin. I can see the Relaxer preferences, and was able to create the relatxer properties file but I am stuck when I attempt to generate a Java class form a Relax NG file. Am I supposed to be able to do that from the eclipse plugin? If so, what would the procedure be? Thanks, -- Claude http://www.montpetit.net From claude@montpetit.net Tue Nov 30 02:30:15 2004 Received: from faye.rwhmax.org (faye.rwhmax.org [69.93.241.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iATJUFUF021891 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:30:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from g22-61.citenet.net ([205.151.198.61] helo=[192.9.200.123]) by faye.rwhmax.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1CYrDw-00005L-AB for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:30:12 -0600 Message-ID: <41AB78C1.6000503@montpetit.net> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:30:09 -0500 From: "claude@montpetit.net" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <41AB4D40.8080206@montpetit.net> In-Reply-To: <41AB4D40.8080206@montpetit.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-cPanel-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-cPanel-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: claude@montpetit.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - faye.rwhmax.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - relaxng.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - montpetit.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Relaxer eclipse plugin X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:30:17 -0000 Ok, I somewhat figured how it works. But since I am new to Relax NG and Relaxer, I need advice on how to setup my environment. - Does anyone have a sample Eclipse project with Relaxer artifacts in there? or - Does anyone have an Ant project that uses Relaxer? I need a sample environment model so I can do things the right way. Ideally, these samples (or even real projects that you would not mind sharing) would have more than one .rng file with external refs (). That would trully be useful ;) Thanks, Claude > Hello, > > I just installed the eclipse plugin. I can see the Relaxer preferences, > and was able to create the relatxer properties file but I am stuck when > I attempt to generate a Java class form a Relax NG file. Am I supposed > to be able to do that from the eclipse plugin? If so, what would the > procedure be? > > Thanks, > > -- > Claude > http://www.montpetit.net > > -- _________________________________ C l a u d e M o n t p e t i t claude@montpetit.net http://www.montpetit.net _________________________________ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Nov 30 07:02:47 2004 Received: from mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU02k0i049993 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:02:47 +0700 (ICT) Received: from aamta04-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041130000240.GNUC29450.mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta04-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:02:40 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [81.103.191.36]) by aamta04-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041130000240.FTXE2076.aamta04-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[192.168.1.100]> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:02:40 +0000 Message-ID: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:56:59 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:02:47 -0000 My schema has this: where macro.phraseSeq is This translate with trang into and which looks fine. Most tests pass it OK. But the Microsoft parser says "The derived type and the base type must have the same content type" because docAuthor does not say it is "mixed='true'". Can anyone explain to me a) is Microsoft correct? b) whether I can fix this in any way, short of writing a transform of the XSD? yours depressed by Microsoft again Sebastian -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 30 14:10:10 2004 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU7A8id090798 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:10:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (acer [127.0.0.1]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4A648DB for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:10:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (gwparis.dyomedea.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04175-05 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:10:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.0.0.2 (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0CA48DA for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:10:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:09:55 +0100 Message-Id: <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at dyomedea.com X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:10:11 -0000 Hi Sebastian, On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 23:56 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > My schema has this: > > > > > > > > > where macro.phraseSeq is > > > > > > > > > This translate with trang into > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > ref="ns1:macro.phrasegroup"/> > > > which looks fine. Most tests pass it OK. > But the Microsoft parser says "The derived type and the base type > must have the same content type" because docAuthor does not say > it is "mixed='true'". > > Can anyone explain to me > > a) is Microsoft correct? With W3C XML Schema, it's always difficult to be sure but here is what I have written on the subject a while ago : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlschema-dev/2001Oct/0113.html Also, http://w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#Complex_Type_Definitions says: [Definition:] Let the effective mixed be the appropriate case among the following: 1.1 If the mixed [attribute] is present on , then its ·actual value·; 1.2 If the mixed [attribute] is present on , then its ·actual value·; 1.3 otherwise false. and later on : 1.4.3.2.2.1 Both {content type}s must be mixed or both must be element-only. To make it short, I *think* that on this one, Microsoft is right and trang is wrong. > b) whether I can fix this in any way, short of writing a transform of > the XSD? What about trying to isolate a simpler repro case and a) send a mail to James Clark b) see if by rewriting the RNG schema you can work around this behavior ??? > yours depressed by Microsoft again That's depressing for sure but in that case, I find W3C XML Schema the depressing factor, not Microsoft! Hope this helps. Eric > Sebastian > -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From atsushi@ximian.com Tue Nov 30 16:15:30 2004 Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU9FUgb001676 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:15:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 2247 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2004 09:15:23 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?219.105.25.190?) (atsushi@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Nov 2004 09:15:23 -0000 Message-ID: <41AC3A1B.4060207@ximian.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:15:07 +0900 From: Atsushi Eno User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6+ (Windows/20041126) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" References: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> In-Reply-To: <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:15:31 -0000 Hello, Eric, I don't think you (and MS implementation) are right. Read the description of {content type} in 3.4.2 "Complex Type Definition with complex content Schema Component" (well, I know you must have read there so many times :-) In 3.2.1, it specifies that in case of extension and it's effective content is empty, then its {content type} is "the {content type} of the type definition -resolved- to by the -actual value- of the base [attribute]". Note that this is the definition, and once {content type} is computed, "effective content" is nothing to do with the constraints on complex type component. So in this case, the derived type's {content type} must not be different from that of base type by definition. I'll report this bug to MS later, unless it turns out that I am wrong. Atsushi Eno Eric van der Vlist wrote: > Hi Sebastian, > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 23:56 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >>My schema has this: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>where macro.phraseSeq is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>This translate with trang into >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>and >> >> >> >ref="ns1:macro.phrasegroup"/> >> >> >>which looks fine. Most tests pass it OK. >>But the Microsoft parser says "The derived type and the base type >>must have the same content type" because docAuthor does not say >>it is "mixed='true'". >> >>Can anyone explain to me >> >> a) is Microsoft correct? > > > With W3C XML Schema, it's always difficult to be sure but here is what I > have written on the subject a while ago : > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlschema-dev/2001Oct/0113.html > > > Also, http://w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#Complex_Type_Definitions says: > > > [Definition:] Let the effective mixed be the appropriate case among > the following: > 1.1 If the mixed [attribute] is present on , then its > ·actual value·; > 1.2 If the mixed [attribute] is present on , then its > ·actual value·; > 1.3 otherwise false. > > > and later on : > > > 1.4.3.2.2.1 Both {content type}s must be mixed or both must be > element-only. > > > To make it short, I *think* that on this one, Microsoft is right and > trang is wrong. > > >> b) whether I can fix this in any way, short of writing a transform of >> the XSD? > > > What about trying to isolate a simpler repro case and > > a) send a mail to James Clark > b) see if by rewriting the RNG schema you can work around this behavior > > ??? > > >>yours depressed by Microsoft again > > > That's depressing for sure but in that case, I find W3C XML Schema the > depressing factor, not Microsoft! > > Hope this helps. > > Eric > > >>Sebastian >> From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Nov 30 16:25:05 2004 Received: from tx3.mail.ox.ac.uk (tx3.mail.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.167]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU9P4lw002733 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:25:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan3.mail.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.166] helo=localhost) by tx3.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CZ4Fq-00067j-AI for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:25:02 +0000 Received: from rx3.mail.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.165]) by localhost (scan3.mail.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 23007-09 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:25:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp0.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.246]) by rx3.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CZ4Fo-00067a-CJ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:25:00 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.101.17]) by smtp0.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1CZ4Fo-0001XR-3y; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:25:00 +0000 Message-ID: <41AC3BD3.5080900@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:22:27 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" References: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> In-Reply-To: <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:25:07 -0000 Eric van der Vlist wrote: > >1.4.3.2.2.1 Both {content type}s must be mixed or both must be >element-only. > > >To make it short, I *think* that on this one, Microsoft is right and >trang is wrong. > > Good lord. can such things be? anyway, thanks for the explanation. I guess its fairly immaterial whether Microsoft are right or wrong, as I don't suppose they produce fixes to such things very quickly, so I have to work around it. >What about trying to isolate a simpler repro case and > >a) send a mail to James Clark >b) see if by rewriting the RNG schema you can work around this behavior > > the latter is what I was looking at. I have solved some of my cases in this way, but have a few nasties left over. I suspect James would say that he is not going to make Trang work around bugs in other people's software :-} Sebastian From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 30 16:37:46 2004 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU9beYH003899 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:37:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (acer [127.0.0.1]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2EC14C13 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:37:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (gwparis.dyomedea.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10372-08 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:37:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.0.0.2 (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6B614A8E for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:37:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <41AC3A1B.4060207@ximian.com> References: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> <41AC3A1B.4060207@ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:37:23 +0100 Message-Id: <1101807444.15875.79.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at dyomedea.com X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:37:46 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 18:15 +0900, Atsushi Eno wrote: > Hello, > > Eric, I don't think you (and MS implementation) are right. Read > the description of {content type} in 3.4.2 "Complex Type > Definition with complex content Schema Component" (well, I know > you must have read there so many times :-) Too many times yes! > In 3.2.1, it specifies that in case of extension and it's > effective content is empty, then its {content type} is "the > {content type} of the type definition -resolved- to by the > -actual value- of the base [attribute]". Hmmm.... I had read Sebastian's snippet too fast and had missed the fact that in that case the extension is adding only attributes and that we are in the case where the "effective content is empty". You're right, in that specific case it seems that the mixed attribute may be omitted on the extension and the schema generated by trang seems to be valid. > Note that this is the definition, and once {content type} is > computed, "effective content" is nothing to do with the > constraints on complex type component. > > So in this case, the derived type's {content type} must not be > different from that of base type by definition. > > I'll report this bug to MS later, unless it turns out that > I am wrong. I don't think so. It seems that the mixed attribute would need to be specified if the extension was adding elements but that it is optional when the extension is adding only attributes. Eric > Atsushi Eno -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Nov 30 16:45:40 2004 Received: from tx4.mail.ox.ac.uk (tx4.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.173]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU9jdO8004670 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:45:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan4.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.177] helo=localhost) by tx4.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CZ4Zn-0002u0-DX for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:45:39 +0000 Received: from rx4.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.172]) by localhost (scan4.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.177]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 10790-05 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.235]) by rx4.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CZ4Zl-0002tq-Fk; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:45:37 +0000 Received: from tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.103.182]) by smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1CZ4Zl-0000js-3n; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:45:37 +0000 Message-ID: <41AC40A8.4060805@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:43:04 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" References: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> <41AC3A1B.4060207@ximian.com> <1101807444.15875.79.camel@delleric> In-Reply-To: <1101807444.15875.79.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:45:41 -0000 Eric van der Vlist wrote: >I don't think so. It seems that the mixed attribute would need to be >specified if the extension was adding elements but that it is optional >when the extension is adding only attributes. > > this helps me. so adding the mixed attribute is not wrong, just unnecessary. I can write a small transform which adds in the attribute for the 3 special cases which provoke this situation. sebastian From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 30 16:54:40 2004 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iAU9sYhh005471 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:54:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (acer [127.0.0.1]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C41014C13 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:54:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (gwparis.dyomedea.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10878-06 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:54:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.0.0.2 (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8DC14A8E for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:54:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] problems with trang making xsd, mixed="true" From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <41AC3BD3.5080900@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> References: <41ABB74B.9020703@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <1101798595.15875.66.camel@delleric> <41AC3BD3.5080900@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:54:19 +0100 Message-Id: <1101808459.15875.88.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at dyomedea.com X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:54:41 -0000 On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 09:22 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Eric van der Vlist wrote: > > > > >1.4.3.2.2.1 Both {content type}s must be mixed or both must be > >element-only. > > > > > >To make it short, I *think* that on this one, Microsoft is right and > >trang is wrong. > > > > > Good lord. can such things be? That's the result of an overly complex spec that nobody can read :-( ... This whole thread is just yet another demonstration that this should be avoided! > anyway, thanks for the explanation. And sorry I was wrong... > I guess its fairly immaterial whether Microsoft are right or wrong, > as I don't suppose they produce fixes to such things very quickly, > so I have to work around it. > > >What about trying to isolate a simpler repro case and > > > >a) send a mail to James Clark > >b) see if by rewriting the RNG schema you can work around this behavior > > > > > the latter is what I was looking at. I have solved some of my cases > in this way, but have a few nasties left over. And this one seems especially nasty. Don't know if this can help, but the simplest repro I can think of is something like: start = element foo {foo} foo = foo.elements, foo.attributes foo.elements = mixed{element bar {empty}} foo.attributes = attribute bat {text} And the generated schema shows the behaviour you've noticed: > I suspect James would say that he is not going to make Trang > work around bugs in other people's software :-} Trang is already a work around bugs in other people's language! Eric > > Sebastian > > -- Have you ever thought about unit testing XSLT templates? http://xsltunit.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From jonni.gani@gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:30:32 2004 Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iB1AUWPn054264 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:30:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z35so209049rne for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:30:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ml/zEDRAREmCgPJnpR38OFfPUeMOAbAu+lXq8kswvOqd/BuF+8IDhtMGQyxgbv+5VQ1PJXHHtc85mna8DRUDDVElBBZFpyu9ORnKOhc6/1VumnIhP9pSN/XhHKDhm3ve2cw6CFFW8itQrl8ZdiWsUB1NWloyn2+BZqrh+iNmmYU= Received: by 10.38.75.53 with SMTP id x53mr158695rna; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.70.40 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 02:30:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <390b6fb004120102306a588eda@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:30:31 +1100 From: Jonni Gani To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] "href" attribute and relative path X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jonni Gani List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:30:32 -0000 Can the "href" attribute refer to a file using a relative path? I tried the following but a forward slash was always prepended to the file name: to produce "/foo.rng". From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Dec 9 06:24:27 2004 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iB8NOQUh049696 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:24:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8NOQVu002876 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:24:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I8F008H3FOPHY@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:24:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I8F005MZFOPUK@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:24:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:24:28 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "href" attribute and relative path In-reply-to: <390b6fb004120102306a588eda@mail.gmail.com> To: Jonni Gani Message-id: <41B78D2C.9010309@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) References: <390b6fb004120102306a588eda@mail.gmail.