From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 12:40:44 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O5efXr001460 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:40:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O5eZY14055 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:40:35 +0700 Message-ID: <3F712DC5.5060607@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:38:13 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Testing relaxng-user X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:40:47 -0000 This is a test. James From ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk Wed Sep 24 13:48:32 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O6mVjv010515 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:48:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O6mfmr006265 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O6mfbj006262; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) Message-ID: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [relaxng-user] A question on content models X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:48:33 -0000 X-Original-Date: 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:48:33 -0000 ::Migrated from xml-dev:: I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual elements. The master file s the individual ones. The master file has declarations like Individual files usually say something like I use this as a kind of type system. Individual content models may contain Question 1: is this a good way of doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element the common declarations (a group of attributes in this case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, XSD does (thought inheritance). Ari. From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 14:03:43 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O73eOx012919 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:03:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O73XY14549 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:03:33 +0700 Message-ID: <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:01:10 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:03:43 -0000 K. Ari Krupnikov wrote: > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > elements. The master file s the individual ones. > > The master file has declarations like > > > > > > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > > > I use this as a kind of type system. Individual content models may > contain > > > > > > > Question 1: is this a good way of > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? It seems good to me. The only disadvantage is that it may make your schemas harder to understand. You have to weigh that against the better modularity it gives you. > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > XSD does (thought inheritance). Even with inheritance in XSD, you have do do something on every element (namely declare it to have an appropriate type). You can do this in RELAX NG by - having a definition for each type - having each type reference the definition of its base type - having the pattern for each element of that type reference the definition for its type (the ref to this definition is serving the same role as the type attribute in XSD) James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 14:20:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7Kaad015132 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O7KTY14622 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:29 +0700 Message-ID: <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:18:06 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:20:39 -0000 > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > elements. The master file s the individual ones. It's also worth mentioning that you can use a similar technique with attributes. > The master file has declarations like > > > > For sets of attributes, use instead of > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". James From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 14:33:19 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7XI3K016881 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:33:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O7XSmr006430 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O7XRkM006427; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> Message-ID: <86fzimsks8.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:19 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 00:33:27 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:19 -0000 James Clark writes: > > Question 1: is this a good way of > > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? > > It seems good to me. The only disadvantage is that it may make your > schemas harder to understand. You have to weigh that against the > better modularity it gives you. What other (easier to understand, less modular) alternative are you referring to? As far as ease of understanding goes, I tangle the individual RNGs from ``semi-literate'' markup, where the individual elements are documented. It seemed easier to create one RNG per literate document than put them all in one RNG. > > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > > XSD does (thought inheritance). > > Even with inheritance in XSD, you have do do something on every > element (namely declare it to have an appropriate type). You can do > this in RELAX NG by > > - having a definition for each type > > - having each type reference the definition of its base type > > - having the pattern for each element of that type reference the > definition for its type (the ref to this definition is serving the > same role as the type attribute in XSD) How would you then say "any element of this type allowed here"? Ari. From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 14:46:53 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7kreV018629 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:46:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O7l2mr006466 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O7l25a006463; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> Message-ID: <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:46:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:46:54 -0000 James, Thanks for setting up this list, and for answering so promptly. James Clark writes: > > The master file has declarations like > > > > > > > > For sets of attributes, use instead of > > > > This may become a FAQ. What's the difference between empty and notAllowed in this context? Are they ever interchangeable? Would it mean the same if I said this? > > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > > > > > > > Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". For attributes or in general? Again, this may be a FAQ, what's the difference between "choice" and "interleave" in this context? Is the same as Ari. From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Sep 24 15:13:20 2003 Received: from goro.asahi-net.or.jp (goro.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.40]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8DIuh022009 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:13:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from j.asahi-net.or.jp (karl.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.33.31]) by goro.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with SMTP id h8O8DCM88716 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:13:12 +0900 (JST) Received: by j.asahi-net.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 24 Sep 2003 17:13:12 +0900 From: EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Lines: 38 Message-Id: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] common-atts X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 17:13:11 +0900 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0000 > This may become a FAQ. What's the difference between empty and > notAllowed in this context? Are they ever interchangeable? Would it > mean the same if I said this? > > > No, and are not interchangeable. If you write , you allow . If your write , you allow nothing. In the case of your example, use of for class.filter means that allows . Some analogy might help to understand and . The former is similar to 0 and the latter is similar to 1. is simliar to "+". E.g., 0 + x = x p1 = p1 is similar to "*". E.g.., 0 * x = 0 p1 = 1 * x = x p1 = p1 Just like 1+x cannot be simplified, p1 cannot be simplified. Hope this helps. Cheers, Makoto From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 15:29:59 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8Twbk023842 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:29:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O8U8mr006690 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O8U8ED006687; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] common-atts References: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Message-ID: <867k3ysi5r.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0000 EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) writes: > If you write , you allow > . If your write , > you allow nothing. Thank you. I understand it now. What I wanted was an abstract declaration for a type that elements may declare themselves to belong to, so works. Is this the intended use of notAllowed? Ari. From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 15:45:04 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8j1pE025658 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:45:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O8isY15037 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:44:54 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:42:31 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:45:04 -0000 Murata-san has mostly covered this already but since I had my reply mostly written already I'll send it as well. > What's the difference between empty and > notAllowed in this context? The following analogy may help (or it may just confuse things!): if you think of choice as addition and interleave as multiplication, then notAllowed is like 0 and empty is like 1. Whether to use notAllowed or empty in this context depends on whether you are going to use combine="choice" or combine="interleave". If combine="choice" then use notAllowed; if combine="interleave" then use empty. That's because X | notAllowed is equivalent to X for any pattern X; similarly, X & empty is equivalent to X for any pattern X. >>>Individual files usually say something like >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". > > > For attributes or in general? Again, this may be a FAQ, what's the > difference between "choice" and "interleave" in this context? Is > > > > > > the same as > > > > > > No. The combine attribute just says what happens when you have two definitions with the same name. My fingers are getting tired, so I'm going to use the compact syntax here: a &= X a &= Y is the same as a = X & Y Also a = attribute foo { ... } & attribute bar { ... } is equivalent to a = attribute foo { ... }, attribute bar { ... } (because attribute order is not significant). So if you are defining sets of attributes you want to use empty and &=. You would use notAllowed and |= for attributes only if you had a case where you wanted the schema allowed one of a class of attributes (which is rare). James From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 16:25:59 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O9Pw2M031402 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:25:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O9Q8mr006976 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O9Q7jC006973; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> Message-ID: <863cemsfkg.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:59 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 02:26:07 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:59 -0000 James Clark writes: > Murata-san has mostly covered this already but since I had my reply > mostly written already I'll send it as well. > > > What's the difference between empty and > > notAllowed in this context? > > The following analogy may help (or it may just confuse things!): if > you think of choice as addition and interleave as multiplication, then > notAllowed is like 0 and empty is like 1. > > Whether to use notAllowed or empty in this context depends on whether > you are going to use combine="choice" or combine="interleave". If > combine="choice" then use notAllowed; if combine="interleave" then use > empty. That's because X | notAllowed is equivalent to X for any > pattern X; similarly, X & empty is equivalent to X for any pattern X. OK, it all makes sense now. Conjunction for universal qualifiers, disjunction for existential? Ari. From chengchangwu@yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 23:42:27 2003 Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8OGgRT1097366 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:42:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from h42-210-66-25.seed.net.tw (HELO magic) (chengchangwu@210.66.25.42 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2003 16:42:21 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> From: "Cheng-Chang Wu" To: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:39:33 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:42:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc = complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? Cheng-Chang Wu ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm using xsltproc to split = spectest.xml in the=20 test suite. Xsltproc complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find = this=20 file?
 
Cheng-Chang = Wu