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 23:24:28 -0000 Jonni Gani wrote: > Can the "href" attribute refer to a file using a relative path? I > tried the following but a forward slash was always prepended to the > file name: > > > > to produce "/foo.rng". Not sure which implementation you are using, but this sounds like a bug. -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From frans.englich@telia.com Mon Dec 13 18:55:03 2004 Received: from mailfe01.swip.net (mailfe01.swip.net [212.247.154.1]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDBt1Wf096498 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:55:03 +0700 (ICT) X-T2-Posting-ID: 2yF4ydxc0UI9xI7FHZPfog== Received: from 83.72.134.122.ip.tele2adsl.dk ([83.72.134.122] verified) by mailfe01.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.7) with ESMTP id 238808077 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:54:55 +0100 From: Frans Englich To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:02:21 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> Subject: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:55:04 -0000 Hello, I am trying to figure out what MIME type to use for RELAX NG. From what I can tell, this has been discussed twice before, but I can't find a specific answer: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/relax-ng/200204/msg00056.html http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user/2004-January/000219.html What is the MIME type for RELAX NG? Should I use a bogus text/x-rng or anything else arbitrary, until a formal, registered answer is here? (in case I haven't misunderstood) Cheers, Frans From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Mon Dec 13 19:59:10 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDCx99B001472 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:59:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j107075.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.107.75]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CBEEDB1; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:59:08 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:58:27 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: Frans Englich Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> X-Mailer-Plugin: BkASPil for Becky!2 Ver.2.020 Message-Id: <20041213215528.F22B.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.12 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:59:10 -0000 On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:02:21 +0000 Frans Englich wrote: > > What is the MIME type for RELAX NG? Should I use a bogus text/x-rng or > anything else arbitrary, until a formal, registered answer is here? (in case > I haven't misunderstood) Schemas in the XML syntax can be labelled as application/xml. I have an action item to introduce a media type for schemas in the compact syntax, but I have not done so yet. Sorry. Will do so in January. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From robin.berjon@expway.fr Mon Dec 13 20:13:24 2004 Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDDDNYW002625 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:13:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (mail.domain.com [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 34A54A0001B4; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:13:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.219] (ASt-Lambert-109-2-1-204.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr [217.128.9.204]) by mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A300EA00019F; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:13:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41BD9570.804@expway.fr> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:13:20 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Macintosh/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213215528.F22B.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> In-Reply-To: <20041213215528.F22B.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:13:24 -0000 MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) wrote: > Schemas in the XML syntax can be labelled as application/xml. I have an > action item to introduce a media type for schemas in the compact syntax, but > I have not done so yet. Sorry. Will do so in January. Wouldn't it be nicer to have a media type for the XML syntax too, say application/relaxng+xml? It could help for instance select between various schema languages without having to look inside. -- Robin Berjon From jcowan@reutershealth.com Mon Dec 13 21:46:58 2004 Received: from ratanakiri.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.37]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDEkwsH010465 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:46:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by ratanakiri.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id iBDEkpbS020111; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:46:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:46:54 -0500 From: John Cowan To: Frans Englich Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Message-ID: <20041213144654.GM17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:46:58 -0000 Frans Englich scripsit: > What is the MIME type for RELAX NG? Should I use a bogus text/x-rng or > anything else arbitrary, until a formal, registered answer is here? (in case > I haven't misunderstood) I would question why we need a MIME type for the RNG compact syntax. We do not have one for other "compact" syntaxes such as C or Pascal or Fortran. We have one for CSS only because the HTML link element (and its XML analogue, the xml-stylesheet PI) overload the MIME-type in the case of stylesheet languages to designate the language. Strictly, a MIME-type is only needed to specify how to convert a stream of octets such as an email body (the original use case) or an HTTP entity-body to application objects such as text or sound or graphics or video. The compact syntax is plain text, and I believe text/plain with a specification of the encoding ("charset" in MIME-speak) is both necessary and sufficient. As for the XML syntax, application/xml does it all. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Is it not written, "That which is written, is written"? From robin.berjon@expway.fr Mon Dec 13 22:00:04 2004 Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDF03j6011625 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:00:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id B33C81FFFF69; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:59:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.219] (ASt-Lambert-109-2-3-233.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.233]) by mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 110DC1FFFF6B; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:59:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:59:59 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Macintosh/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213144654.GM17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20041213144654.GM17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:00:04 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > I would question why we need a MIME type for the RNG compact syntax. Allow me to turn this around: I would question why we not need a MIME type for both RNG syntaxes. You may have no use for it, and I may have limited (but existing) use for it, but you never know what users might do with it. Media type registrations are cheap, better to have one not used than to need one not done. -- Robin Berjon From jcowan@reutershealth.com Mon Dec 13 22:15:18 2004 Received: from ratanakiri.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.37]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDFFHfa013195 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:15:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by ratanakiri.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id iBDFF9iO020293; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:15:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:15:14 -0500 From: John Cowan To: Robin Berjon Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Message-ID: <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213144654.GM17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:15:18 -0000 Robin Berjon scripsit: > Allow me to turn this around: I would question why we not need a MIME > type for both RNG syntaxes. You may have no use for it, and I may have > limited (but existing) use for it, but you never know what users might > do with it. Media type registrations are cheap, better to have one not > used than to need one not done. If there's a media-type and an associated .rnc extension, then Apache config files will tend to associate .rnc with application/relax-ng-compact or whatever it is. Browsers will then pick up that media type, assume they can't read the file, and punt to saving it. This is annoying. We had to stop using READ.ME instead of README because servers were assuming it was troff -me text and browsers were not displaying it. -- What is the sound of Perl? Is it not the John Cowan sound of a [Ww]all that people have stopped jcowan@reutershealth.com banging their head against? --Larry http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From frans.englich@telia.com Tue Dec 14 00:21:20 2004 Received: from mailfe09.swip.net (mailfe09.swip.net [212.247.155.1]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDHLKTg027486 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:21:20 +0700 (ICT) X-T2-Posting-ID: 2yF4ydxc0UI9xI7FHZPfog== Received: from 83.72.134.122.ip.tele2adsl.dk ([83.72.134.122] verified) by mailfe09.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.7) with ESMTP id 38041408 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:20:46 +0100 From: Frans Englich To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:28:41 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:21:21 -0000 On Monday 13 December 2004 15:15, John Cowan wrote: > Robin Berjon scripsit: > > Allow me to turn this around: I would question why we not need a MIME > > type for both RNG syntaxes. You may have no use for it, and I may have > > limited (but existing) use for it, but you never know what users might > > do with it. Media type registrations are cheap, better to have one not > > used than to need one not done. > > If there's a media-type and an associated .rnc extension, then Apache > config files will tend to associate .rnc with application/relax-ng-compact > or whatever it is. Browsers will then pick up that media type, assume > they can't read the file, and punt to saving it. This is annoying. I think the "Right" answer to that is that the user agent should be properly configured to handle that mimetype in a suitable/preferrable way. In practice, it's another matter, though. I can tell why I want a MIME type: desktop environments uses the MIME type for identifying files, and displaying proper meta data about them, such as comments, "Microsoft Word Document", and icons(I'm scouting for adding the mime type to KDE, btw). In a (currently private) project of mine, a regression framework, has tests which declares what type of files they should apply to by using the MIME type as identifier. In other words, I don't emphasize the encoding issue which is the central point in the MIME system's original intent(mail etc), but rather its way of communicating file type. Cheers, Frans From ans208@mail.usask.ca Tue Dec 14 00:28:44 2004 Received: from mail.usask.ca (mail.usask.ca [128.233.192.250]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDHShbA028561 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:28:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail.usask.ca by mail.usask.ca (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) id <0I8O000018GWEI@mail.usask.ca> (original mail from ans208@mail.usask.ca) for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:28:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from [128.233.151.85] (ascl-a3-12.usask.ca [128.233.151.85]) by mail.usask.ca (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I8O00EP08JU0A@mail.usask.ca> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:28:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:28:41 -0600 From: Andreas Sewe Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <41BDD149.30807@mail.usask.ca> Organization: Student, University of Saskatchewan MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: de-de, de-at, de-ch, de, en-gb, en-ca, en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:28:44 -0000 Robin Berjon wrote: > Wouldn't it be nicer to have a media type for the XML syntax > too, say application/relaxng+xml? It could help for instance > select between various schema languages without having to > look inside. Given that the W3C aims at registering media types for most of their specified formats in the Standards tree and that Relax NG will been an ISO-approved standard I would like to see an IETF Standard tree application/rng+xml type in there, too. Personally I have a slight preference for rng+xml over the longer relaxng+xml, since the general patterns seems to be to simply stick the suffix +xml to the recommended file extension. For the compact syntax I would then prefer a type like rng-compact, using the -compact suffix in analogy to the +xml one. But those are just my $0.02... Regards, Andreas Sewe From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Dec 14 01:26:21 2004 Received: from ratanakiri.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.37]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDIQL4X035696 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 01:26:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by ratanakiri.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id iBDIQFMk021396; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:26:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:26:24 -0500 From: John Cowan To: Frans Englich Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Message-ID: <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:26:22 -0000 Frans Englich scripsit: > I think the "Right" answer to that is that the user agent should be properly > configured to handle that mimetype in a suitable/preferrable way. In > practice, it's another matter, though. AFAIK there is no way to tell browsers "Display this type as text/plain". -- "[T]he Unicode Standard does not encode John Cowan idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private http://www.ccil.org/~cowan use characters, nor does it encode logos http://www.reutershealth.com or graphics." jcowan@reutershealth.com From robin.berjon@expway.fr Tue Dec 14 01:31:09 2004 Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDIV9HB036318 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 01:31:09 +0700 (ICT) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (blackhole.apb.de [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id AC17BA000148; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:31:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.219] (ASt-Lambert-109-2-3-233.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.233]) by mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BF953A0001B0; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:31:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41BDDFEA.4040707@expway.fr> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:31:06 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Macintosh/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:10 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > Frans Englich scripsit: >>I think the "Right" answer to that is that the user agent should be properly >>configured to handle that mimetype in a suitable/preferrable way. In >>practice, it's another matter, though. > > AFAIK there is no way to tell browsers "Display this type as text/plain". Alas no, but in such situations I often ask it to open that media type in my text editor, where the font is right, scrolls as expected, I might get syntax highlighting, etc. If all this is about how it annoys you, asking the kind Mozilla folks to add a "Display this type as text/plain" option may be a technically sounder option than not defining a media type :-) -- Robin Berjon From frans.englich@telia.com Tue Dec 14 01:43:00 2004 Received: from mailfe04.swip.net (mailfe04.swip.net [212.247.154.97]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBDIgxoj037697 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 01:43:00 +0700 (ICT) X-T2-Posting-ID: 2yF4ydxc0UI9xI7FHZPfog== Received: from 83.72.134.122.ip.tele2adsl.dk ([83.72.134.122] verified) by mailfe04.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.7) with ESMTP id 243246647; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:42:49 +0100 From: Frans Englich To: John Cowan Subject: OT Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:50:16 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412131850.16205.frans.englich@telia.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:43:00 -0000 On Monday 13 December 2004 18:26, John Cowan wrote: > Frans Englich scripsit: > > I think the "Right" answer to that is that the user agent should be > > properly configured to handle that mimetype in a suitable/preferrable > > way. In practice, it's another matter, though. > > AFAIK there is no way to tell browsers "Display this type as text/plain". Not what I know either, but should they at all tell that? MIME types are not for communicating how a file should be treated in a certain GUI; I think it would be to misuse MIME and to rely on certain de-facto behaviors on certain browsers -- the web server should only serve files and tell what types they are, /how/ they are treated is a user agent thing. AFAICT. In KDE it's solved by MIME inheritance, that a MIME type can also be another type, in this case text/xml(if no program is registered for RNG, use an editor which can handle text/xml). IIRC. Cheers, Frans From bob@objfac.com Tue Dec 14 07:36:40 2004 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (postfix@pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBE0adEs077669 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:36:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from objfac.com (adsl-68-127-152-250.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.127.152.250]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE14B1496AA; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:36:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41BE3567.8000903@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:35:51 -0800 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Berjon Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> <41BDDFEA.4040707@expway.fr> In-Reply-To: <41BDDFEA.4040707@expway.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org, John Cowan X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:36:40 -0000 Robin Berjon wrote: > If all this is about how it annoys you, asking the kind Mozilla folks to > add a "Display this type as text/plain" option may be a technically > sounder option than not defining a media type :-) Technically sound's got nothing to do with browsers. ;-} Nor with MIME types, for that matter. If text/plain is working well now, as I believe it is, why diddle around with it? Because some browser in the future might offer compact syntax coloring? I don't believe that for a second. Bob Foster From robin.berjon@expway.fr Tue Dec 14 16:48:00 2004 Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBE9lx8i021411 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:48:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0603.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 38AFD1C00247; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:47:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.219] (ASt-Lambert-109-2-3-251.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.53.251]) by mwinf0603.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C9E371C001E2; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:47:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41BEB6CC.7050303@expway.fr> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:47:56 +0100 From: Robin Berjon User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Macintosh/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Foster Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <41BDAE6F.3070001@expway.fr> <20041213151514.GS17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200412131728.41425.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213182624.GC21713@skunk.reutershealth.com> <41BDDFEA.4040707@expway.fr> <41BE3567.8000903@objfac.com> In-Reply-To: <41BE3567.8000903@objfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:48:00 -0000 Bob Foster wrote: > Technically sound's got nothing to do with browsers. ;-} Nor with MIME > types, for that matter. If text/plain is working well now, as I believe > it is, why diddle around with it? Because some browser in the future > might offer compact syntax coloring? I don't believe that for a second. Well believe it 'cos it's there. There's a large variety of formats that I've told my browser to open straight in my text editor, nice with all the bells and whistles you can get there.... -- Robin Berjon From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Dec 15 06:45:17 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBENjFaC007625 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:45:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (h221092.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.114.221.92]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2D57161 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:45:14 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:44:31 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <20041213144654.GM17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200412131202.21594.frans.englich@telia.com> <20041213144654.GM17758@skunk.reutershealth.com> X-Mailer-Plugin: BkASPil for Becky!2 Ver.2.020 Message-Id: <20041215083900.9999.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.12 [ja] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:45:17 -0000 Jonh, > I would question why we need a MIME type for the RNG compact syntax. > We do not have one for other "compact" syntaxes such as C or Pascal or > Fortran. We have one for CSS only because the HTML link element (and > its XML analogue, the xml-stylesheet PI) overload the MIME-type in the > case of stylesheet languages to designate the language. The biggest reason is DSDL Part 4 (Namespace-based Validaiton Dispatching Language), a predecessor of which is NRL by James Clark. A NVDL or NRL schema may reference to external schemas in any schema language. When an external schema is written in the XML syntax, we can rely on the namespace of the root element. When it is written in any other syntax, we need a mechanism to tell which schema language is in use. NVDL and NRL use media types for this purpose. Cheers, Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Dec 15 07:11:05 2004 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBF0B4n7010095 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:11:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (h221092.