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0-- From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Sep 25 00:05:32 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OH5VvD001428 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:05:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1657225072E; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:01:44 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:02:38 +0100 To: "Cheng-Chang Wu" , From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl In-Reply-To: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:05:33 -0000 At 00:39 25/09/2003 +0800, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: >I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc >complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? Suggest trying on the xsltproc mailing list? Or one of Daniel's source files? HTH DaveP From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Sep 25 00:05:34 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OH5Xhf001421 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:05:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1644F25F49B for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:59:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924175952.00b17598@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:00:25 +0100 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] .... And welcome X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:05:34 -0000 Test message. regards DaveP From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Thu Sep 25 01:49:42 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OIngin018616 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:49:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OInp9c010139 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:49:51 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OInKYm026472 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:49:36 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:45:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:45:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:49:42 -0000 I just got a Sharp's Linux-based PDA, the Zaurus SL5500, and thought it would be fun to get jing running on it. I got a NoClassDefFoundError because it couldn't find org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler. I believe that when I run this on a Windows machine, jing is finding these classes right in the 1.4 jvm, but the Zaurus jvm (the Jeode "evm") doesn't have that. I addedxml-apis.jar from xerces, which has the org.xml.sax classes and isn't very big, but it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? thanks, Bob From simonstl@simonstl.com Thu Sep 25 02:19:25 2003 Received: from serrano.hesketh.net (mail.hesketh.net [216.27.21.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJJPgD023514 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:19:25 +0700 (ICT) X-Received-From: simonstl@simonstl.com X-Delivered-To: X-Originating-IP: [24.58.125.32] Received: from 192.168.124.11 (syr-24-58-125-32.twcny.rr.com [24.58.125.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by serrano.hesketh.net (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OJJ79e024774 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:19:09 -0400 X-Spam-Filter: check_local@serrano.hesketh.net by digitalanswers.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:19:13 -0400 From: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 2.0 (Blindsider) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:19:26 -0000 bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com (DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)) writes: >I just got a Sharp's Linux-based PDA, the Zaurus SL5500, and thought >it would be fun to get jing running on it. I got a >NoClassDefFoundError because it couldn't find >org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler. I believe that when I run this on a Windows >machine, jing is finding these classes right in the 1.4 jvm, but the >Zaurus jvm (the Jeode "evm") doesn't have that. I addedxml-apis.jar >from xerces, which has the org.xml.sax classes and isn't very big, but >it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to >avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to >take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for >a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? You might try: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29449 Which comes right off of: http://www.saxproject.org/ I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Sep 25 02:58:50 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJwkcC029982 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:58:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OJuUs0011718 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:30 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8OJuRhn011717 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:27 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? In-Reply-To: To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:27 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:58:51 -0000 > >it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to > >avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to > >take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for > >a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? > > You might try: > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29449 > > Which comes right off of: > http://www.saxproject.org/ > > I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. It does not have Xerces dependencies but it does include a SAX2 parser. A parser is still required; either XP by James Clark (and org.xml.sax.parser property defined appropriately) should work, or Aelfred2 from gnu jaxp. Both are small. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk Thu Sep 25 04:58:25 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OLwO8Z049189 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:58:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJpQmr009188 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8OJoxGY009183; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <86y8wft83x.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <20030924115316.GC12899@mercury.ccil.org> From: ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <20030924115316.GC12899@mercury.ccil.org> Message-ID: <86d6dqq82k.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [xml-dev] A RELAX NG question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 12:50:59 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:00 -0000 This thread has moved to the new relaxng-user list. John Cowan writes: > K. Ari Krupnikov scripsit: > > > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > > elements. The master file s the individual ones. > > Do you have them separated out merely for ease of maintenance, or do > you anticipate using different contents for the individual files? Yes. I tangle my RNGs from other markup, if you are curious, take a look at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/stng/STnG/literate/ > > Question 1: is this a good way of > > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? > > The obvious alternative would be to avoid the machinery of "define" > combination, and simply use externalRef to bring in the element patterns > directly. This is somewhat more streamlined. Won't work, I don't think. Any of the elements' CM may need to say "any element of class foo here," without enumerating members of the foo class by name or filename -- it can't because it doesn't know about them. It knows about classes because they are enumerated in the master file. > > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > > XSD does (thought inheritance). > > I don't see that it's any better or worse to have to ref common > subpatterns than to have to specify a common base type. I want to specify both in one declaration. It's not an accidental coincidence that all members of a class have common attributes, it's part of the meaning of being a part of that class. I was wondering if there was a way to capture that in RELAX NG. Ari. From veillard@redhat.com Thu Sep 25 05:11:19 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OMBJZL051291 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:11:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8OMBGs02246; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:16 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl Message-ID: <20030924181116.F21529@redhat.com> References: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk>; from dpawson@nildram.co.uk on Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:02:38PM +0100 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:11:20 -0000 On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:02:38PM +0100, Dave Pawson wrote: > At 00:39 25/09/2003 +0800, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > >I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc > >complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? > > Suggest trying on the xsltproc mailing list? > Or one of Daniel's source files? Yeah, I'm not sure either how it related to Relax-NG (formatting the XML spec file ?). I don't have prep.xsl anywhere, I doublt it's directly related to xsltproc. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Sep 25 02:41:11 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJfBW0027244 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:41:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19753; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? Message-ID: <20030924193943.GB28066@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:59:30 +0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:41:12 -0000 Simon St.Laurent scripsit: > Which comes right off of: > http://www.saxproject.org/ > > I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. Well, that provides the SAX interfaces and helper classes, which are not present in JVMs before 1.4. But then you need an actual *parser*, of which the smallest I know of is Aelfred2. -- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Sep 25 06:09:58 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8ON9s7j061281 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:09:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8ON7bs0018304 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8ON7bUE018303 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309242307.h8ON7bUE018303@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] API? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:09:58 -0000 Hi, I am trying to use relaxng to analyze markup's syntax. Is there a public way to traverse a loaded grammar? I've looked at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit. Is it where I should start from? David From jjc@jclark.com Thu Sep 25 07:18:56 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8P0IrV5071615 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:18:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8P0IlY19925 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:18:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7233B0.5030705@jclark.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:15:44 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? References: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:18:56 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > It does not have Xerces dependencies but it does include a SAX2 parser. A parser > is still required; either XP by James Clark (and org.xml.sax.parser property > defined appropriately) should work, or Aelfred2 from gnu jaxp. Both are > small. XP isn't maintained and doesn't support SAX2. IIRC, the GNU jaxp parser does not fully implement SAX2 (in that it doesn't allow ContentHandler to be set during a parse), which makes it not work with Jing. I would recommend Crimson (available from Apache) as a small and conformant parser that works with Jing. James From catcode@catcode.com Sat Sep 27 05:40:00 2003 Received: from tengu.host4u.net (tengu.host4u.net [209.150.128.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8QMe0CP097545 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 05:40:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (catcode@localhost) by tengu.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8QMchp09433 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:38:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:38:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. David Eisenberg" X-X-Sender: catcode@tengu.host4u.net To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:40:01 -0000 I'm teaching a beginning XML course at a local community college, and long since decided to teach Relax NG instead of XML Schema (I tell the students, "I don't want your heads to explode.") I was teaching RNG before the compact syntax came on the scene, but this semester some students have expressed interest in it. Over the past two days, I wrote a second version of the lecture notes (at http://catcode.com/cit041x) to cover compact syntax. [And this is my first use of it as well.] My questions: 1) Should instructors emphasize the XML syntax or the compact syntax? The XML syntax _is_ the official version, and it's the one used by W3C for SVG, but compact is, well, more compact. 2) If you look at the lecture notes, you'll see that my indenting style is remarkably schizoid - I was developing my own personal style as I wrote the notes. Are there any "Official Relax NG Compact Syntax Indenting Guidelines"? -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ From jjc@jclark.com Sat Sep 27 14:20:24 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8R7KCmH060647 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:20:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8R7JvY03655 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:19:58 +0700 Message-ID: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:17:29 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:20:25 -0000 J. David Eisenberg wrote: > 1) Should instructors emphasize the XML syntax or the compact syntax? The > XML syntax _is_ the official version, and it's the one used by W3C for > SVG, but compact is, well, more compact. I don't really have an answer. The compact syntax is an OASIS committee spec, so it's official too, although it hasn't started on any ISO standardization path (yet). If you do emphasize the compact syntax, I think it's important to mention the XML syntax and teach how to get the XML syntax from the compact syntax. Apart from that, I would suggest emphasizing whichever you think your audience will understand more easily. > 2) If you look at the lecture notes, you'll see that my indenting style is > remarkably schizoid - I was developing my own personal style as I wrote > the notes. Are there any "Official Relax NG Compact Syntax > Indenting Guidelines"? No. You can use trang to indent your RNC by using RNC input and RNC output. I put a fair amount of effort into making trang's RNC output indent in a reasonable and systematic way. The overall objective is to produce a readable schema. Indentation is just one factor that contributes to readability. I find compact schemas easier to read when they are relatively flat. I prefer schemas that follow the following rules: - always have an implicit top-level grammar - no nested element patterns; move nested element patterns into separate definitions - any closing ( on the same line as the opening ); if this makes the line too long or the expression hard to read, then factor part of the expression out into another definition - closing } either on the same line as the opening { or on a line by itself aligned with the start of the keyword before the opening { James From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sun Sep 28 11:37:13 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8S4bDuL003525 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:37:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A3TIr-0007Dc-00; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:37:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:37:01 -0400 To: James Clark Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG Message-ID: <20030928043701.GB27476@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:53:59 +0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 04:37:15 -0000 James Clark scripsit: > - always have an implicit top-level grammar I agree, except for pedagogical examples. > - no nested element patterns; move nested element patterns into separate > definitions I don't mind nested elements if they are "attribute-like"; simple content models, not significantly reused. > - any closing ( on the same line as the opening ); if this makes the > line too long or the expression hard to read, then factor part of the > expression out into another definition I don't care much about this point. > - closing } either on the same line as the opening { or on a line by > itself aligned with the start of the keyword before the opening { The "One True Brace Style" set by the K&R C book. -- Go, and never darken my towels again! John Cowan --Rufus T. Firefly www.ccil.org/~cowan From jjc@jclark.com Sun Sep 28 14:39:04 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8S7d1Fk023596 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:39:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8S7clL22630 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:38:49 +0700 Message-ID: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:36:02 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl References: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> In-Reply-To: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:39:04 -0000 Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc > complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? I think there's a copy in: http://www.thaiopensource.com/download/gcj/jing-20030619.tar.gz If you look in the test directory, the Makefile uses xsltproc to split up spectest.xml. I'll fix the test suite in the next release to include this. James From chengchangwu@yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 03:34:18 2003 Received: from web41308.mail.yahoo.com (web41308.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.57]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8TKYIgg013703 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:34:18 +0700 (ICT) Message-ID: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [210.66.25.42] by web41308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:11 PDT Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:34:19 -0000 I've found prep.xsl, thanks for the help. My program can still not handle all of the relaxng constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I am using in my project. I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says one can replace the expandable ref element with its definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't grasp this well. Ex. Isn't this a correct relaxng schema? I don't know Java, so I can't find how jing has done it. How can this be simplified with the simplification rules in section 4 of the specification? I havn't done the simplification as the specification says, will this bring me some trouble in the future? Thanks for your great job on RelaxNG, it's much better than any other schema language which I can't comprehend. Cheng-Chang From veillard@redhat.com Tue Sep 30 04:09:22 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8TL9Mch019506 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 04:09:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8TL9Ib22633; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl Message-ID: <20030929170918.T21529@redhat.com> References: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com>; from chengchangwu@yahoo.com on Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:09:22 -0000 On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > I've found prep.xsl, thanks for the help. > > My program can still not handle all of the relaxng > constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I > am using in my project. > > I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref > element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says > one can replace the expandable ref element with its > definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't > grasp this well. Ex. > > > > > > > Isn't this a correct relaxng schema? I don't know The simplest way I could understand the spec was in term of input. Basically the loop is invalid because it consume no input. You can go from the top definition of the test define to the recursive reference without any change in the input. On the other hand is okay because to go from the definition to the reference you had to consume the "bar" element input. Still the best way is to follow the spec description of the semantic but sometimes taking a different approach can help seeing the concept behind the formalism. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Tue Sep 30 08:59:59 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8U1xvAc059938 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8U1xlL02862; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F78E2EB.5010200@jclark.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:56:59 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl References: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:00:01 -0000 Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > My program can still not handle all of the relaxng > constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I > am using in my project. > > I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref > element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says > one can replace the expandable ref element with its > definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't > grasp this well. Typically, an implementation represents each type of pattern by an object. The schema is thus initially a tree of objects. At a convenient point, the implementation typically resolves references: it checks that there's a define for each ref and makes each ref pattern point directly to that define, and each grammar becomes just a reference to its start pattern. At this stage, you have a directed graph of objects. This graph may have cycles (where every cycle passes through a ref pattern). What your implementation has to do is check that every cycle passes through an element pattern. You can do this by having a recursive function with a single depth parameter that walks the graph, recording at each ref node the depth at which it last visited the node, and incrementing the depth when it passes through an element node. See com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.RefPattern.checkRecursion() in Jing. James From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:05:53 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UD5rob043912 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:05:53 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064927148!1162261 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 20876 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 13990 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14529 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:05:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:58 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA03980; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:58 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:05:54 -0000 I had a DTD that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced x = element x { attlist.x, any } attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x any = (element * { attribute * { text }*, any } | text)* which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying with any instance document, say to be definite, I get $ jing id.rng id.xml z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. Am I confused or is Jing? Thanks for any advice, David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 20:25:02 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UDOxRv046749 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:25:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494F0192F77 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:25:04 -0000 Hi David, On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:01, David Carlisle wrote: > I had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > I had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xml > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xmlI had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xml > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > > Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to > validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. > > Am I confused or is Jing? I think you are ;-) ... I have tried to explain that in my book: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/RngNamespaces.html (search for "A couple of traps to avoid"). Basically, what's happening here is the the DTD compatibility feature does emulate even its restrictions :-) ... Hope this helps. Eric -- Freelance consulting and training. http://dyomedea.com/english/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Tom.Gaven@exostar.com Tue Sep 30 20:28:32 2003 Received: from NETMAIL01.exostar.com ([208.47.83.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UDSWXS047231 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:28:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: by NETMAIL02.exostar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:26 -0400 Message-ID: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> From: Tom Gaven To: "'David Carlisle'" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:28:33 -0000 David, 1 x = element x { attlist.x, any } 2 attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? 3 start = x 4 any = 5 (element * { 6 attribute * { text }*, 7 any 8 } 9 | text)* If you desire 'any attribute on element x', then you should probably remove line 2, and delete 'attlist.x,' from line 1. This should get rid of your Jing error, and grant your desire. You may be able to get: validate id attribute against ID rule and grant all other attributes but you'd probably have to use some choice and except..not syntax... that is outside my reach at the moment... :) also, I think trang's conversion of was a bit too loose in that it allowed any attribute as well as any element. Tom -----Original Message----- From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:02 AM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types I had a DTD that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced x = element x { attlist.x, any } attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x any = (element * { attribute * { text }*, any } | text)* which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying with any instance document, say to be definite, I get $ jing id.rng id.xml z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. Am I confused or is Jing? Thanks for any advice, David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:36:44 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UDah3B048447 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:44 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-8.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064928996!1173507 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 21357 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-8.