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.114.221.92]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D191066BF2 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:11:02 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:10:20 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG In-Reply-To: <41BDD149.30807@mail.usask.ca> References: <41BDD149.30807@mail.usask.ca> X-Mailer-Plugin: BkASPil for Becky!2 Ver.2.020 Message-Id: <20041215084836.999C.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.12 [ja] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:11:05 -0000 On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:28:41 -0600 Andreas Sewe wrote: > Given that the W3C aims at registering media types for most of > their specified formats in the Standards tree > and that Relax > NG will been an ISO-approved standard I would like to see an > IETF Standard tree application/rng+xml type in there, too. I understand that some people want to introduce a media type for each XML vocabulary. Nevertheless, I have also heard a lot of questions about such specialized media types. First, specialized media types do not help multi-namespace XML documents. Second, if fine-grained dispatching or content negotiation rely on media types only, we will eventually need even finer media types such as application/rng-ASCIINamesOnly+xml. In the case of XSLT, we still do not have any specialized media types. In the case of iCalendar, a specilized media type was created, since people want to retrieve MIME headers and then retrieve XML only when necessary. I am still not convineced if application/relaxng+xml is needed. But if many people have good reasons to introduce it, I will not argue against it. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Wed Dec 15 15:12:38 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBF8CcQ9050501 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:12:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBF8Cbcn007322 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:12:37 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 07290-01-4 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:12:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBF8BQ6K007271 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:11:26 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:11:21 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:11:21 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA99D98754@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG thread-index: AcTiOvbCya9YqDftTXKsHZO61NYOCQAQoYMg From: "Pawson, David" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2004 08:11:21.0348 (UTC) FILETIME=[A95D7440:01C4E27D] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:12:39 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) I am still not convineced if application/relaxng+xml is needed. But if many people have good reasons to introduce it, I will not argue against it. rng form => xml. rnc form => text. I see no reason to go deeper. regards DaveP ** snip here ** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Dec 15 15:29:31 2004 Received: from goro.asahi-net.or.jp (goro.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.40]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBF8TU7x051694 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:29:31 +0700 (ICT) Received: from j.asahi-net.or.jp (karl.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.33.31]) by goro.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with SMTP id iBF8TSm20327 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:29:28 +0900 (JST) Received: by j.asahi-net.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 15 Dec 2004 17:29:28 +0900 From: EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] MIME type for RELAX NG Mime-Version: 1.0 Lines: 14 Message-Id: <41BFF5E8.9822.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:29:31 -0000 X-Original-Date: 15 Dec 2004 17:29:28 +0900 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:29:31 -0000 >rng form => xml. >rnc form => text. > >I see no reason to go deeper. Sorry. I do not understand. XML does not require content sniffing, since we can safely rely on namespace URIs. But text requires content sniffing, which is not very reliable. Cheers, Makoto From dsewell@virginia.edu Fri Dec 17 02:29:11 2004 Received: from unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (unix.mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBGJTBe5044074 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:29:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU (smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.22.52]) by unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180D34E1A3 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lister.ei.virginia.edu (lister.ei.Virginia.EDU [128.143.31.45]) by smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2632106F for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:29:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:29:07 -0500 (EST) From: David Sewell X-X-Sender: drs2n@lister.ei.virginia.edu To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Is a deterministic schema possible for my index model? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:29:12 -0000 (First post from me) I'm developing a RelaxNG schema to mark up back-of-the-book indexes. Leaving out refinements like "see also" references and nested subentries, an index consists of multiple entries. Each entry has a heading, and one or more page references. I want to use distinct XML elements for front-matter (roman) pages and body (arabic) pages. The relevant part of the schema (compact syntax) is this definition: pages = (pgrom+, pg*) | (pgrom*, pg+) I.e., there has to be at least one front-matter page or one body page. Trang turns this into the following DTD fragment: while the XML schema equivalent is a group containing a choice between two elements. In either case if I attempt to validate a document instance I get a complaint about a non-deterministic content model. Is this just one of those places where Relax NG does something that you can't do with a DTD or W3C schema? If I want a translatable index schema, will I have to write pages = pgrom*, pg* and therefore permit empty content for "pages"? David S. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell@virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Fri Dec 17 15:22:24 2004 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBH8MN5x016564 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:22:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBH8MMEt024164; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:22:22 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24121-02; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:22:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBH8Kegf024075; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:20:41 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:20:35 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Is a deterministic schema possible for my indexmodel? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:20:34 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA99D987A1@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Is a deterministic schema possible for my indexmodel? thread-index: AcTjptpKnccUKRYySAmSQfnLIMwQGQAalrfg From: "Pawson, David" To: "David Sewell" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 08:20:35.0523 (UTC) FILETIME=[48815930:01C4E411] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:22:24 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of David Sewell I'm developing a RelaxNG schema to mark up back-of-the-book indexes. http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html-ng/index.html Norm has one that you may find useful. regards DaveP ** snip here ** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From fredrik.lindgren@chello.se Fri Dec 17 16:08:27 2004 Received: from amsfep17-int.chello.nl (amsfep17-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.16]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBH98Q0b020106 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:08:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from smtp.chello.se ([193.150.228.13]) by amsfep17-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.01.03.04 201-2131-111-106-20040729) with ESMTP id <20041217090820.WMAV25085.amsfep17-int.chello.nl@smtp.chello.se>; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:08:20 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:08:17 +0100 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Is a deterministic schema possible for my index model? References: From: "Fredrik Lindgren" Organization: Fredrik Lindgren Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3869) Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: fredrik.lindgren@chello.se List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:08:27 -0000 I have not verified it, but what about specifying the pattern as: pages = (pgrom+, pg*) | pg+ This pattern should be equivalent to the initial pattern since any sequence that starts with a pgrom will be handled by the first choice, while the second choice takes care of the rest. The non-deterministic thing is due to the possibility of a pgrom element matching either choice in the generated fragment. Fredrik Lindgren On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:29:07 -0500 (EST), David Sewell wrote: > (First post from me) > > I'm developing a RelaxNG schema to mark up back-of-the-book indexes. > Leaving out refinements like "see also" references and nested > subentries, an index consists of multiple entries. Each entry has a > heading, and one or more page references. I want to use distinct XML > elements for front-matter (roman) pages and body (arabic) pages. > The relevant part of the schema (compact syntax) is this definition: > > pages = (pgrom+, pg*) | (pgrom*, pg+) > > I.e., there has to be at least one front-matter page or one body page. > > Trang turns this into the following DTD fragment: > > > > while the XML schema equivalent is a group containing a choice between > two elements. In either case if I attempt to validate a > document instance I get a complaint about a non-deterministic content > model. > > Is this just one of those places where Relax NG does something that you > can't do with a DTD or W3C schema? If I want a translatable index > schema, will I have to write > > pages = pgrom*, pg* > > and therefore permit empty content for "pages"? > > David S. > From dsewell@virginia.edu Fri Dec 17 21:48:57 2004 Received: from unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (unix.mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBHEmvRh048126 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:48:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU (smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.22.52]) by unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3484E0C0 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from lister.ei.virginia.edu (lister.ei.Virginia.EDU [128.143.31.45]) by smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5AC8210C1 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:48:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:48:55 -0500 (EST) From: David Sewell X-X-Sender: drs2n@lister.ei.virginia.edu To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Is a deterministic schema possible for my index model? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:48:57 -0000 On Fri, 17 Dec 2004, Fredrik Lindgren wrote: > I have not verified it, but what about specifying the pattern as: > pages = (pgrom+, pg*) | pg+ > This pattern should be equivalent to the initial pattern since any sequence > that starts with a pgrom will be handled by the first choice, while the second > choice takes care of the rest. > The non-deterministic thing is due to the possibility of a pgrom element > matching either choice in the generated fragment. Thanks, that's perfect. As they say, "why didn't I think of that?" The DTD and XSD versions work as expected. Thanks also to David Pawson for the pointer to the DocBook index model--it's more complex than needed for my purposes, though. DS > Fredrik Lindgren > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:29:07 -0500 (EST), David Sewell > wrote: > > > (First post from me) > > > > I'm developing a RelaxNG schema to mark up back-of-the-book indexes. > > Leaving out refinements like "see also" references and nested > > subentries, an index consists of multiple entries. Each entry has a > > heading, and one or more page references. I want to use distinct XML > > elements for front-matter (roman) pages and body (arabic) pages. > > The relevant part of the schema (compact syntax) is this definition: > > > > pages = (pgrom+, pg*) | (pgrom*, pg+) > > > > I.e., there has to be at least one front-matter page or one body page. > > > > Trang turns this into the following DTD fragment: > > > > > > > > while the XML schema equivalent is a group containing a choice between > > two elements. In either case if I attempt to validate a > > document instance I get a complaint about a non-deterministic content > > model. > > > > Is this just one of those places where Relax NG does something that you > > can't do with a DTD or W3C schema? If I want a translatable index > > schema, will I have to write > > > > pages = pgrom*, pg* > > > > and therefore permit empty content for "pages"? > > > > David S. > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell@virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From tbrowder@cox.net Sat Dec 25 03:59:20 2004 Received: from lakermmtao04.cox.net (lakermmtao04.cox.net [68.230.240.35]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id iBOKxJjj018869 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:59:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from nonerjsnum1tkq ([68.14.187.181]) by lakermmtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041224205902.VIQH22354.lakermmtao04.cox.net@nonerjsnum1tkq> for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:59:02 -0500 From: "Tom Browder" To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:59:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTp+2ql6+e7CLnoQ3ma1T+pZMIatQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20041224205902.VIQH22354.lakermmtao04.cox.net@nonerjsnum1tkq> Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang and Jing Compilation Warnings X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:59:20 -0000 I just downloaded the trang and jing sources (version 20030619 from www.thaiopensource.com) to compile under Linux i386 (Fedora Core 3) and everything compiled and works fine. However, I did get warnings in both packages about two deprecated classes: org.xml.sax.HandlerBase org.xml.sax.Parser Am I using the latest sources? Thanks and have a Merry Christmas. Tom Browder From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Fri Jan 7 01:04:15 2005 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j06I4Ew4049034 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 01:04:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from frontend3.messagingengine.com (frontend3.internal [10.202.2.152]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6601BC4A108 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:04:13 -0500 (EST) X-Sasl-enc: A+2tHUsSMaTwIBvV5wSIOQ 1105034653 Received: from [134.53.57.141] (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by frontend3.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2FA247F3 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:04:13 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5ED4E144-600D-11D9-9D0F-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:04:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang bug; workaround? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 18:04:16 -0000 I've stumbled on a bug in Trang. This schema (taken a from a larger one), will correctly convert to RNG XML. default namespace = "http://www.loc.gov/mods/v3" namespace mods = "http://www.loc.gov/mods/v3" namespace xlink = "http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" start = Mods Mods = element mods { anyType } ## allow any content in the extension element div { anyType = mixed { (attribute * { text } | extensionSchema)* }, empty extensionSchema = element * { mixed { (extensionSchema | attribute * { text })* } } } However, converting to XSD yields this: # java -jar /opt/jing/bin/trang.jar mods.rng mods.xsd Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.Transformer.getTransformedAttribut eGroup(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.Transformer.visitAttributeGroup(Un known Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.basic.AttributeGroupDefinition.acc ept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.basic.Schema.accept(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.basic.SchemaTransformer.transform( Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.output.xsd.XsdOutputFormat.output(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver.doMain(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver.main(Unknown Source) Hopefully James gets around to fixing this, but in the meantime, does anyone have any suggested workarounds? Bruce From bob_kennelly@yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 05:33:42 2005 Received: from web14523.mail.yahoo.com (web14523.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.224.52]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id j0BMXfV5099959 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:33:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 76741 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2005 22:33:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=SYUK+hyzifI4q+gXpHyoa/UpfI6qBEmeZXStE6vK1maPzhKdrsrOpcEdh7fxPVKIP6cyAEMb6V1/mEXjC50MqUIxKs1ufYtppPfowWuPlXg/2vL/Yh5pNNnG1N9JJ+lVTJcZ7PQL9fHJB21Yt3/YLYArZm3J2lIUETccGbxkUJ0= ; Message-ID: <20050111223341.76739.qmail@web14523.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.246.35.2] by web14523.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:41 PST Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:41 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Kennelly To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-855668075-1105482821=:76732" Subject: [relaxng-user] ? - Is there a way to validate 1 XML record at a time, using the SAX or other parser! X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:33:42 -0000 --0-855668075-1105482821=:76732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello! Before running into space problems, i generated an XML file from a 'pipe delimited' file and and then processed that XML file thru a SAXParser 'validator' and the data was correctly validated, using the RELAXNG Schema patterns as the validation criteria! But as feared, the XML file was huge! (12 billion XML recs. generated from 1 billion 'pipe' recs.) and i am now trying to find a way to process 1 'pipe' record at a time, (ie) read 1 record from the 'pipe delimited' file, convert that rec. to an XML rec. and then send that 1 XML rec. thru the SAXParser 'validator', avoiding the build of a huge temporary XML file! After testing this approach, its looks like the SAXParser 'validator' (sp.parse) is expecting only (1) StringBufferInputStream as input,and after opening, reading and closing just (1) of the returned StringBufferInputStream objects, the validator wants to close up operations! Where i have the "<<<<<" you can see where i'm calling the the object.method that creates the 'pipe>XML' records 'sb.createxml' and will be returning many occurances of the StringBufferInputStream object, where (1) StringBufferInputStream object represents (1) 'pipe>XML' record! So what i'm wondering, is if there is a form of 'inputStream' class that can be loaded and processed at the same time! ie instead of requiring that the 'inputStream' object be loaded in it's entirety, before going to validation? Or if there is another XML 'validator' that can validate 1 XML record at a time, without requiring that the entire XML file be built first? 1. ---------------------------------class: (SX2) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- import ............ public class SX2 { public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception { MyDefaultHandler dh = new MyDefaultHandler(); SX1 sx = new SX1(); SAXParser sp = sx.getParser(args[0]); stbuf1 sb = new stbuf1(); sp.parse(sb.createxml(args[1]),dh); <<<<<< createxml( ) see <<<<<<< below } } class MyDefaultHandler extends DefaultHandler { public int errcnt; "SX2.java" 87 lines, 2563 characters 2. ----------------------------------class: (stbuf1) method: (createxml) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- public stbuf1 () { } public StringBufferInputStream createxml( String inputFile ) <<<<<< createxml( { BufferedReader textReader = null; if ( (inputFile == null) || (inputFile.length() <= 1) ) { throw new NullPointerException("Delimiter Input File does not exist"); } String ele = new String(); try { ele = new String(); textReader = new BufferedReader(new FileReader(inputFile)); String line = null; String SEPARATOR = "\\|"; String sToken = null; String hdr1=(""); hdr1=hdr1.replace('#','"'); String hdr2=(""); String hdr3=(""); String hdr4=("<"+TABLE_NAME+">"); String hdr5=(""); while ( (line = textReader.readLine()) != null ) { String[] sa = line.split(SEPARATOR); String elel = new String(); for (int i = 0; i < NUM_COLS; i++) { if (i>(sa.length-1)) { sToken = new String(); } else { sToken = sa[i]; } elel="<"+_columnNames[i]+">"+sToken+""; if (i==0) { ele=ele.concat(hdr1);ele=ele.concat(hdr2);ele=ele.concat(hdr4);ele=ele.concat(elel); } else if (i==NUM_COLS - 1) { ele=ele.concat(elel);ele=ele.concat(hdr5);ele=ele.concat(hdr3); } else { ele=ele.concat(elel); } } } textReader.close(); } catch (IOException e) { } return (new StringBufferInputStream(ele)); } public static void main( String args[] ) { stbuf1 genxml_obj = new stbuf1 (); String ptxt=new String(args[0]); genxml_obj.createxml(ptxt); }} Thanks very much from Bob Kennelly, love RELAX tools! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --0-855668075-1105482821=:76732 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hello!