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 27745 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15344; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:36:25 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:02 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301333.OAA04167@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA04167; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:02 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: vdv@dyomedea.com In-reply-to: <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> (message from Eric van der Vlist on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:36:46 -0000 > > Am I confused or is Jing? > I think you are ;-) ... Good. That's easier for me to fix! > all the other definitions of an attribute "id" hosted by an element > "book" must have the same type "ID". Ah. thanks, Hmm I think I'll just declare my id attribute as text or xsd:NCName or something and give up on this xsd:ID business. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:52:09 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UDq9kI051034 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:52:09 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-26.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064929922!1156095 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 25952 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:52:02 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-26.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:52:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31015 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:52:01 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:52:01 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15694; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:51:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA04245; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: Tom.Gaven@exostar.com In-reply-to: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> (message from Tom Gaven on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0400) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:52:11 -0000 > If you desire 'any attribute on element x', then you should probably > remove line 2, and delete 'attlist.x,' from line 1. No I wanted control over the attributes, but to allow any element. Which was the intent of the original DTD However Eric has pointed out that while the _intent_ of that DTD was to allow anything as a child of that DTD (essentially it's an "annotation from some foreign vocabulary wrapper) actually there would be a restriction that any element called x that is included as a result of that ANY had better have an id attribute of type ID, and the relax ng version picks up that constraint as unlike xsd you can't apparently skip a chunk of well formed xml so you have to actually declare the grammar of the contained elments and you end you with text conflicting with xsd:ID. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Sep 30 21:26:49 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEQkNK056927 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:26:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UENqs0051505 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UENqpB051504 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:26:51 -0000 Hi, I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. Where can I look at a schema with it? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 21:38:08 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEc5K0058826 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:38:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C850B19329B for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:38:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:38:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:38:08 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > Where can I look at a schema with it? Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less examples in this domain. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html Eric -- Don't you think all these XML schema languages should work together? http://dsdl.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From veillard@redhat.com Tue Sep 30 21:41:30 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEfUa4059341 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:41:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8UEeLa01736; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:21 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:21 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? Message-ID: <20030930104021.Q21529@redhat.com> References: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net>; from dvd@davidashen.net on Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:52PM +0500 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:41:30 -0000 On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:52PM +0500, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > Where can I look at a schema with it? Isn't the example from chapter 8 of the tutorial "real-life" enough ? http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/tutorial-20011203.html#IDAN1YR Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Sep 30 21:53:56 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UErqDB061305 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:53:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UEoxs0051669 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UEoxR3051668 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? In-Reply-To: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:53:57 -0000 > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > > Where can I look at a schema with it? > > Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > examples in this domain. > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. I am trying to solve a problem for which every construct must be converted into a set of productions and am having difficulty translating interleave into a set of productions in general case. It is possible and easy in general, but complicates my particular algorithm. I am considering dropping interleave and trying to find out what kind of grammars will be beyond the scope. I haven't yet seen one. David From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Sep 30 21:56:11 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEuAW4061692 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:56:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEuKFG014111 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:21 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEu4vT012028 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:05 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:03 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:56:11 -0000 >> I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. >> Where can I look at a schema with it? >Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good >examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take >advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less >examples in this domain. I see it the other way around: to me, ordering matters more in document-oriented applications, but less in data-oriented applications. If a relational table has columns for firstName, lastName, empNum, homePhone, officePhone, hireDate, etc., the ordering of their XML equivalents inside of an element that represents a row of that table really doesn't matter to me, and probably doesn't to an importing application. I'll bet there are plenty of examples there. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 22:02:07 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF1uZE062928 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:02:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF4019374E for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:01:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064934110.5191.86.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:01:50 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:02:10 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:50, David Tolpin wrote: > > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > > > Where can I look at a schema with it? > > > > Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > > examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > > advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > > examples in this domain. > > > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html > > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; There is also an hidden use of "interleave" in each "mixed" template since "mixed" is a shortcut for "interleave" with a "text" pattern. > and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. How can you do this (I mean combining without order) without interleave? > I am trying to solve a problem for which every construct must be converted into a > set of productions and am having difficulty translating interleave into a set > of productions in general case. It is possible and easy in general, but complicates > my particular algorithm. Interleave does complicate the algorithm, that's why it has been kept away from other schema languages, but it gives a flexibility to users which is unique amongst schema languages... > I am considering dropping interleave and trying to find out what kind of grammars > will be beyond the scope. I haven't yet seen one. Again, any mixed content model is in this scope. Eric -- See you in Philadelphia for XML 2003. http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 22:07:55 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF7svT063908 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UF7rxK002453 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM1001NJ8P497@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM100ERH8P3ZS@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:07:52 -0700 From: Kohsuke KAWAGUCHI In-reply-to: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20030930080749.1736.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:07:56 -0000 > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. HTML
is another example. You can have things like ,,<script>,<link>,... in any order, but you can have at most one <title>. Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 22:09:39 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF9b26064311 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:09:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D3A1938D4 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <FEF4858E8AB32D4EAC2CF2A7D85386EBE52C84@lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com> References: <FEF4858E8AB32D4EAC2CF2A7D85386EBE52C84@lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064934575.5191.95.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:35 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:09:39 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:56, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > >> I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of > 'interleave'. > >> Where can I look at a schema with it? > > >Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > >examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > >advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > >examples in this domain. > > I see it the other way around: to me, ordering matters more in > document-oriented applications, but less in data-oriented applications. If a > relational table has columns for firstName, lastName, empNum, homePhone, > officePhone, hireDate, etc., the ordering of their XML equivalents inside of > an element that represents a row of that table really doesn't matter to me, > and probably doesn't to an importing application. I'll bet there are plenty > of examples there. I thin that there is a misunderstanding here and that many users think that "unordered" models are models where the order doesn't matter which is very reductive. What we often call unordered models are models where the schema doesn't enforce the order and that doesn't mean that the order shouldn't be considered significant for the application, on the contrary, the fact that two elements may appear in any order may bring additional information. For instance, if I write: person = element last-name{text}, element first-name{text} The fact that I enforce a specific order means that I don't know if the person prefers to get his/her first name before his/her last name, while if I write: person = element last-name{text}& element first-name{text}, I can write in my instance document either <last-name>DuCharme</last-name><first-name>Bob</first-name> or <first-name>Bob</first-name><last-name>DuCharme</last-name> In this case, this "lack" of order is an information by itself! So, I think that in fact we all agree here :-) ... Eric > Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ > snee.com> "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy > spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user -- If you have a XML document, you have its schema. http://examplotron.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 22:24:54 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UFOs9v067164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:24:54 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-28.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064935491!1171272 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 25027 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-28.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 15:24:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18158 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17779 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:24:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:36 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id QAA04797; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:36 +0100 From: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> (message from David Carlisle on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:55 -0000 Just to tie up this thread, unless anyone has any better suggestions I'm planning to use this default namespace om = "http://www.openmath.org/OpenMath" start = y x = element x { attlist.om, (om|notom)* } y = element y { attlist.om, (x | y)* } attlist.om = attribute id { xsd:ID }? om = (x|y) notom = (element * - om:* { attribute * { text }*, notom } | text) Which I believe says that both OpenMath elements take an attribute id of type ID and the content of x can be any non OpenMath element or valid OpenMath. Which is of course what I really wanted to say all along:-) David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Sep 30 23:11:24 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UGBIOU075265 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:11:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27193; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:15 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types Message-ID: <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:11:24 -0000 David Carlisle scripsit: > > I had a DTD > > <!ELEMENT x ANY> > <!ATTLIST x id ID #IMPLIED> > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > Am I confused or is Jing? The fault is with Trang, and yet it's hard to see how it could do any better without taking an entirely different approach. The semantics of ANY in a DTD are essentially (#PCDATA|FOO|BAR|BAZ|...)*, where FOO, BAR, BAZ, ... are the declared elements in the DTD. It does not mean that "any XML" is permissible here, but that's how Trang translates it. Consequently, the declaration of the element named "x" as having an "id" attribute of type ID conflicts with the implicit declaration of "x" (as part of the element wildcard) as having an "id" attribute (as part of the attribute wildcard) of type text. Normally, this wouldn't matter, but the semantics of type ID are global, and RNG requires that ID-declared attributes be consistent throughout the document. Here is an RNC schema that should do what you want: x = element x { attlist.x & not-x* & x* & text} attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x not-x = element (* - x) { attribute * {text}* & not-x* & x* & text } -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him. From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 22:05:12 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF5BSl063459 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:05:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UF55kv021084 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM1001MF8KE98@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM100EZL8KEX7@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:05:03 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi <Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM> In-reply-to: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20030930080215.1732.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:30:40 +0700 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:05:12 -0000 > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. HTML <header> is another example. You can have things like <meta>,<title>,<script>,<link>,... in any order, but you can have at most one <title>. Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 1 00:09:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UH9IMl085578 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:09:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UH6Os0052280 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UH6O2x052279 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200309301706.h8UH6O2x052279@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? In-Reply-To: <20030930080215.1732.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:25 -0000 > > Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, > I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be > incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. > No, I am trying to use jing (actually, one modified for use with rng2srng just because relaxng/impl is good for walking the graph and is not public in the original jing) as a toolkit to parse schemas to build LR parser on top of a markup for a language where elements of original markup are symbols (and elements with no content or text-only content are terminals). I am therefore trying to develop algorithm that approximates a schema with a context-free grammar as close as possible. I realize that a new method can be developed to build an LR parsing algorithm for a language derived from the full RNG but this is beyond my domain of interest now. All markup schemas I looked at can either be trivially rewritten without interleave or use interleave with exactly one element in one of two branches. These cases require a much simpler implementation than the general case. I am now (with the examples brought) even more convinced that interleave as a language tool is a solution looking for a problem; it lets users define languages which are great for validation by RNG but significantly complicate certain other operations beyond the scope of validation. I will be trying to find a solution, but not too hard. Loosening the grammar just a bit will solve my problem and give me a good tool. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 1 01:01:43 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UI1dE9094551 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:01:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UHwjs0052582 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UHwj2d052581 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:01:44 -0000 It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Yet, in my opinion, this application should not be the only one. It is not even the most important one. There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages than validation; Relax NG as it currently specified and implemented, does not make those other things easier. Nor any other schema, to say the truth. David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed Oct 1 01:18:26 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UIIJuq097121 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:18:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28587; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:14:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:14:01 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng Message-ID: <20030930181401.GI19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:18:26 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages > than validation; Give us your list of things, then. -- Business before pleasure, if not too bloomering long before. --Nicholas van Rijn John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan http://www.reutershealth.com From jjc@jclark.com Wed Oct 1 08:07:57 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9117sWE061096 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9117lL10226 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:07:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7A283A.9010802@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 08:04:58 +0700 From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng References: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 01:07:59 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, > is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Not exactly. I see the role of a schema language as being to define the interface between components that communicate using XML. Validation is one aspect of this: it's runtime checking of compliance with the interface. I think it's important that when you have an interface you can mechanically enforce it. But more important than this is just the fact of having an interface that is rigorously defined, yet human understandable. If all you have to define your interface is English prose, it is very likely that different people will interpret it slightly differently. If all you have is XSD, then you had better have a tool like XMLSpy if you want people to understand it. For a schema language to work well in this role, as an XML processing component interface definition language, it's vital that the schema language doesn't do anything other than define a set of XML documents. If a schema does other random stuff useful for processing (like tell you how to turn the XML document into Java objects or add default attributes), then it's making the components that use it as an interface unnecessarily tightly coupled. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I see a growing realization of this point in the move towards service-oriented architectures and "typeless" web services. James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Oct 1 14:32:02 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h917VxPb005519 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:32:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h917VoL11867 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:31:50 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7A823A.2080603@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:28:58 +0700 From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:32:02 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > The fault is with Trang, and yet it's hard to see how it could do any > better without taking an entirely different approach. > > The semantics of ANY in a DTD are essentially (#PCDATA|FOO|BAR|BAZ|...)*, > where FOO, BAR, BAZ, ... are the declared elements in the DTD. It does > not mean that "any XML" is permissible here, but that's how Trang > translates it. Right. But DTDs don't have real wildcards, so if a DTD author wants a real wildcard, the best they can do is approximate it with ANY. Most of the uses of ANY I've come across are cases of this, rather than people actually wanting the DTD semantics. In any case, if you want exactly the DTD semantics, trang can give it to you. See the -i strict-any option: http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/trang-manual.html#dtd-input James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Oct 1 14:39:21 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h917dJvW006258 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:39:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h917d1L11902; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:39:01 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7A83E9.4030302@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:36:09 +0700 From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:39:21 -0000 David Carlisle wrote: > Just to tie up this thread, unless anyone has any better suggestions I'm > planning to use this > > default namespace om = "http://www.openmath.org/OpenMath" > > start = y > > x = element x { attlist.om, (om|notom)* } > > y = element y { attlist.om, (x | y)* } > > attlist.om = attribute id { xsd:ID }? > > > om = (x|y) > > notom = > (element * - om:* { > attribute * { text }*, > notom > } > | text) > > > > Which I believe says that both OpenMath elements take an attribute id of > type ID and the content of x can be any non OpenMath element > or valid OpenMath. Which is of course what I really wanted to say all > along:-) Don't you want non-OpenMath elements to be able to contain valid OpenMath elements as descendants? In any case, don't you want a * on the reference to notom in the definition of notom? James From davidc@nag.co.uk Wed Oct 1 16:39:24 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h919dNS6019079 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:39:24 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1065001003!1195472 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 27519 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2003 09:36:43 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-11.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2003 09:36:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 27360 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2003 09:36:42 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 1 Oct 2003 09:36:42 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03827; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:36:35 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:34:26 +0100 Message-Id: <200310010934.KAA10830@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id KAA10830; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:34:26 +0100 From: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> To: jjc@jclark.com In-reply-to: <3F7A83E9.4030302@jclark.com> (message from James Clark on Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:36:09 +0700) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> <3F7A83E9.4030302@jclark.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:39:24 -0000 > Don't you want non-OpenMath elements to be able to contain valid > OpenMath elements as descendants? Yes thanks, I noticed that. I'm not sure that I do, to be honest. However this is more a language design issue rather than a relax question. It's now clear that whatever I decide here I can express it in relax, so I'm happy. > In any case, don't you want a * on > the reference to notom in the definition of notom? er, yes:-) David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Oct 1 20:13:39 2003 Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h91DDYsf045185 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:13:39 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (g037046.