Before running into space problems, i generated an XML file from a 'pipe delimited' file and and then processed  that XML file thru a SAXParser 'validator' and the data was correctly validated, using the RELAXNG Schema patterns as the validation criteria!

But as feared, the  XML file was huge! (12 billion XML recs. generated from 1 billion 'pipe' recs.) and  i am now trying to find a way to  process 1 'pipe' record at a time, (ie) read 1 record from the 'pipe delimited' file, convert that rec. to an XML rec. and then send that 1 XML rec. thru the SAXParser 'validator', avoiding the build of a huge temporary XML file!

After testing this approach, its looks like the SAXParser 'validator' (sp.parse) is expecting only (1) StringBufferInputStream as input,and after opening, reading and closing just (1) of the returned  StringBufferInputStream objects, the validator wants to close up operations!

Where i have the "<<<<<" you can see where i'm calling the the object.method that creates the 'pipe>XML' records  'sb.createxml' and will be returning many occurances of the StringBufferInputStream object, where (1) StringBufferInputStream object represents (1) 'pipe>XML' record!

So what i'm wondering, is if there is a form of 'inputStream' class that can be loaded and processed at the same time! ie instead of requiring that the 'inputStream' object be loaded in it's entirety, before going to validation?

Or if there is another XML 'validator' that can validate 1 XML record at a time, without requiring that the entire XML file be built first?

1. ---------------------------------class: (SX2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

import ............

public class SX2
{
 public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception
 {
     MyDefaultHandler dh = new MyDefaultHandler();

     SX1 sx = new SX1();
     SAXParser sp = sx.getParser(args[0]);  

     stbuf1    sb = new stbuf1();                         

     sp.parse(sb.createxml(args[1]),dh);       <<<<<<  createxml( )    see <<<<<<< below
  }
}

class MyDefaultHandler extends DefaultHandler {

        public int errcnt;

"SX2.java" 87 lines, 2563 characters

2. ----------------------------------class: (stbuf1)  method: (createxml) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

public stbuf1 () { }

        public StringBufferInputStream createxml( String inputFile )       <<<<<< createxml(
        {
                BufferedReader textReader = null;
                if ( (inputFile == null) || (inputFile.length() <= 1) )
                {     throw new NullPointerException("Delimiter Input File does not exist");
                }
                String  ele = new String();
                try {
                        ele = new String();
                        textReader       = new BufferedReader(new FileReader(inputFile));
                        String line      = null; String SEPARATOR = "\\|"; String sToken    = null;

                        String hdr1=("<?xml version=#1.0# encoding=#UTF-8#?>"); hdr1=hdr1.replace('#','"');
                        String hdr2=("<hlp_data>");
                        String hdr3=("</hlp_data>");
                        String hdr4=("<"+TABLE_NAME+">");
                        String hdr5=("</"+TABLE_NAME+">");

                        while ( (line = textReader.readLine()) != null )
                        {
                              String[] sa = line.split(SEPARATOR);
                              String elel = new String();

                              for (int i = 0; i < NUM_COLS; i++)
                              {
                                 if (i>(sa.length-1))   { sToken = new String(); } else { sToken = sa[i]; }

                                 elel="<"+_columnNames[i]+">"+sToken+"</"+_columnNames[i]+">";

                                 if  (i==0)             {
                                      ele=ele.concat(hdr1);ele=ele.concat(hdr2);ele=ele.concat(hdr4);ele=ele.concat(elel);
                                 }
                                 else
                                 if  (i==NUM_COLS - 1)   {
                                      ele=ele.concat(elel);ele=ele.concat(hdr5);ele=ele.concat(hdr3);
                                 }
                                 else                   {
                                      ele=ele.concat(elel);
                                 }
                              }
                        }
                        textReader.close();
                }
                catch (IOException e) {
                }
                return (new StringBufferInputStream(ele));
          }
public static void main( String args[] )                {
stbuf1 genxml_obj = new stbuf1 ();
String ptxt=new String(args[0]);
genxml_obj.createxml(ptxt);                            }}

 

Thanks very much from Bob Kennelly, love RELAX tools!

Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --0-855668075-1105482821=:76732-- From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Wed Jan 12 06:15:05 2005 Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net (mail1.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.201]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0BNF4dA004579 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:15:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 6396 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2005 23:15:04 -0000 Received: from dsl254-067-087.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.100]) (elharo@[216.254.67.87]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2005 23:15:04 -0000 Message-ID: <41E45DF7.8060506@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:15:03 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Kennelly Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] ? - Is there a way to validate 1 XML record at a time, using the SAX or other parser! References: <20050111223341.76739.qmail@web14523.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050111223341.76739.qmail@web14523.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:15:05 -0000 Bob Kennelly wrote: > Or if there is another XML 'validator' that can validate 1 XML record at a time, without requiring that the entire XML file be built first? There are several hacks that could do this, but nothing pretty. Would it be possible to hand code the validation logic rather than relying on an explicit schema? If so, you could do this in SAX or XOM. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From ajwelch@piper-group.com Wed Jan 12 22:02:43 2005 Received: from heisenberg.zen.co.uk (heisenberg.zen.co.uk [212.23.3.141]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0CF2hf5087603 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:02:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [82.68.176.37] (helo=sa3bs2k011.Piper.Internal) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cok1C-0005KZ-63 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:02:42 +0000 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:01:11 -0000 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Jing api Thread-Index: AcT4t43BWV1yWIKhS1WElV9Z+OsOaQ== From: "Andrew Welch" To: X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [82.68.176.37] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j0CF2hf5087603 Subject: [relaxng-user] Jing api X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:02:46 -0000 Hi, Can anybody point me to some examples of using the Jing API? Information is thin on the ground and I'm finding it hard going just to get a simple validation done :( I've also looked into using Jarv - it seems pretty useful (and much more simple) - any comments on that are welcome. thanks andrew From bob@objfac.com Thu Jan 13 01:06:40 2005 Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (postfix@sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0CI6efH007674 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:06:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (adsl-68-127-165-224.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.127.165.224]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7FB13DC6E; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:06:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E5672E.7060002@objfac.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:06:38 -0800 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Welch Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Jing api References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:06:41 -0000 Andrew Welch wrote: > Can anybody point me to some examples of using the Jing API? Information > is thin on the ground and I'm finding it hard going just to get a simple > validation done :( Jing has an API? Not that I can tell. Better to stick with Jarv. Bob Foster From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Jan 13 07:44:15 2005 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0D0iE2h049921 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:44:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0D0iEdt024084 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:44:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IA800AP6CPOER@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:44:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IA80076HCPOOP@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:44:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:44:13 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Jing api In-reply-to: <41E5672E.7060002@objfac.com> To: Andrew Welch Message-id: <41E5C45D.3020601@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: ja, en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) References: <41E5672E.7060002@objfac.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:44:15 -0000 Bob Foster wrote: > Andrew Welch wrote: >> Can anybody point me to some examples of using the Jing API? Information >> is thin on the ground and I'm finding it hard going just to get a simple >> validation done :( > > Jing has an API? Not that I can tell. Better to stick with Jarv. It actually has an API. But Andrew, I'm sorry to say this, but if you are a kind of guy who needs documentation to use it, you'd better off using JARV. Or better yet, use JAXP 1.3, if you can. It has a validation API based on JARV. For more info on JARV, see http://iso-relax.sourceforge.net/JARV/ -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From ajwelch@piper-group.com Thu Jan 13 16:15:08 2005 Received: from pythagoras.zen.co.uk (pythagoras.zen.co.uk [212.23.3.140]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0D9F7Gf091225 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:15:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [82.68.176.37] (helo=sa3bs2k011.Piper.Internal) by pythagoras.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cp14M-0001KA-5u; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:15:06 +0000 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Jing api X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:13:34 -0000 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Jing api Thread-Index: AcT40fyhmw2R8sIIQ9WQut77T5HYdwAfZhBg From: "Andrew Welch" To: "Bob Foster" X-Originating-Pythagoras-IP: [82.68.176.37] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j0D9F7Gf091225 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:15:08 -0000 > If you must, you can invoke Jing by reading how JC does it and doing > likewise. The following method is an example. It will either check a > schema and/or use it to validate an instance. Please excuse > the mystery > classes; if their function isn't apparent, ask. Thanks for the example - that's exactly what I needed, but I'm puzzled by 'if you must' and the 'awful kludge' comment: aren't we meant to use the api? How else does everyone validate against RNG in their apps? This is a strange stumbling block on the road of RNG elightenment, up until now everything has been fantastic... From ajwelch@piper-group.com Thu Jan 13 16:47:10 2005 Received: from rutherford.zen.co.uk (rutherford.zen.co.uk [212.23.3.142]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0D9l9VT093914 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:47:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [82.68.176.37] (helo=sa3bs2k011.Piper.Internal) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cp1ZN-0006w3-6q; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:47:09 +0000 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Jing api X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:45:37 -0000 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Jing api Thread-Index: AcT5CUWLTqmOffzfTWKmlcIjJN2kOAASnnPw From: "Andrew Welch" To: "Kohsuke Kawaguchi" X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [82.68.176.37] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j0D9l9VT093914 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:47:10 -0000 > > Andrew Welch wrote: > >> Can anybody point me to some examples of using the Jing API? > >> Information is thin on the ground and I'm finding it hard > going just > >> to get a simple validation done :( > > > > Jing has an API? Not that I can tell. Better to stick with Jarv. > > It actually has an API. But Andrew, I'm sorry to say this, but if you > are a kind of guy who needs documentation to use it, you'd better off > using JARV. > > Or better yet, use JAXP 1.3, if you can. It has a validation > API based > on JARV. I'm using JARV at the moment but ran into the stumbling block of resolving rng:externalRef paths. I've looked to provide some kind of URIResolver, but again it wasn't obvious and I began questioning the direction I was taking. I will have a look what's available in JAXP, thanks andrew From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Thu Jan 13 22:24:24 2005 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0DFONhP021015 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:24:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0DFOMVu019181 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:24:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IA900A1UHGLER@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:24:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.145.133.56] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IA900K5HHGL5E@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:24:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:24:23 -0800 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Jing api In-reply-to: To: Andrew Welch Message-id: <41E692A7.1060707@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: ja, en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) References: Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:24:26 -0000 Andrew Welch wrote: > I'm using JARV at the moment but ran into the stumbling block of > resolving rng:externalRef paths. I've looked to provide some kind of > URIResolver, but again it wasn't obvious and I began questioning the > direction I was taking. I will have a look what's available in JAXP, If you set an EntityResolver, it should be consulted for resolving externalRef. I also just realized that Elliotte Harold told me that the adapter to JAXP->JARV wasn't working, and I needed to fix it, but that is still pending. -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From bob@objfac.com Fri Jan 14 02:03:01 2005 Received: from plunder.dreamhost.com (postfix@plunder.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0DJ313h045518 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:03:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (adsl-68-127-165-224.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.127.165.224]) by plunder.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C877B86263; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:02:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41E6C5E0.8020106@objfac.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:02:56 -0800 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Welch Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Jing api References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:03:02 -0000 Andrew Welch wrote: >>If you must, you can invoke Jing by reading how JC does it and doing >>likewise. The following method is an example. It will either check a >>schema and/or use it to validate an instance. Please excuse >>the mystery >>classes; if their function isn't apparent, ask. [example snipped] > > Thanks for the example - that's exactly what I needed, but I'm puzzled > by 'if you must' and the 'awful kludge' comment: aren't we meant to use > the api? How else does everyone validate against RNG in their apps? As you know, Kohsuke and I and no doubt others have found ways of invoking RNG at the object level, but I'm not sure the ways amount to an API. An API is really more a matter of intent, so you'd have to ask James Clark if any of the ways of calling jing internally are intended to be API. One of the issues, IIRC, is that setting an entityresolver doesn't work 100% in jing because of some classloading tricks it plays. I had to hack the code. If what I was calling was API, I'd have a reasonable expectation such problems would be fixed. Bob > This is a strange stumbling block on the road of RNG elightenment, up > until now everything has been fantastic... From tbrowder@cox.net Mon Jan 17 21:12:56 2005 Received: from lakermmtao05.cox.net (lakermmtao05.cox.net [68.230.240.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0HECtEa077313 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:12:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from nonerjsnum1tkq ([68.14.187.181]) by lakermmtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20050117141248.SBQI16431.lakermmtao05.cox.net@nonerjsnum1tkq> for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:12:48 -0500 From: "Tom Browder" To: Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Trang and Jing Compilation Warnings Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:12:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C4FC6C.4F779100" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20041224205902.VIQH22354.lakermmtao04.cox.net@nonerjsnum1tkq> Thread-Index: AcTp+2ql6+e7CLnoQ3ma1T+pZMIatQSnvRIg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20050117141248.SBQI16431.lakermmtao05.cox.net@nonerjsnum1tkq> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:12:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C4FC6C.4F779100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org > [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Tom Browder > I just downloaded the trang and jing sources (version 20030619 from > www.thaiopensource.com) to compile under Linux i386 (Fedora > Core 3) and everything compiled and works fine. However, I > did get warnings in both packages about two deprecated classes: > > org.xml.sax.HandlerBase > org.xml.sax.Parser After working with trang and jing some more I have found some problems. I have enclosed three gzipped tar archives: 1. jing_compile_test_err.tgz 2. trang_compile_test_err.tgz 3. jing_trang_test_err.tgz I compiled and tested the jing and trang sources on a Fedora Core Linux i386 host using gcj version "Red Hat 3.4.2-6.fc3). For both I got warnings about deprecated functions. Then I got errors running "test_jing" and "test_trang." The config logs, compile logs, and test logs for each are in attached tgz files 1 and 2. I took an XML instance, tgm4.xml, and hand built tgm4.rnc following quidance from Eric van der List's "Relax NG" book from O'Reilly. I used trang to produce an rng file and an xsd file. I ran jing on tgm4.xml using the rnc and rng schemas. Then I used the xsd schema with xmllint. Results: jing -c tgm4.rnc tgm4.xml -> warning about ignored error: attribute "noNamespace..." ignored jing tgm4.rng tgm4.xml -> unhandled exception from main xmllint --schema tgm4.xsd --noout tgm4.xml -> validates I deleted the "noNamespace..." line from tgm4.xml and called the file tgm4b.xml. I ran the tests again. Results: jing -c tgm4.rnc tgm4b.xml -> validates (silent completion) jing tgm4.rng tgm4b.xml -> unhandled exception from main xmllint --schema tgm4.xsd tgm4b.xml --noout -> validates The 3rd tgz file has the results of running jing in all instances. Thanks. 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<20050117213159.QPU22154.mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:31:59 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [81.103.193.124]) by aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050117213159.VQQW3760.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[192.168.1.100]> for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:31:59 +0000 Message-ID: <41EC2ECD.1050109@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:31:57 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] date datatype, w3c, java, aargh X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:32:06 -0000 I've got an element called with an attribute "value" containing the date or time of death. "value" is defined as follows: tei.temporalExpr.attributes.value.content = xsd:date | xsd:gYear | xsd:gMonth | xsd:gDay | xsd:gYearMonth | xsd:gMonthDay | xsd:time | xsd:dateTime allowing for all sorts of variants. Sometimes, this works. But sometimes I get irrational errors when using Jing. For example, it tells me that the value here is bad. How to pin this down? Well, I observe that I get the error when I use the Java 1.5 JRE, but not when I use the Java 1.4. I am scrabbling around here. Does anyone have any clues where I can follow this up? Where does Jing get its datatype library from? deep in Java somewhere? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk From george@oxygenxml.com Tue Jan 18 05:55:32 2005 Received: from editor.oxygenxml.com ([66.28.63.106]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0HMtWHR031338 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:55:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [82.77.161.48] ([82.77.161.48]) by editor.oxygenxml.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I07hjF029430; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:07:47 -0600 Message-ID: <41EC4EF6.6020503@oxygenxml.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:49:10 +0200 From: George Cristian Bina User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] date datatype, w3c, java, aargh References: <41EC2ECD.1050109@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <41EC2ECD.1050109@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:55:33 -0000 Hi Sebastian, We run into this problem last Friday and I traced it down. The implementation the the GregorianCalendar class was changed in Java 1.5. Deep down Jing gets an IllegalArgumentException with the message HOUR_OF_DAY (or something like that) in the GregorianCalendar class and that causes the date datatype not to work. The best thing is to stay with Java 1.4 for now. As soon as I will get in the office I can send more details about the exact part of the code that has this problem if that helps. Best Regards, George --------------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina XML Editor, Schema Editor and XSLT Editor/Debugger http://www.oxygenxml.com Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I've got an element called with an attribute "value" containing > the date or time > of death. "value" is defined as follows: > > tei.temporalExpr.attributes.value.content = > xsd:date > | xsd:gYear > | xsd:gMonth > | xsd:gDay > | xsd:gYearMonth > | xsd:gMonthDay > | xsd:time > | xsd:dateTime > > allowing for all sorts of variants. > > Sometimes, this works. But sometimes I get irrational errors > when using Jing. For example, it tells me that the value > here > > is bad. > > How to pin this down? Well, I observe that I get the error when I use > the Java 1.5 JRE, > but not when I use the Java 1.4. > > I am scrabbling around here. Does anyone have any clues where I can > follow this up? > Where does Jing get its datatype library from? deep in Java somewhere? > From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 18 06:16:49 2005 Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0HNGmpQ033295 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:16:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050117231643.MEHP15581.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:16:43 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [81.103.193.124]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050117231643.ZCLL15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:16:43 +0000 Message-ID: <41EC4759.7020004@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:16:41 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: George Cristian Bina Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] date datatype, w3c, java, aargh References: <41EC2ECD.1050109@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <41EC4EF6.6020503@oxygenxml.com> In-Reply-To: <41EC4EF6.6020503@oxygenxml.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:16:49 -0000 George Cristian Bina wrote: > > We run into this problem last Friday and I traced it down. > The implementation the the GregorianCalendar class was changed in Java > 1.5. Deep down Jing gets an IllegalArgumentException with the message > HOUR_OF_DAY (or something like that) in the GregorianCalendar class > and that causes the date datatype not to work. > The best thing is to stay with Java 1.4 for now. As soon as I will get > in the office I can send more details about the exact part of the code > that has this problem if that helps. > thanks very much! I am glad to know it really is a broken bit of Java, thats makes life easier. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk From george@oxygenxml.com Tue Jan 18 15:30:21 2005 Received: from editor2.oxygenxml.com (ltf220.chi.us.siteprotect.com [64.41.74.152]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0I8UJO3077391 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:30:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.23] (ip-nat-internal.sync.ro [217.156.64.245]) by editor2.oxygenxml.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454D011C156; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:22:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41ECCA60.6050506@oxygenxml.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:35:44 +0200 From: George Cristian Bina User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] date datatype, w3c, java, aargh References: <41EC2ECD.1050109@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> <41EC4EF6.6020503@oxygenxml.com> <41EC4759.7020004@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <41EC4759.7020004@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:30:21 -0000 Hi, Here there are more details about the problem. The exception trace is: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: HOUR_OF_DAY at java.util.GregorianCalendar.computeTime(Unknown Source) at java.util.Calendar.updateTime(Unknown Source) at java.util.Calendar.getTimeInMillis(Unknown Source) at java.util.Calendar.getTime(Unknown Source) at com.thaiopensource.datatype.xsd.DateTimeDatatype.createDate(DateTimeDatatype.java:260) at com.thaiopensource.datatype.xsd.DateTimeDatatype.getValue(DateTimeDatatype.java:195) at com.thaiopensource.datatype.xsd.DateTimeDatatype.allowsValue(DateTimeDatatype.java:70) at com.thaiopensource.datatype.xsd.DateTimeDatatype.isValid(DateTimeDatatype.java:40) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivFunction.caseData(DataDerivFunction.java:82) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataPattern.apply(DataPattern.java:25) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.Pattern.applyForPattern(Pattern.java:97) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivType.dataDeriv(DataDerivType.java:9) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDataDerivType.dataDeriv(DataDataDerivType.java:23) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.PatternMemo.dataDeriv(PatternMemo.java:182) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivFunction.memoApply(DataDerivFunction.java:133) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivFunction.caseAfter(DataDerivFunction.java:97) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.AfterPattern.apply(AfterPattern.java:17) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.Pattern.applyForPattern(Pattern.java:97) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDerivType.dataDeriv(DataDerivType.java:9) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.DataDataDerivType.dataDeriv(DataDataDerivType.java:23) at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.PatternMemo.dataDeriv(PatternMemo.java:182) The line numbers may be a little different as I added a couple of debug lines in the code to figure out what happens. Commenting the following lines in the DateTimeDatatype.createDate method: // Using a time zone of "GMT+XX:YY" doesn't work with JDK 1.1, so we have to do it like this. cal.set(Calendar.ZONE_OFFSET, tzOffset); cal.set(Calendar.DST_OFFSET, 0); makes the date datatype work with Java 1.5 but I do not know if this is the right fix for this problem. Hope that helps, George --------------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina XML Editor, Schema Editor and XSLT Editor/Debugger http://www.oxygenxml.com Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > George Cristian Bina wrote: > >> >> We run into this problem last Friday and I traced it down. >> The implementation the the GregorianCalendar class was changed in Java >> 1.5. Deep down Jing gets an IllegalArgumentException with the message >> HOUR_OF_DAY (or something like that) in the GregorianCalendar class >> and that causes the date datatype not to work. >> The best thing is to stay with Java 1.4 for now. As soon as I will get >> in the office I can send more details about the exact part of the code >> that has this problem if that helps. >> > thanks very much! I am glad to know it really is a broken bit of Java, > thats makes life easier. > From george@oxygenxml.com Wed Jan 19 00:02:49 2005 Received: from editor2.oxygenxml.com (ltf220.chi.us.siteprotect.com [64.41.74.152]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0IH2mjs023057 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:02:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.23] (ip-nat-internal.sync.ro [217.156.64.245]) by editor2.oxygenxml.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C394711C947 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:54:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41ED426E.5030908@oxygenxml.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:07:58 +0200 From: George Cristian Bina User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] [ANN] oXygen XML Editor 5.1 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:02:50 -0000 I am really glad to announce a new version of XML Editor. The main additions in version 5.1 are folding, code templates, better Relax NG support, Schematron validation and the possibility to use MSXML and XSLTProc as XSLT transformers. The full list of new features with descriptions and a few video demonstrations can be found at: http://www.oxygenxml.com/index.html#new-version The better Relax NG support means an improved content completion support and a model view implementation based on Relax NG. The content completion is now context sensitive and is able to present attribute values. Also ID values are collected during validation and presented for IDREF or IDREFS attribute values. The model view offers schema information for the current element like name, namespace, attributes and also presents part of the current validation pattern that corresponds to the element model. The Schematron support includes support for validating XML documents with Relax NG schemas that contain embedded Schematron rules. Best Regards, George --------------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina XML Editor, Schema Editor and XSLT Editor/Debugger http://www.oxygenxml.com From dsewell@virginia.edu Thu Jan 20 07:21:43 2005 Received: from unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (unix.mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.28]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0K0Lhws003497 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:21:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU (smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.22.52]) by unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB10C4E050 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from lister.ei.virginia.edu (lister.ei.Virginia.EDU [128.143.31.45]) by smtp.mail.Virginia.EDU (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B30211E9 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:21:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:21:41 -0500 (EST) From: David Sewell X-X-Sender: drs2n@lister.ei.virginia.edu To: Relax NG list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Tools to "compile" RNG + included schema into single schema? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:21:43 -0000 Is there a tool that takes a Relax NG schema that includes one or more other schema files, and produces a single Relax NG file that is reasonably human-readable? I know about and have used rng2srng, but the simple-syntax form it produces is optimized for machine processing and is not what you'd call readable code. Is there an alternative? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell@virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From ndw@nwalsh.com Thu Jan 20 09:27:45 2005 Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (mailnull@outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0K2RiF8014682 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:27:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 64-60-242-179.cust.telepacific.net ([64.60.242.179] helo=localhost) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.42) id 1CrS2x-000PAr-O3; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:27:44 -0500 Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CrS2t-0006Rp-VG; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:27:39 -0800 To: David Sewell References: From: Norman Walsh X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:27:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: (David Sewell's message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:21:41 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: <87zmz425t0.fsf@nwalsh.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 64.60.242.179 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: nwalsh Cc: Relax NG list Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Tools to "compile" RNG + included schema into single schema? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:27:45 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / David Sewell was heard to say: | Is there a tool that takes a Relax NG schema that includes one or more | other schema files, and produces a single Relax NG file that is | reasonably human-readable? The DocBook NG toolchain includes a stylesheet that does this. Basically it converts RNC to RNG, expands includes, then converts the RNG back to RNC. The result is reasonably readable. If that sounds like what you're after, let me know. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | The hour which gives us life begins to http://nwalsh.com/ | take it away.-- Seneca --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB7xcbOyltUcwYWjsRAlhSAKCIVVAjgRlLLAIeDYG1k6qZFocUNgCfTcKm HoHrnQFVapz0N9QNlKcDCDk= =qZcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Jan 20 12:49:41 2005 Received: from stub.davidashen.net (247.15.113.217.auto.web.am [217.113.20.247] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0K5ncGD030987 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:49:40 +0700 (ICT) Received: from board.home.davidashen.net (board.home.davidashen.net [192.168.1.3]) by stub.davidashen.net (8.12.9p2/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0K5pJ8T087344 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:51:19 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@davidashen.net) Received: from [192.168.1.22] (pillow.home.davidashen.net [192.168.1.22]) by board.home.davidashen.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j0K5mslR038306 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:48:54 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@davidashen.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0B8CD134-6AA7-11D9-B786-000A95839B02@davidashen.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Tools to "compile" RNG + included schema into single schema? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:49:26 +0400 To: Relax NG list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 05:49:41 -0000 On 20.01.2005, at 4:21, David Sewell wrote: > Is there a tool that takes a Relax NG schema that includes one or more > other schema files, and produces a single Relax NG file that is > reasonably human-readable? http://ftp.davidashen.net/incelim/ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Fri Jan 21 06:27:59 2005 Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.15] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0KNRwpf047671 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 06:27:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050120232752.PILZ2441.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:27:52 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (really [81.103.193.124]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050120232752.NLZJ15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:27:52 +0000 Message-ID: <41F03E75.5040706@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:27:49 +0000 From: Sebastian Rahtz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: Tools to "compile" RNG + included schema into single schema? References: <87zmz425t0.fsf@nwalsh.com> In-Reply-To: <87zmz425t0.fsf@nwalsh.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Relax NG list X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:27:59 -0000 Norman Walsh wrote: >The DocBook NG toolchain includes a stylesheet that does this. Basically >it converts RNC to RNG, expands includes, then converts the RNG back >to RNC. The result is reasonably readable. If that sounds like what >you're after, let me know. > > the TEI XSLT collection has one too, called "expandincludes.xsl" (based on work by David Tolpin) -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu Jan 27 20:38:20 2005 Received: from muaix01.mcs.muohio.edu (muaix01.mcs.muohio.edu [134.53.6.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0RDcIN7007556 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:38:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mulnx12.mcs.muohio.edu (mulnx12.mcs.muohio.edu [134.53.6.67]) by muaix01.mcs.muohio.edu (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j0RDcH4Z236386 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:38:17 -0500 Received: from muw2k05 (muw2k05.mcs.muohio.edu [134.53.6.19]) by mulnx12.mcs.muohio.edu (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with SMTP id j0RDcH8c006704 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:38:17 -0500 Received: From mcsaix02.mcs.muohio.edu ([134.53.253.26]) by muw2k05 (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.345); id 1106832956859; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:35:56 -0500 Received: from [134.53.145.123] ([134.53.145.123]) by mcsaix02.mcs.muohio.edu (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j0RDbYuR107444 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:37:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:37:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 Subject: [relaxng-user] trang/jing bugs? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:38:20 -0000 A variety of bugs in Trang and Jing have been noted here in the past month or two (I noting one that causes Trang to crash when converting to xsd), but James seem to be MIA again. I hope everything's OK in Thailand, but aside from that, how are these bugs going to get fixed and new releases distributed? These tools -- particularly Trang -- are critical to the success of RNG. Bruce PS - I just ran across another minor bug in Trang. When converting a schema with an included file "foo.rnc" to xsd, that included file is converted to a file with a filename of "fooxsd" rather than "foo.xsd." From elharo@metalab.unc.edu Thu Jan 27 22:22:36 2005 Received: from mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.30]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0RFMZPx020033 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:22:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 20581 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2005 15:22:34 -0000 Received: from dsl254-067-087.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.100]) (elharo@[216.254.67.87]) (envelope-sender ) by mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 27 Jan 2005 15:22:34 -0000 Message-ID: <41F90739.8090307@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:22:33 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang/jing bugs? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:22:36 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > A variety of bugs in Trang and Jing have been noted here in the past > month or two (I noting one that causes Trang to crash when converting to > xsd), but James seem to be MIA again. I hope everything's OK in > Thailand, but aside from that, how are these bugs going to get fixed and > new releases distributed? These tools -- particularly Trang -- are > critical to the success of RNG. > You know I hadn't even thought of that. James is normally so quite, I didn't realize he'd gone missing. Has anyone heard from him since the Tsunami? I'm suddenly a little worried. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu Jan 27 22:30:18 2005 Received: from muaix02.mcs.muohio.edu (muaix02.mcs.muohio.edu [134.53.6.35]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0RFUIO2021061 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:30:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mulnx12.mcs.muohio.edu (mulnx12.mcs.muohio.edu [134.53.6.67]) by muaix02.mcs.muohio.edu (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j0RFUHxM119796 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:30:17 -0500 Received: from muw2k04 (muw2k04.mcs.muohio.edu [134.53.6.18]) by mulnx12.mcs.muohio.edu (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with SMTP id j0RFUHDS019926 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:30:17 -0500 Received: From mcsaix06.mcs.muohio.edu ([134.53.253.28]) by muw2k04 (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.345); id 110683973293; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:28:52 -0500 Received: from [134.53.145.76] ([134.53.145.76]) by mcsaix06.mcs.muohio.edu (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j0RFUF7K114484 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:30:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <41F90739.8090307@metalab.unc.edu> References: <41F90739.8090307@metalab.unc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5520D772-7078-11D9-B2CE-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang/jing bugs? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:30:11 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:30:19 -0000 On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:22 AM, Elliotte Harold wrote: > You know I hadn't even thought of that. James is normally so quite, I > didn't realize he'd gone missing. Just to be clear, I meant MIA in more metaphorical terms I guess. There was a period of six months or so last year when he wasn't posting anything (code, public emails, etc.). He then popped his head up for a few weeks, and has since been quiet. The tsunami did indeed happen within this timeframe, but I wasn't making any sort of connection between them. Bruce From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Fri Jan 28 21:42:28 2005 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.198]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j0SEgRqi074936 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:42:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j086140.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.86.140]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE22B12D86 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:42:22 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:41:31 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] trang/jing bugs? In-Reply-To: <5520D772-7078-11D9-B2CE-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> References: <41F90739.8090307@metalab.unc.edu> <5520D772-7078-11D9-B2CE-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer-Plugin: BkASPil for Becky!2 Ver.2.030 Message-Id: <20050128233915.59D4.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.12.01 [ja] X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:42:29 -0000 Fortunately, James is fine. I will call him about bugs of jing and trang. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) From veillard@redhat.com Mon Feb 14 03:34:11 2005 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j1DKYA8D002273 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:34:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1DKYAPO024451 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:34:10 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1DKYAO30814 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:34:10 -0500 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1DKYAeX004617 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:34:10 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j1DKYA5c004615 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:34:10 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:34:10 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20050213203410.GK1718@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:34:11 -0000 Hi, I tried to load the spec from my bookmark: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/ I got redirected to http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=relax-ng and got an empty blank page (Firefox on Linux with a squid proxy) Firefox view source indicates , is it just me or is something going on at www.oasis-open.org ? thanks, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Fri Feb 25 16:05:38 2005 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j1P95bQl098279 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:05:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1P95aAl026699 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:36 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 26638-02-4 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1P95LbT026675 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:21 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:17 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:17 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B648@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Using relames | msv thread-index: AcUbGR81laM9KLG2RhaoTx+1yB74WA== From: "Pawson, David" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2005 09:05:17.0179 (UTC) FILETIME=[1FD014B0:01C51B19] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j1P95bQl098279 Subject: [relaxng-user] Using relames | msv X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:38 -0000 Has anyone a script that uses msv for Schematron aware validation of an rng+xml pair please? What's the driver class to use it with an explicit -cp call? I tried com/sun/msv/schematron/Driver and its the same error? Error below. >set CLASSPATH=/myjava/msv/relames.jar;/myjava/msv/xalan.jar; \ /myjava/msv/xercesImple.jar;/myjava/msv/relaxngDatatype.jar; \ /myjava/msv/msv.jar;/myjava/msv/isorelax.jar >java -jar /myjava/msv/relames.jar lexlang.rng lexlang.xml relmes verifier Copyright(C) Sun Microsystems, Inc. 2001 parsing lexlang.rng Exception in thread "main" java.lang.AbstractMethodError: com.sun.msv.schematron .reader.PrefixResolverImpl.handlesNullPrefixes()Z at org.apache.xpath.compiler.Lexer.tokenize(Lexer.java:391) at org.apache.xpath.compiler.Lexer.tokenize(Lexer.java:134) at org.apache.xpath.compiler.XPathParser.initMatchPattern(XPathParser.ja va:230) at org.apache.xpath.XPath.(XPath.java:204) at org.apache.xpath.XPath.(XPath.java:238) at com.sun.msv.schematron.reader.SRuleState.endSelf(Unknown Source) at com.sun.msv.reader.SimpleState.endElement(SimpleState.java:100) at org.xml.sax.helpers.XMLFilterImpl.endElement(XMLFilterImpl.java:595) at com.sun.msv.reader.trex.TREXBaseReader.endElement(TREXBaseReader.java :181) at com.sun.msv.reader.trex.ng.RELAXNGReader.endElement(RELAXNGReader.jav a:533) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.AbstractSAXParser.endElement(Unknown Source ) at org.apache.xerces.impl.XMLNSDocumentScannerImpl.scanEndElement(Unknow n Source) at org.apache.xerces.impl.XMLDocumentFragmentScannerImpl$FragmentContent Dispatcher.dispatch(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.impl.XMLDocumentFragmentScannerImpl.scanDocument(Un known Source) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.DTDConfiguration.parse(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.DTDConfiguration.parse(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.XMLParser.parse(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.AbstractSAXParser.parse(Unknown Source) at com.sun.msv.reader.GrammarReader._parse(GrammarReader.java:462) at com.sun.msv.reader.GrammarReader.parse(GrammarReader.java:446) at com.sun.msv.schematron.reader.SRELAXNGReader.parse(Unknown Source) at com.sun.msv.schematron.Driver.main(Unknown Source) TIA DaveP. **** snip here ***** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From george@oxygenxml.com Mon Feb 28 19:28:20 2005 Received: from decebal.sync.ro (ip-nat-internal.sync.ro [217.156.64.245]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j1SCSJob030260 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:28:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.23] (unknown [10.0.0.23]) by decebal.sync.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4692360477; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:28:18 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <42231028.3030305@oxygenxml.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:35:52 +0200 From: George Cristian Bina User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? References: <20050213203410.GK1718@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20050213203410.GK1718@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:28:20 -0000 Hi Daniel, Firefox on my machine works without problems starting from the link in your post. The spec is at: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/spec-20011203.html Best Regards, George --------------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina XML Editor, Schema Editor and XSLT Editor/Debugger http://www.oxygenxml.com Daniel Veillard wrote: > Hi, > > I tried to load the spec from my bookmark: > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/ > I got redirected to > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=relax-ng > and got an empty blank page (Firefox on Linux with a squid proxy) > Firefox view source indicates , > is it just me or is something going on at www.oasis-open.org ? > > thanks, > > Daniel > From davep@dpawson.co.uk Tue Mar 1 00:36:00 2005 Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with SMTP id j1SHZxKH065473 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:35:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 30904 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2005 17:35:59 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO 192.168.2.7) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Feb 2005 17:35:59 -0000 From: Dave Pawson To: RelaxNG user List Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:35:58 +0000 Message-Id: <1109612158.5581.15.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] msv + Schematron X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:36:00 -0000 I've had a couple of days trying to catch up with Norm. Using the Schematron extension to msv: In case anyone else trips over it: Don't use the element, if the context is the same as 'current()' msv bombs. Just use the s:assert test="" Works great. Another big grin day! Relax NG + Schematron in one package! I'll try and do a write up for the faq. -- Regards, Dave Pawson XSLT + Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk From gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Tue Mar 1 10:15:33 2005 Received: from mail.storm.ca (mail.storm.ca [209.87.239.66]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j213FXM2047378 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:15:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from CRANE-T23.CraneSoftwrights.com (p155.n-dcpop03.stsn.com [63.240.218.155]) by mail.storm.ca (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j213FWVk018160 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:15:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20050228220727.00bbb0b0@pop.storm.ca> X-Sender: crane@cranesoftwrights.com@pop.storm.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:14:43 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? In-Reply-To: <20050213203410.GK1718@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66822A9F X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 03:15:33 -0000 At 2005-02-13 15:34 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: >I tried to load the spec from my bookmark: > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/ >I got redirected to > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=relax-ng >and got an empty blank page (Firefox on Linux with a squid proxy) >Firefox view source indicates , >is it just me or is something going on at www.oasis-open.org ? Since RELAX-NG is now ISO/IEC 19757-2, with the compact syntax as an amendment, you can find drafts of this specification at: http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0320.htm http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0591c.htm Please spread the word that RELAX-NG is now an ISO International Standard ... perhaps this is what will help vendors embrace it. BTW, Schematron is in the balloting process as ISO/IEC 19757-3. I hope this helps you as well, Daniel. ......................... Ken -- World-wide on-site corporate, govt. & user group XML/XSL training. G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal From bob@objfac.com Tue Mar 1 10:48:52 2005 Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (postfix@pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j213mpex049959 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:48:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (adsl-68-127-163-80.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.127.163.80]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C31B15551B; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:48:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4223E620.90201@objfac.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:48:48 -0800 From: Bob Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Ken Holman" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050228220727.00bbb0b0@pop.storm.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050228220727.00bbb0b0@pop.storm.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 03:48:52 -0000 It's a strange world where a great idea with an open specification isn't as well accepted as the same idea with a closed specification! Bob Foster G. Ken Holman wrote: > At 2005-02-13 15:34 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > >> I tried to load the spec from my bookmark: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/ >> I got redirected to >> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=relax-ng >> and got an empty blank page (Firefox on Linux with a squid proxy) >> Firefox view source indicates , >> is it just me or is something going on at www.oasis-open.org ? > > > Since RELAX-NG is now ISO/IEC 19757-2, with the compact syntax as an > amendment, you can find drafts of this specification at: > > http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0320.htm > http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0591c.htm > > Please spread the word that RELAX-NG is now an ISO International > Standard ... perhaps this is what will help vendors embrace it. > > BTW, Schematron is in the balloting process as ISO/IEC 19757-3. > > I hope this helps you as well, Daniel. > > ......................... Ken > > > -- > World-wide on-site corporate, govt. & user group XML/XSL training. > G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com > Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/ > Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) > Male Breast Cancer Awareness http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/r/bc > Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Mar 1 15:14:57 2005 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j218EuK4071504 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:14:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j218Eua6030958 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:14:56 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 30838-06 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:14:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j218EsiB030941 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:14:54 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:17:03 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:14:53 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B670@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? thread-index: AcUeDWkow0LPAReoQeaHqCSnx/eXMAAJ4PBA From: "Pawson, David" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2005 08:17:03.0803 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CE0F0B0:01C51E37] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:14:57 -0000 -----Original Message----- G. Ken Holman Since RELAX-NG is now ISO/IEC 19757-2, with the compact syntax as an amendment, you can find drafts of this specification at: http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0320.htm http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0591c.htm Anyone know if they are near final? Note that the pdf shows math like output (9.3.8) , the pdf is a long way from the XML. The ancilliary files to the XML version are in a forbidden directory (no dir listing) so the xml may be incomplete. What sort of transform have they done? regards DaveP -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From alexb@griffinbrown.co.uk Tue Mar 1 16:04:29 2005 Received: from griffinbrown.co.uk (waltz.griffinbrown.co.uk [80.177.145.170] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j2194S4c080187 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:04:29 +0700 (ICT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:05:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: <9050BB535199934CBEBF07037DEBA02302573D@trot.gbdp.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? Thread-Index: AcUeDWkow0LPAReoQeaHqCSnx/eXMAAJ4PBAAAIAp/A= From: "Alex Brown" To: "Pawson, David" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j2194S4c080187 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:04:29 -0000 Dave hi Relax NG itself is a published ISO standard. Relax NG Compact is nearly there, but is not expected to differ from the draft in its final stages. It's possible to keep track of the various parts of DSDL (aka ISO 19757) at http://www.dsdl.org/ - Alex. > -----Original Message----- > From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org > [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Pawson, David > Sent: 01 March 2005 08:15 > To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? > > > > -----Original Message----- > G. Ken Holman > Since RELAX-NG is now ISO/IEC 19757-2, with the compact > syntax as an amendment, you can find drafts of this > specification at: > > http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0320.htm > http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0591c.htm > > Anyone know if they are near final? > > > Note that the pdf shows math like output (9.3.8) , the pdf is > a long way from the XML. > > The ancilliary files to the XML version are in a forbidden > directory (no dir listing) so the xml may be incomplete. > > What sort of transform have they done? > > > > regards DaveP > > -- > DISCLAIMER: > > NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any > attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you > are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, > distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any > attachment; you are requested to notify the sender > immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete > it and any attachments from your system. > > RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments > generated by its staff are free from viruses or other > contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility > for any such which are transmitted. > We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. > > Please note that the statements and views expressed in this > email and any attachments are those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of RNIB. > > RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 > > Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > From alexb@griffinbrown.co.uk Tue Mar 1 16:13:19 2005 Received: from griffinbrown.co.uk (waltz.griffinbrown.co.uk [80.177.145.170] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j219DIJd081629 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:13:19 +0700 (ICT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:14:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: <9050BB535199934CBEBF07037DEBA02302573E@trot.gbdp.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? Thread-Index: AcUeDWkow0LPAReoQeaHqCSnx/eXMAAJ4PBAAAIAp/AAACIysA== From: "Alex Brown" To: "Pawson, David" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j219DIJd081629 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:13:19 -0000 Dave hi ... and for RELAX NG the published ISO standard is an identical specification to that of final draft available at http://www.dsdl.org/relaxng-is.pdf. There are some very minor differences between the OASIS and ISO core spec, but a more substantial difference in that the 'DTD compatibility' features of the OASIS spec and not part of the ISO standard - so ISO RELAX NG currently defines (for example) no mechanism for attribute defaulting. - Alex. > -----Original Message----- > From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org > [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Alex Brown > Sent: 01 March 2005 09:06 > To: Pawson, David; relaxng-user@relaxng.org > Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? > > Dave hi > > Relax NG itself is a published ISO standard. > > Relax NG Compact is nearly there, but is not expected to > differ from the draft in its final stages. > > It's possible to keep track of the various parts of DSDL (aka > ISO 19757) at http://www.dsdl.org/ > > - Alex. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org > > [mailto:relaxng-user-bounces@relaxng.org] On Behalf Of Pawson, David > > Sent: 01 March 2005 08:15 > > To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > > Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > G. Ken Holman > > Since RELAX-NG is now ISO/IEC 19757-2, with the compact > > syntax as an amendment, you can find drafts of this > > specification at: > > > > http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0320.htm > > http://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0591c.htm > > > > Anyone know if they are near final? > > > > > > Note that the pdf shows math like output (9.3.8) , the pdf > is a long > > way from the XML. > > > > The ancilliary files to the XML version are in a forbidden > directory > > (no dir listing) so the xml may be incomplete. > > > > What sort of transform have they done? > > > > > > > > regards DaveP > > > > -- > > DISCLAIMER: > > > > NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any > attachments is > > confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended > > recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy > any of the > > content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the > > sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to > delete it > > and any attachments from your system. > > > > RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments > generated by > > its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it > > cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are > transmitted. > > We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. > > > > Please note that the statements and views expressed in this > email and > > any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily > > represent those of RNIB. > > > > RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 > > > > Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > relaxng-user mailing list > > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > > > > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > From jirka@kosek.cz Tue Mar 1 17:46:03 2005 Received: from mail.bluetone.cz (ns1.bluetone.cz [212.158.128.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21Ak3Ha093969 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:46:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.1] (adsl-lib146-121-244-84.bluetone.cz [84.244.121.146]) by mail.bluetone.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E771A65D0 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:45:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422447E5.1020105@kosek.cz> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:45:57 +0100 From: Jirka Kosek User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: cs, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080803010703050300070703" Subject: [relaxng-user] Strange difference between mixed and interleave X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:46:04 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080803010703050300070703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I always thought that X is just shorthand for X . But given document