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [211.132.37.46]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40710AFF6; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:13:32 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:10:49 +0900 From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" <EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng In-Reply-To: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> Message-Id: <20031001220300.472D.EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:13:44 -0000 On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> wrote: > It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, > is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Yet, in > my opinion, this application should not be the only one. It is not even > the most important one. In parallel to the development of RELAX NG, two data-binding tools, namely Relaxer and RelaxNGCC were implemented. Moreover, the designer (Hosoya-san) of XDuce (a functional programming language equipped with schemas as types) also contributed to the design of RELAX NG. We also paid a lot of attention to boolean closure of schemas. > There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages > than validation; Relax NG as it currently specified and implemented, does not > make those other things easier. Relaxer, RelaxNGCC, and XDuce are completely different technologies. I can also imagine some other data binding technologies or programming languages for RELAX NG. If we incorporate mechanisms that are convenient for one particular style of data binding, we run the risk of blocking other styles. Cheers, -- MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) <EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp> From vdv@dyomedea.com Mon Oct 6 21:53:27 2003 Received: from dell (evlist.net1.nerim.net [213.41.149.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h96ErQVj034894 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:53:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from dyomedea.com (unknown [10.0.1.21]) by dell (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016C923787 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:53:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F8181DC.2010106@dyomedea.com> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:53:16 +0200 From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030930 Debian/1.4-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Ann: New version of my book "RELAX NG" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:53:28 -0000 I am happy to announce a new version of my book "RELAX NG" to be published in December by O'Reilly. This version is available at the usual URL [1]: It is now pre-production quality and should be close to the final version which will be available in print [2] and on line both commercially through Safari [3] and on my site [1] (and maybe others) under a GFDL [4] licence. Although the book shouldn't be drastically updated at this point, you are still welcome to submit your feedback using our annotation system. Compared to the version which was previously on line, this new one has gone through a complete copy editing and should be, thanks to Simon St.Laurent and Tracey Cranston, in much better (American) English and much easier to read. The layout of the pages is now generated from DocBook using an adaptation of the LDP customisation of Norm Walsh's XSL stylesheets. This results in a bunch of small pages in a format now familiar to many users and programmers and this should also improve the readability of the web version. I hope you'll enjoy reading it as much as I have enjoyed writing it! Eric [1] http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ [2] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596004214/ [3] http://safari.oreilly.com/ [4] http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html [5] http://annotations.xmlschemata.org/nph-med.cgi/http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ -- Tired to type XML tags? http://wikiml.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From jricker@izarinc.com Fri Oct 3 19:32:43 2003 Received: from smtp-1.njaccess.com (smtp-1.njaccess.com [207.113.27.245]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h93CWgHx071882 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:32:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from njaccess.com (mail.njaccess.com [207.113.27.2]) by smtp-1.njaccess.com (NJAccess Postfix SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E70248DDE for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.127] [64.8.226.4] by njaccess.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AFC19B20104; Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:46:57 -0400 From: Jeffrey Ricker <jricker@izarinc.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1065183916.4631.6.camel@estonia.izartech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:09:18 +0700 Subject: [relaxng-user] must externalRef point to a grammar? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:32:44 -0000 X-Original-Date: 03 Oct 2003 08:25:17 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:32:44 -0000 I'm sorry if I missed this in the documentation. I notice in the spec that <include> must point to a file that has a <grammar> element as root. Is the same true for <externalRef> or can I have that file be a simple <element> declaration as its root? From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Oct 7 08:12:21 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h971CKlF037672 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 08:12:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A6gOe-0001gE-00; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 21:12:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:12:16 -0400 To: Jeffrey Ricker <jricker@izarinc.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] must externalRef point to a grammar? Message-ID: <20031007011216.GD19140@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1065183916.4631.6.camel@estonia.izartech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1065183916.4631.6.camel@estonia.izartech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:12:21 -0000 Jeffrey Ricker scripsit: > I'm sorry if I missed this in the documentation. I notice in the spec > that <include> must point to a file that has a <grammar> element as > root. Is the same true for <externalRef> or can I have that file be a > simple <element> declaration as its root? Sure. externalRef can point at any pattern whatsoever. It's just a straight inclusion. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com Monday we watch-a Firefly's house, but he no come out. He wasn't home. Tuesday we go to the ball game, but he fool us. He no show up. Wednesday he go to the ball game, and we fool him. We no show up. Thursday was a double-header. Nobody show up. Friday it rained all day. There was no ball game, so we stayed home and we listened to it on-a the radio. --Chicolini From ts@ts-cyberia.net Thu Oct 23 19:27:42 2003 Received: from thebe.your-site.com (thebe.your-site.com [140.186.45.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NCRgcS068907 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:27:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ts-cyberia.net (eaoska096105.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [218.226.11.105]) by thebe.your-site.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C1E244EC3 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:27:34 +0900 From: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en, he, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:27:43 -0000 I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this possible. Tsuguya Sasaki, PhD http://www.ts-cyberia.net/ http://www.jewish-languages.org/ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Thu Oct 23 19:43:14 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NChDC5070856 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:43:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ACenz-0003gc-00; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:43:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:43:07 -0400 To: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:43:14 -0000 Tsuguya Sasaki scripsit: > I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I > understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema > with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this > possible. Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is really preferred. -- Income tax, if I may be pardoned for saying so, John Cowan is a tax on income. --Lord Macnaghten (1901) jcowan@reutershealth.com From robin.berjon@expway.fr Thu Oct 23 19:51:48 2003 Received: from mwinf0401.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.27]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NCpmvI071992 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:51:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from expway.fr (APastourelles-107-2-4-214.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.9.214]) by mwinf0401.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7A7C4580011D; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:51:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F97CE63.3070906@expway.fr> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:49:39 +0200 From: Robin Berjon <robin.berjon@expway.fr> Organization: Expway User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:51:49 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > Tsuguya Sasaki scripsit: >>I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I >>understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema >>with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this >>possible. > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > really preferred. That's very true, but at the same time, while I'm not at all a big fan of xsi:schemaLocation, DOCTYPE, or other related things such as xml-stylesheet, there are cases in which one just needs a simple and lightweight way of associating a schema with an instance. And RDDL might be a bit too indirect. So why not a simple way for simple cases, and let complex cases be dealt in other ways? Note that a mechanism comparable to xml-stylesheet could cover the case you describe. -- Robin Berjon <robin.berjon@expway.fr> Research Scientist, Expway http://expway.com/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488 From ts@ts-cyberia.net Thu Oct 23 19:55:36 2003 Received: from thebe.your-site.com (thebe.your-site.com [140.186.45.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NCtZH3072567 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:55:35 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ts-cyberia.net (eaoska096105.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [218.226.11.105]) by thebe.your-site.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFB8245850 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:55:27 +0900 From: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en, he, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:55:37 -0000 John Cowan wrote: >> I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I >> understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema >> with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this >> possible. > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > really preferred. Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I'm familiar with this "theory", but practically speaking, you may nevertheless want to associate RELAX NG with instance documents for, e.g., guided editing with an XML editor; there seem to be other circumstances where the existence of a mechanism for such an association is useful. Tsuguya Sasaki PS: I'm a linguist, so I apologize in advance for some (or all) of my remarks that may not be to the point at all. From veillard@redhat.com Thu Oct 23 20:43:30 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NDhUGN079925 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:43:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h9NDhSq12743; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:43:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:43:27 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> To: Tsuguya Sasaki <ts@ts-cyberia.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net>; from ts@ts-cyberia.net on Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 09:55:27PM +0900 Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:43:32 -0000 On Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 09:55:27PM +0900, Tsuguya Sasaki wrote: > John Cowan wrote: > > >> I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I > >> understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema > >> with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this > >> possible. > > > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > > really preferred. > > Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I'm familiar with this > "theory", but practically speaking, you may nevertheless want to > associate RELAX NG with instance documents for, e.g., guided editing > with an XML editor; there seem to be other circumstances where the > existence of a mechanism for such an association is useful. I have got the following Request For Enhancement http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125266 the idea growing up seems to have the association done at the toolkit level instead of having it into the instance. IMHO it's quite cleaner, the author can't really know what are the acceptance rule a given instance will go though, but on the other hand at a tool level automating the association between the instance and the schemas simplifies things a lot with the associated results (relibility, cost of maintainance, etc ...) Ideally having a predefined (standardized) vocabulary to match the instances to Schemas (or processing rules but this is yet another can of worms) would be the best way to attack this problem. It's unclear to me whether the approach taken by nXML can really be expanded to other frameworks, I need to read and digest the proposal first, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es Thu Oct 23 21:05:32 2003 Received: from unica.udc.es (unica.udc.es [193.147.41.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NE5VB4083864 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:05:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from unica.udc.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h9NGt2hS002688 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:55:02 -0100 (GMT) Received: from necora.cdf.udc.es (necora.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.147.41.4]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h9NGt2PQ002685 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:55:02 -0100 (GMT) Received: from eps213 (eps213.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.144.52.213]) by necora.cdf.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.11.3) with SMTP id h9NH0gIW012464 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:00:43 -0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <00b701c3996e$d48368e0$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Castro?= <iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es> To: <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:06:13 +0200 Organization: UDC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang problems with interleave X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:05:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I haven't found any Trang mailing list so decided to I post my problem = here. I'm using Trang (version 20030619) to translate my Relax NG schemas to = XML Schemas. I've found that <interleave> element translation works fine if = the patterns inside are elements, but fails if the patterns use definitions. = =20 This is an example: --------------------- input file: test.rnc ------------------------ start =3D element dummy { empty } # Trang works OK interleave_without_definitions =3D element test { element e1 { empty } & element e2 { empty }? } # Trang fails def1 =3D element e1 { empty } def2 =3D element e2 { empty } interleave_with_definitions =3D element test { def1 & def2 ? } --------------------- output file: test.xsd ------------------------ <?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"UTF-8"?> <xs:schema xmlns:xs=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" elementFormDefault=3D"qualified"> <xs:element name=3D"dummy"> <xs:complexType/> </xs:element> <!-- Trang works OK --> <xs:group name=3D"interleave_without_definitions"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element name=3D"test"> <xs:complexType> <xs:all> <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/> <xs:element minOccurs=3D"0" ref=3D"e2"/> </xs:all> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:sequence> </xs:group> <xs:element name=3D"e1"> <xs:complexType/> </xs:element> <xs:element name=3D"e2"> <xs:complexType/> </xs:element> <!-- Trang fails --> <xs:group name=3D"interleave_with_definitions"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element name=3D"test"> <xs:complexType> <xs:choice minOccurs=3D"0" maxOccurs=3D"unbounded"> <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/> <xs:element ref=3D"e2"/> </xs:choice> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:sequence> </xs:group> </xs:schema> As you can see, "interleave_without_definitions" uses xs:all (fine) but "interleave_with_definitions" uses "xs:choice" (wrong).=20 I need definitions in my schema. Is there any workarround to this problem ? Thanks in advance, Manuel ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#d4d0c8> <DIV><SPAN class=3Dq0>Hello,<BR><BR>I haven't found any Trang mailing = list so=20 decided to I post my problem here.<BR><BR>I'm using Trang (version = 20030619) to=20 translate my Relax NG schemas to XML<BR>Schemas. I've found that=20 <interleave> element translation works fine if the<BR>patterns = inside are=20 elements, but fails if the patterns use definitions.  <BR><BR>This = is an=20 example:<BR><BR>--------------------- input file: test.rnc=20 ------------------------<BR><BR>start =3D element dummy { empty = }<BR><BR># Trang=20 works OK<BR>interleave_without_definitions =3D<BR>  element test = {<BR> =20   element e1 { empty }<BR>    & element e2 { empty=20 }?<BR>  }<BR><BR># Trang fails<BR>def1 =3D element e1 { empty = }<BR>def2 =3D=20 element e2 { empty }<BR>interleave_with_definitions =3D<BR> element = test {=20 def1  & def2 ? }<BR><BR>--------------------- output file: = test.xsd=20 ------------------------<BR><BR><?xml version=3D"1.0"=20 encoding=3D"UTF-8"?><BR><xs:schema xmlns:xs=3D"<A class=3D0=20 href=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"><FONT=20 color=3D#000000>http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema</FONT></A>"<BR> =20 elementFormDefault=3D"qualified"> <xs:element = name=3D"dummy"><BR> =20   <xs:complexType/><BR>  </xs:element><BR>  = <!--=20 Trang works OK --><BR>  <xs:group=20 name=3D"interleave_without_definitions"><BR>   =20 <xs:sequence><BR>      <xs:element=20 name=3D"test"><BR>        = <xs:complexType><BR> =20         <xs:all><BR>      =    =20   <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/><BR>        =    =20 <xs:element minOccurs=3D"0" ref=3D"e2"/><BR>      =    =20 </xs:all><BR>        = </xs:complexType><BR> =20     </xs:element><BR>   =20 </xs:sequence><BR>  </xs:group><BR>  = <xs:element=20 name=3D"e1"><BR>    <xs:complexType/><BR> =20 </xs:element><BR>  <xs:element name=3D"e2"><BR>  =  =20 <xs:complexType/><BR>  </xs:element><BR>  <!-- = Trang=20 fails --><BR>  <xs:group=20 name=3D"interleave_with_definitions"><BR>   =20 <xs:sequence><BR>      <xs:element=20 name=3D"test"><BR>        = <xs:complexType><BR> =20         <xs:choice minOccurs=3D"0"=20 maxOccurs=3D"unbounded"><BR>            = <xs:element ref=3D"e1"/><BR>          =  =20 <xs:element ref=3D"e2"/><BR>         =20 </xs:choice><BR>       =20 </xs:complexType><BR>      = </xs:element><BR> =20   </xs:sequence><BR> =20 </xs:group><BR></xs:schema><BR><BR>As you can see,=20 "interleave_without_definitions" uses xs:all (fine)=20 but<BR>"interleave_with_definitions" uses "xs:choice" (wrong).=20 <BR><BR>I need definitions in my schema.<BR>Is there any = workarround to=20 this problem ?<BR><BR>Thanks in=20 advance,<BR>Manuel<BR></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C3997F.94ED93C0-- From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Oct 23 21:43:06 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NEh2vl090107 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:43:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9NEeEgv062430 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:40:14 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9NEeE4q062429 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:40:14 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:40:14 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:43:07 -0000 > Tsuguya Sasaki scripsit: > > I'm a relatively new "convert" (from XML Schema) to RELAX NG. I > > understand that there is no standard way to associate a RELAX NG schema > > with a document. I'm just wondering if there is any plan to make this > > possible. > > Not really. The theory is that you might want to validate a document > against different schemas for different purposes, and no one schema is > really preferred. > Sounds like a mantra. In simpler words, the people who designed the technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. If I pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I formally express it in a standard way? Is there something more platform independent and XML-ish than #!/bin/sh java -jar jing.jar schema.rng document.xml ? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Fri Oct 24 00:56:21 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9NHuL8U023264 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:56:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04706; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:51:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:51:22 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:56:21 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > In simpler words, the people who designed the > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. > If I > pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I > formally express it in a standard way? How about this: <?xml version="1.0"?> <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:rngspec="http://www.relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html#/"> <rdf:Description about="http://davidashen.net/document.xml"> <rngspec:validity rdf:resource="http://www.davidashen.net/schema.rng"/> </rdf:Description> </rdf:RDF> -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 08:34:55 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O1YrGl087110 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:34:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9O1YRY18177; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:34:27 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:35:01 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 08:31:09 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:35:01 -0000 On Thu, 2003-10-23 at 20:43, Daniel Veillard wrote: > the idea growing up seems to have the association done at the toolkit > level instead of having it into the instance. Right. I believe it's quite wrong for a schema language to dictate that a document type designer must use an element name or an attribute for a particular purpose (as W3C XML Schema does with xsi:type or xsi:schemaLocation). The document type designer should be the one who decides what element names and attribute names to use, and the schema language should allow the document type designer to write a schema to reflect their decision. I think this extends to any association mechanism and it also applies to processing instruction target names. This does not prevent your having something in the instance that influences the association but it does imply that the ultimate authority must be outside the instance. If, for example, you want a processing instruction in the instance to point to the schema, then there must be something outside the instance that says that this is what you want and that specifies the processing instruction target to use for this purpose. Once you decide that you want something outside the instance to control the association, I think it's an obvious decision to express that something in XML and it's highly desirable to make it application-independent. > It's unclear > to me whether the approach taken by nXML can really be expanded to other > frameworks If it can't, then it's a bug. It was a fundamental design goal to express the association rules in an application-independent way. Eventually, I hope to implement this for Jing as well. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 08:54:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O1sbLN089680 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:54:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9O1oKY18276; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:50:20 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:54:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 08:47:04 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:54:40 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 00:51, John Cowan wrote: > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > In simpler words, the people who designed the > > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. > > It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML > processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly > general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. I would divide the problem of specifying appropriate XML processing for a document into: (a) how to specify the process to be performed (b) how to locate the appropriate processing specification I see (b) as a special case of the problem of how to specify rules that, given an XML document, find a related resource. This is problem that the XML vocabulary that I've designed for nXML mode is intended to solve. It's not specific to RELAX NG or for that matter to schemas. You could use the same vocabulary to describe how to find the XSLT stylesheet to use to display an XML document. > > If I > > pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I > > formally express it in a standard way? > > How about this: > > <?xml version="1.0"?