text fddfdf ddfdf dfdfdf dfdf ddf dfdfdf

it can be validated with schema that uses interleave: grammar xmlns=3D"http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"> but when I use mixed it doesn't validate What I am missing? Jirka --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jirka Kosek e-mail: jirka@kosek.cz http://www.kosek.cz ------------------------------------------------------------------ Profesion=E1ln=ED =B9kolen=ED a poradenstv=ED v oblasti technologi=ED= XML. Pod=EDvejte se na n=E1=B9 nov=EC spu=B9t=ECn=FD web http://DocBoo= k.cz Podrobn=FD p=F8ehled =B9kolen=ED http://xmlguru.cz/skoleni/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------ms080803010703050300070703 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIII3TCC AskwggIyoAMCAQICAwv6PDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UE ChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNv bmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMzIzMTA1NzUyWhcNMDUwMzIzMTA1NzUy WjBAMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMR0wGwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5q aXJrYUBrb3Nlay5jejCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAJ+Vjw7E3HS/ f/A9zEkHZV2taKasRP+7m3ci2klXy4RLPRWXed1QA7UOTuoPtAOMbkZHnybwzzfpvPJHpzoH 89yNPfjrbYcHvetY3bTptS8yYCFfYhsfe9flokSKzCPhK+oWI+e47zzcdC9rmAoQr/1pZhau c0ilfO5FVkp87OUlva/ATT4vbD5qalAKTCsTxL8ysomIMtTKm5LyC+P/A73DR31CvRMKdA6w D1Xkxy4diaK8dZ+aJtb40JQZTpc44Zc5SXiRrZtGRIufNl/l8qKp+HRV8iUDoshfwfnZk4yK MqOUWbKgoludtMfA6nPw9Qb9jtlhP7uxB1m+R9Fth30CAwEAAaMrMCkwGQYDVR0RBBIwEIEO amlya2FAa29zZWsuY3owDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQCapR0NPmWE AaMPnJd5QS8pw3KyE9yqXhckRbMps6M0ikvpewgKgkPen3mxqDX/QY/jQwn+nSNMdF4a/Cvy COPVW+lDXi5j7GTd+VVvhGoiDTvbNMykWzcph0S6BqAerk3ulHXOReWNdPhxae+Z1FVAulyP b9vd7Es/YlhuuiZeZzCCAskwggIyoAMCAQICAwv6PDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYD VQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMzIzMTA1NzUy WhcNMDUwMzIzMTA1NzUyWjBAMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMR0w GwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5qaXJrYUBrb3Nlay5jejCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCC AQoCggEBAJ+Vjw7E3HS/f/A9zEkHZV2taKasRP+7m3ci2klXy4RLPRWXed1QA7UOTuoPtAOM bkZHnybwzzfpvPJHpzoH89yNPfjrbYcHvetY3bTptS8yYCFfYhsfe9flokSKzCPhK+oWI+e4 7zzcdC9rmAoQr/1pZhauc0ilfO5FVkp87OUlva/ATT4vbD5qalAKTCsTxL8ysomIMtTKm5Ly C+P/A73DR31CvRMKdA6wD1Xkxy4diaK8dZ+aJtb40JQZTpc44Zc5SXiRrZtGRIufNl/l8qKp +HRV8iUDoshfwfnZk4yKMqOUWbKgoludtMfA6nPw9Qb9jtlhP7uxB1m+R9Fth30CAwEAAaMr MCkwGQYDVR0RBBIwEIEOamlya2FAa29zZWsuY3owDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQQFAAOBgQCapR0NPmWEAaMPnJd5QS8pw3KyE9yqXhckRbMps6M0ikvpewgKgkPen3mxqDX/ QY/jQwn+nSNMdF4a/CvyCOPVW+lDXi5j7GTd+VVvhGoiDTvbNMykWzcph0S6BqAerk3ulHXO ReWNdPhxae+Z1FVAulyPb9vd7Es/YlhuuiZeZzCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcN AQEFBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcT CUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRp ZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBG cmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNv bTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYD VQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA xKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkV cI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUq VIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMG A1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3dGVQZXJzb25hbEZy ZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgGA1UEAxMRUHJp dmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcPf6+svsIX oUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH2ydx VyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggM7MIIDNwIBATBpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGlu ZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWlu ZyBDQQIDC/o8MAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggGnMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJ KoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTA1MDMwMTEwNDU1N1owIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFHnJXPqP6zcbXzUs wmCVWKx7PbQAMFIGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzFFMEMwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCA MA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMHgGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFr MGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0 ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgML+jww egYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxa6BpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29u c3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwg SXNzdWluZyBDQQIDC/o8MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAByqgRDW+sS0SNAs4965UbGuoRw8 Z67hnk+Q1HwOXEy8PsWihT6yR5gEPrfZb1VkOglEumuR6NNAzORDjEMfgVZoH7QHGo4mtckg P+j1JFaj0v7GkgbkBxwIHEKYtrvxucTh5hYo7EoqbgQtpqJySEQENo7e4ShBQWh6X3B22bUE ZUtrqjUQHyPnTecv4i6jy3IIIo5erqPPKTl23s4LgVNWpx9fPMThyfyZmHqAv+ZL2dK4Mr8M Dm4T6E9iae3F1fl88nA8dAXEuHgLLyUcSKMJcD1+aKU5Wb5h/vkn6WvpXck+9m232meHO+IV olhNd7Ce+NZYqJxSjWewtHhP3XoAAAAAAAA= --------------ms080803010703050300070703-- From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Mar 1 18:41:29 2005 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21BfQ09001582 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:41:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j21BfPL9025826; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:41:25 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 25690-01-10; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:41:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j21BeRnc025660; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:40:28 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:40:31 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:40:28 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B67C@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? thread-index: AcUeDWkow0LPAReoQeaHqCSnx/eXMAAJ4PBAAAIAp/AAACIysAAFbn0g From: "Pawson, David" To: "Alex Brown" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2005 11:40:32.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[798CB2F0:01C51E53] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:41:29 -0000 Thanks Alex. -----Original Message----- From: Alex Brown ... and for RELAX NG the published ISO standard is an identical specification to that of final draft available at http://www.dsdl.org/relaxng-is.pdf. Thanks. At least from the XML an accessible version could be produced, are ISO exempt from ADA accessibility laws in the US? Will the XML version of the compact syntax be made available too? regards DaveP -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From alexb@griffinbrown.co.uk Tue Mar 1 19:15:28 2005 Received: from griffinbrown.co.uk (waltz.griffinbrown.co.uk [80.177.145.170] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21CFRR4006551 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:15:28 +0700 (ICT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:16:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: <9050BB535199934CBEBF07037DEBA02302573F@trot.gbdp.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? Thread-Index: AcUeDWkow0LPAReoQeaHqCSnx/eXMAAJ4PBAAAIAp/AAACIysAAFbn0gAAEN4KA= From: "Alex Brown" To: "Pawson, David" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j21CFRR4006551 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:15:28 -0000 Dave hi I'll see if I can make XML for all these documents available too, but this will not be until next week. I'm afraid I don't know if the ADA accessibility laws apply to ISO documents. - Alex. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pawson, David [mailto:David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk] > Sent: 01 March 2005 11:40 > To: Alex Brown; relaxng-user@relaxng.org > Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Cannot fetch the Relax-NG spec ? > > Thanks Alex. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Brown > > ... and for RELAX NG the published ISO standard is an > identical specification to that of final draft available at > http://www.dsdl.org/relaxng-is.pdf. > Thanks. At least from the XML an accessible version could be > produced, are ISO exempt from ADA accessibility laws in the US? > > Will the XML version of the compact syntax be made available too? > > regards DaveP > > -- > DISCLAIMER: > > NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any > attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you > are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, > distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any > attachment; you are requested to notify the sender > immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete > it and any attachments from your system. > > RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments > generated by its staff are free from viruses or other > contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility > for any such which are transmitted. > We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. > > Please note that the statements and views expressed in this > email and any attachments are those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of RNIB. > > RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 > > Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk > > > > From jirka@kosek.cz Tue Mar 1 20:10:07 2005 Received: from mail.bluetone.cz (ns1.bluetone.cz [212.158.128.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21DA6Lx012859 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:10:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.1] (adsl-lib146-121-244-84.bluetone.cz [84.244.121.146]) by mail.bluetone.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E35E1A65BD; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:10:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422469A9.8080006@kosek.cz> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:10:01 +0100 From: Jirka Kosek User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: cs, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pawson, David" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Strange difference between mixed and interleave References: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B67D@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B67D@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090602060506070009080508" Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:10:07 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090602060506070009080508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pawson, David wrote: > I think you need > for the any order, and > for the text/elements. >=20 > I.e. you need both. mixed specifies order. >=20 > I think:-) Yes. So X is shorthand for X . Which is not=20 completely clear from specification if you read it with programmer eyes=20 not computer scientists eyes. > See page 57 chapter 6 of 'the book' I think that problem is at the bottom of page 53 where there Eric is=20 comparing mixed to interleave on example with one child element in mixed = content where there is no distinction between mixed and interleave. But=20 in the real world (DocBook, XHTML) mixed content models contain many=20 elements. --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jirka Kosek e-mail: jirka@kosek.cz http://www.kosek.cz ------------------------------------------------------------------ Profesion=E1ln=ED =B9kolen=ED a poradenstv=ED v oblasti technologi=ED = XML. Pod=EDvejte se na n=E1=B9 nov=EC spu=B9t=ECn=FD web http://DocBook.= cz Podrobn=FD p=F8ehled =B9kolen=ED http://xmlguru.cz/skoleni/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------ms090602060506070009080508 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIII3TCC AskwggIyoAMCAQICAwv6PDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UE ChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNv bmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMzIzMTA1NzUyWhcNMDUwMzIzMTA1NzUy WjBAMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMR0wGwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5q aXJrYUBrb3Nlay5jejCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAJ+Vjw7E3HS/ f/A9zEkHZV2taKasRP+7m3ci2klXy4RLPRWXed1QA7UOTuoPtAOMbkZHnybwzzfpvPJHpzoH 89yNPfjrbYcHvetY3bTptS8yYCFfYhsfe9flokSKzCPhK+oWI+e47zzcdC9rmAoQr/1pZhau c0ilfO5FVkp87OUlva/ATT4vbD5qalAKTCsTxL8ysomIMtTKm5LyC+P/A73DR31CvRMKdA6w D1Xkxy4diaK8dZ+aJtb40JQZTpc44Zc5SXiRrZtGRIufNl/l8qKp+HRV8iUDoshfwfnZk4yK MqOUWbKgoludtMfA6nPw9Qb9jtlhP7uxB1m+R9Fth30CAwEAAaMrMCkwGQYDVR0RBBIwEIEO amlya2FAa29zZWsuY3owDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQCapR0NPmWE AaMPnJd5QS8pw3KyE9yqXhckRbMps6M0ikvpewgKgkPen3mxqDX/QY/jQwn+nSNMdF4a/Cvy COPVW+lDXi5j7GTd+VVvhGoiDTvbNMykWzcph0S6BqAerk3ulHXOReWNdPhxae+Z1FVAulyP b9vd7Es/YlhuuiZeZzCCAskwggIyoAMCAQICAwv6PDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYD VQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMzIzMTA1NzUy WhcNMDUwMzIzMTA1NzUyWjBAMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMR0w GwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5qaXJrYUBrb3Nlay5jejCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCC AQoCggEBAJ+Vjw7E3HS/f/A9zEkHZV2taKasRP+7m3ci2klXy4RLPRWXed1QA7UOTuoPtAOM bkZHnybwzzfpvPJHpzoH89yNPfjrbYcHvetY3bTptS8yYCFfYhsfe9flokSKzCPhK+oWI+e4 7zzcdC9rmAoQr/1pZhauc0ilfO5FVkp87OUlva/ATT4vbD5qalAKTCsTxL8ysomIMtTKm5Ly C+P/A73DR31CvRMKdA6wD1Xkxy4diaK8dZ+aJtb40JQZTpc44Zc5SXiRrZtGRIufNl/l8qKp +HRV8iUDoshfwfnZk4yKMqOUWbKgoludtMfA6nPw9Qb9jtlhP7uxB1m+R9Fth30CAwEAAaMr MCkwGQYDVR0RBBIwEIEOamlya2FAa29zZWsuY3owDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQQFAAOBgQCapR0NPmWEAaMPnJd5QS8pw3KyE9yqXhckRbMps6M0ikvpewgKgkPen3mxqDX/ QY/jQwn+nSNMdF4a/CvyCOPVW+lDXi5j7GTd+VVvhGoiDTvbNMykWzcph0S6BqAerk3ulHXO ReWNdPhxae+Z1FVAulyPb9vd7Es/YlhuuiZeZzCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcN AQEFBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcT CUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRp ZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBG cmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNv bTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYD VQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA xKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkV cI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUq VIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMG A1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3dGVQZXJzb25hbEZy ZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgGA1UEAxMRUHJp dmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcPf6+svsIX oUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH2ydx VyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggM7MIIDNwIBATBpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGlu ZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWlu ZyBDQQIDC/o8MAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggGnMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJ KoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTA1MDMwMTEzMTAwMVowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFAG9fdXriglmourl Tyqrx9HsmLG8MFIGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzFFMEMwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCA MA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMHgGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFr MGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0 ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgML+jww egYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxa6BpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29u c3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwg SXNzdWluZyBDQQIDC/o8MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBABdFUWewskt6CYH4fAmAOTL29P8d l+VWj0S7p7tIp0fvxLX2xi6PCKJRO1WEXLaOxrLyqN+k9tUKAw/ajga9gLSArPIQ2DTHikA1 bew61Y8WZUfkd1l77O+qyzrFkkYR8hcLwkQBpkdURzQPNkAtWBnFR4mbRXaVw4pDJw+z/9bw kfut0LenU6MvIl5rt1/9l+FKt3cttd9SVFuCzLiBR5O//q2e6fYD9XgYayREiHMvnJOigCXt IL7yCubb1U13mkFRFbp76T2pgaYWy5eNTSwxYT/mN1yIVz6Q7chnWZ9Jpu5KKwoZ0C1UngNX ylSaGe//a2xY56L0qnnTGJoWnUEAAAAAAAA= --------------ms090602060506070009080508-- From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Mar 1 20:20:02 2005 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.193]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21DK13j013631 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:20:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j21DJthf004968 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:19:55 GMT Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 04897-01-3 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:19:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk (pbrmsxfe01.rnib.org.uk [10.254.1.124]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j21DJXNt004881 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:19:33 GMT Received: from pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk ([10.1.10.101]) by pbrmsxfe01.ads.rnib.org.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:19:52 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Strange difference between mixed and interleave Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:19:34 -0000 Message-ID: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B681@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [relaxng-user] Strange difference between mixed and interleave thread-index: AcUeYA1KfcBErkOvSr+Zh2ihSK6XjAAAJFiQ From: "Pawson, David" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2005 13:19:52.0538 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A49E3A0:01C51E61] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at rnib.org.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id j21DK13j013631 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:20:02 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Jirka Kosek > See page 57 chapter 6 of 'the book' I think that problem is at the bottom of page 53 where there Eric is comparing mixed to interleave on example with one child element in mixed content where there is no distinction between mixed and interleave. But in the real world (DocBook, XHTML) mixed content models contain many elements. Good point Jirka. I hope Eric is still reading the list. That would make a good example to expand to 'classic' inlines perhaps? Its something I *understood* only this week; Eric does make the point (I can't find it now) that often order is not important, so we should consider interleave more. I think I agree with him. relax ng is still making me smile though :-) regards DaveP -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From jirka@kosek.cz Tue Mar 1 20:26:48 2005 Received: from mail.bluetone.cz (ns1.bluetone.cz [212.158.128.13]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21DQl21014221 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:26:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.0.1] (adsl-lib146-121-244-84.bluetone.cz [84.244.121.146]) by mail.bluetone.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E8C1A65BE; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:26:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <42246D92.5040807@kosek.cz> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:26:42 +0100 From: Jirka Kosek User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: cs, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pawson, David" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Strange difference between mixed and interleave References: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B681@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <47DFC5E9D8B9E4429C2861946386EA9901E9B681@pbrmsx01.ads.rnib.org.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020800080707080600080801" Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:26:49 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020800080707080600080801 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pawson, David wrote: > Good point Jirka.=20 > I hope Eric is still reading the list. That would make a good exampl= e > to expand to 'classic' inlines perhaps? I sent email to DSDL mailing list about this issue so RELAX NG tutorials = can mention this obstacle. Eric is subscribed to this list AFAIK. > Its something I *understood* only this week; Eric does make the point > (I can't find it now) that often order is not important, so we should c= onsider > interleave more. I think I agree with him. Exactly. It means that I can almost forgot mixed pattern, because in=20 document centric grammars I need unordered elements with mixed content=20 which can be modeled only by interleave. --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jirka Kosek e-mail: jirka@kosek.cz http://www.kosek.cz ------------------------------------------------------------------ Profesion=E1ln=ED =B9kolen=ED a poradenstv=ED v oblasti technologi=ED = XML. Pod=EDvejte se na n=E1=B9 nov=EC spu=B9t=ECn=FD web http://DocBook.= cz Podrobn=FD p=F8ehled =B9kolen=ED http://xmlguru.cz/skoleni/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------ms020800080707080600080801 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIII3TCC AskwggIyoAMCAQICAwv6PDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UE ChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNv bmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMzIzMTA1NzUyWhcNMDUwMzIzMTA1NzUy WjBAMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMR0wGwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5q aXJrYUBrb3Nlay5jejCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAJ+Vjw7E3HS/ f/A9zEkHZV2taKasRP+7m3ci2klXy4RLPRWXed1QA7UOTuoPtAOMbkZHnybwzzfpvPJHpzoH 89yNPfjrbYcHvetY3bTptS8yYCFfYhsfe9flokSKzCPhK+oWI+e47zzcdC9rmAoQr/1pZhau c0ilfO5FVkp87OUlva/ATT4vbD5qalAKTCsTxL8ysomIMtTKm5LyC+P/A73DR31CvRMKdA6w D1Xkxy4diaK8dZ+aJtb40JQZTpc44Zc5SXiRrZtGRIufNl/l8qKp+HRV8iUDoshfwfnZk4yK MqOUWbKgoludtMfA6nPw9Qb9jtlhP7uxB1m+R9Fth30CAwEAAaMrMCkwGQYDVR0RBBIwEIEO amlya2FAa29zZWsuY3owDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQCapR0NPmWE AaMPnJd5QS8pw3KyE9yqXhckRbMps6M0ikvpewgKgkPen3mxqDX/QY/jQwn+nSNMdF4a/Cvy COPVW+lDXi5j7GTd+VVvhGoiDTvbNMykWzcph0S6BqAerk3ulHXOReWNdPhxae+Z1FVAulyP b9vd7Es/YlhuuiZeZzCCAskwggIyoAMCAQICAwv6PDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYD VQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMzIzMTA1NzUy WhcNMDUwMzIzMTA1NzUyWjBAMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMR0w GwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5qaXJrYUBrb3Nlay5jejCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCC AQoCggEBAJ+Vjw7E3HS/f/A9zEkHZV2taKasRP+7m3ci2klXy4RLPRWXed1QA7UOTuoPtAOM bkZHnybwzzfpvPJHpzoH89yNPfjrbYcHvetY3bTptS8yYCFfYhsfe9flokSKzCPhK+oWI+e4 7zzcdC9rmAoQr/1pZhauc0ilfO5FVkp87OUlva/ATT4vbD5qalAKTCsTxL8ysomIMtTKm5Ly C+P/A73DR31CvRMKdA6wD1Xkxy4diaK8dZ+aJtb40JQZTpc44Zc5SXiRrZtGRIufNl/l8qKp +HRV8iUDoshfwfnZk4yKMqOUWbKgoludtMfA6nPw9Qb9jtlhP7uxB1m+R9Fth30CAwEAAaMr MCkwGQYDVR0RBBIwEIEOamlya2FAa29zZWsuY3owDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQQFAAOBgQCapR0NPmWEAaMPnJd5QS8pw3KyE9yqXhckRbMps6M0ikvpewgKgkPen3mxqDX/ QY/jQwn+nSNMdF4a/CvyCOPVW+lDXi5j7GTd+VVvhGoiDTvbNMykWzcph0S6BqAerk3ulHXO ReWNdPhxae+Z1FVAulyPb9vd7Es/YlhuuiZeZzCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcN AQEFBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcT CUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRp ZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBG cmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNv bTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYD VQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA xKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkV cI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUq VIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMG A1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3dGVQZXJzb25hbEZy ZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgGA1UEAxMRUHJp dmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcPf6+svsIX oUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH2ydx VyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggM7MIIDNwIBATBpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGlu ZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWlu ZyBDQQIDC/o8MAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggGnMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJ KoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTA1MDMwMTEzMjY0MlowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFIEFsnRiMx7g2ur8 wUvSaZsYNSB3MFIGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzFFMEMwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCA MA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMHgGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFr MGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0 ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgML+jww egYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxa6BpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29u c3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwg SXNzdWluZyBDQQIDC/o8MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAICO1yaifxBfKdUFAATzUA/31xwl wHFuDyzSoZAGX6+I9Q0gFDFr3DPrLdCImIHbG0P2HECPnKPQrqa0/G3ThA9zF82I91NYtvZ6 sHVq0b+Pc9UZuF7AqIAoYJHZ/R4j95nALZDsfxxpYacofnPZS+dWwPYTaT0NkzTMPgFNFc9e eujYW1kwuOIlJPKIuUOTZWCajTLC+8Zz5VRU6JpOGbLSYdsOocO55FpiSNYvnBHO+6Iv7JGG PZ4VjiAxiGCPtoa9DYuQEy9X43sdrGkIfwMApXsBrNg2X+rdVeQL9eJQx+9++uYO5/RCVnwy CyjZvG1nKWgSB9mY+FzfgHrdP6oAAAAAAAA= --------------ms020800080707080600080801-- From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Tue Mar 1 21:31:22 2005 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.11/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j21EVIhe019392 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:31:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (j080161.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [61.213.80.161]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7456EB67; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:31:16 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:30:18 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" To: Jirka Kosek Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Strange difference between mixed and interleave In-Reply-To: <422447E5.1020105@kosek.cz> References: <422447E5.1020105@kosek.cz> X-Mailer-Plugin: BkASPil for Becky!2 Ver.2.030 Message-Id: <20050301232428.DE87.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.12.01 [ja] Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:31:23 -0000 Your second pattern is mixed {(element b {text}*, element i {text}*)}. In other words, cannot precede . Your first pattern is (element b {text}*) & (element i {text}*) & text This allow any