> > <rdf:RDF > xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" > xmlns:rngspec="http://www.relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html#/"> > <rdf:Description about="http://davidashen.net/document.xml"> > <rngspec:validity rdf:resource="http://www.davidashen.net/schema.rng"/> > </rdf:Description> > </rdf:RDF> Although it's important to be able to individually specify the schema to use for a particular document, it's also convenient to be able to specify rules that apply to classes of document. For example, on my system I have a rule that says when the namespace URI of the document element is http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0, then the schema is /home/jjc/schema/relaxng.rnc. James From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Oct 24 13:10:01 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O69wEN021207 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:10:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9O67Fgv068329 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:07:15 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9O67ENu068328 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:07:14 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:07:14 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:10:05 -0000 > On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 00:51, John Cowan wrote: > > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > > > In simpler words, the people who designed the > > > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > > > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. > > > > It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML > > processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly > > general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. > > I would divide the problem of specifying appropriate XML processing for > a document into: > > (a) how to specify the process to be performed > > (b) how to locate the appropriate processing specification > > I see (b) as a special case of the problem of how to specify rules that, > given an XML document, find a related resource. This is problem that > the XML vocabulary that I've designed for nXML mode is intended to > solve. It's not specific to RELAX NG or for that matter to schemas. > You could use the same vocabulary to describe how to find the XSLT > stylesheet to use to display an XML document. The approach designed for nXML is good. However, it has traps. I agree that the approach can be convenietly used to assist the user in choosing the right associations (a schema, a stylesheet, etc). But after the association is chosen, it should be somehow attached to the document, at least, in some cases. It is my decision that document X uses schema Y for validation. Once I made this decision, all later processing should be based on that, and any change in association should be expressed explicitly. With the approach described, changes in the map can cause changes in associations; and it can come completely unexpected to the user. Consider a system where the map is a system-wide resource. Providing a rule in the file that associates the document's URI with a resource does not help either. The association should persist if I change the name of the document. The fact that I renamed my document from users-guide.dbx to user-guide.dbx should not lead to any change in the associations to schemas and stylesheets. It is a property of the document as an entity to be valid against a schema and processable by a stylesheet, nor of its file name, or its root element, or its root element's namespace. If I misspell the root element or the namespace, I want an error message saying that the name or namespace are misspelled, not that the documented is invalid with respect to a schema selected according to a misspelled URL. Thus, for me the only reasonable choice is still to use the DOCTYPE declaration for all associations and only rely on other characteristics for interactive hints (a list of DOCTYPEs that should be good for this document). David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 14:07:35 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O77V4A027744 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:07:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9O745Y19921; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:04:05 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066978846.21207.279.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:07:35 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 14:00:46 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:07:35 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 13:07, David Tolpin wrote: > I agree that the approach can be convenietly used to assist the user > in choosing the right associations (a schema, a stylesheet, etc). But after > the association is chosen, it should be somehow attached to the document, > at least, in some cases. > > It is my decision that document X uses schema Y for validation. Once I made > this decision, all later processing should be based on that, and any change > in association should be expressed explicitly. That's one policy that you might want, but I don't think it's the only one. You can get it by explicitly adding a <uri resource="..." ...> element to a schema locating file. > With the approach described, changes in the map can cause changes in associations; > and it can come completely unexpected to the user. Consider a system where the map > is a system-wide resource. The user can choose whether to use a system-wide map or their own map. The user might *want* changing the map to cause changes in association. > Providing a rule in the file that associates the document's URI with a resource does not > help either. It's not perfect, but it certainly helps. > The association should persist if I change the name of the document. > > The fact that I renamed my document from users-guide.dbx to user-guide.dbx should not > lead to any change in the associations to schemas and stylesheets. That is a problem. The real solution is to be able to attach metadata to the file without changing the content; unfortunately filesystems typically can't do that. On the other hand, WebDAV can; you could have a new rule type that specified a WebDAV property that contains the URI of the schema for a document. > Thus, for me the only reasonable choice is still to use the DOCTYPE declaration for all > associations If you want to use DOCTYPEs, the nXML method can accomodate you (by doctypePublicId rules). However, I find the problems of using DOCTYPEs worse by far than the problem of associations disappearing on a rename. And even with DOCTYPEs, you can still get problem of the association changing; you still have to associate your DOCTYPEs with schemas. If you force me to put something in the instance, I would much prefer a processing instruction. There's no single right way to do the association. Different users will legitimately prefer different approaches. A solution needs to be flexible enough to accomodate them. James From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Oct 24 14:21:29 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O7LPE1029353 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:21:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9O7Iggv068620 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:18:42 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9O7IglK068619 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:18:42 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310240718.h9O7IglK068619@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <1066978846.21207.279.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:18:42 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:21:29 -0000 > The user might *want* changing the map to cause changes in association. But this should be done in such a way that all changes in associations for already associated documents are explicit and obvious. Without that, and with rules with complex inference, the consequences are not always desirable. I am talking from experience. At the time of RenderX, we had a client who complained about a bug in XEP (an XSL FO formatter) being unable to format a document and giving weird diagnostic messages (and our support people having no idea where this diagnostics comes from). I asked about their system, and indeed they had a CMS that associated documents and stylesheets based on complex rules stored in a database, and indeed the database administrator has changed the records in such a way that a chain of transformation had changed. The result was a user complaining of a tool that failed to format a documents 'when more figures are added' (which was just a coincidence). > > > Providing a rule in the file that associates the document's URI with a resource does not > > help either. > > It's not perfect, but it certainly helps. It certainly helps, I'm sorry for the wording; I meant it didn't help to avoid the trap just described. > That is a problem. The real solution is to be able to attach metadata to > the file without changing the content; unfortunately filesystems > typically can't do that. On the other hand, WebDAV can; you could have > a new rule type that specified a WebDAV property that contains the URI > of the schema for a document. Yes. But WebDAV is too much for many cases. > > Thus, for me the only reasonable choice is still to use the DOCTYPE declaration for all > > associations > > If you want to use DOCTYPEs, the nXML method can accomodate you (by > doctypePublicId rules). However, I find the problems of using DOCTYPEs > worse by far than the problem of associations disappearing on a rename. > And even with DOCTYPEs, you can still get problem of the association > changing; you still have to associate your DOCTYPEs with schemas. If > you force me to put something in the instance, I would much prefer a > processing instruction. > Well, you are right. I mentioned DOCTYPE but actually wanted something like a processing-instruction with something like a public identifier as the target. > There's no single right way to do the association. Different users will > legitimately prefer different approaches. A solution needs to be > flexible enough to accomodate them. But my concern is that that particular flexibility bears problems which are more scalable than the solution. That is, when the system is getting bigger, the problems outweigh the benefits. I realize that I can be wrong. David Tolpin From george@sync.ro Fri Oct 24 14:27:19 2003 Received: from decebal.sync.ro (decebal.sync.ro [217.156.64.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O7RGHJ029941 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:27:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from spelling ([10.0.0.19]) by decebal.sync.ro (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9O7OsPw003508 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:24:57 +0300 Message-ID: <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> From: "George Cristian Bina" <george@sync.ro> To: <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:33:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:27:20 -0000 Hi, I think it is important to both have an association with a schema specified inside the document and the possibility to associate the schema externally. The external association seems to me user dependent as each user may have his rules while the internal association is something user independent as the association comes with the document. For instance if I want to pass over a document to someone it is a lot simpler to allow him to validate the document if I have the association inside the document. We solved the association problem in oXygen using a PI, however it would be much better to have a PI every application that wants to support Relax NG should implement, thus users using different tools will be able to easily exchange documents. I think Relax NG should specify such a PI. (It will be good if NRL will also specify such a PI). I see the external association especially important when the user handles documents that do not or should not have an association inside the document. Best Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina mailto:george@sync.ro <oXygen/> XML Editor - http://www.oxygenxml.com/ From veillard@redhat.com Fri Oct 24 16:29:21 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O9TKqK043994 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:29:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h9O9TIM22594; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:29:18 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:29:18 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031024052918.A4507@redhat.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com>; from jjc@jclark.com on Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:31:09AM +0700 Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:29:21 -0000 On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:31:09AM +0700, James Clark wrote: > Once you decide that you want something outside the instance to control > the association, I think it's an obvious decision to express that > something in XML and it's highly desirable to make it > application-independent. Yes, this really makes sense. > > It's unclear > > to me whether the approach taken by nXML can really be expanded to other > > frameworks > > If it can't, then it's a bug. It was a fundamental design goal to > express the association rules in an application-independent way. > Eventually, I hope to implement this for Jing as well. Okay, thanks for the information. I will look at it once I'm done with the current work, the request in bugzilla will stay there to remind me about it, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From veillard@redhat.com Fri Oct 24 16:39:00 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O9d0NQ045045 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:39:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h9O9cvt26808; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:38:57 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:38:57 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Message-ID: <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com>; from jjc@jclark.com on Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:47:04AM +0700 Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>, John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:39:00 -0000 On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 08:47:04AM +0700, James Clark wrote: > Although it's important to be able to individually specify the schema to > use for a particular document, it's also convenient to be able to > specify rules that apply to classes of document. For example, on my > system I have a rule that says when the namespace URI of the document > element is http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0, then the schema is > /home/jjc/schema/relaxng.rnc. Hum, that's a place where I would expect the XML Catalogs to take a role in abstracting the file paths. I would still recommend to use a canonical URL (is there one for relaxng.rnc one http://relaxng.org ?) and have the catalogs remap to the actual file location. This was really important as we deployed DocBook processing tools on the various Linux distributions (and Solaris), I would like to be able to do the same as I'm starting to push Relax-NG schemas (DocBook, XHTML1, SVG are good candidate, as well as the RNG for RNG schema). It's less critical than when the reference ends up in the instance, but would still helps a lot for system setup, tools setup and documentation. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Oct 24 16:49:42 2003 Received: from dell (evlist.net1.nerim.net [213.41.149.10]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9O9nb9U046136 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:49:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.1.21]) by dell (Postfix) with ESMTP id D121023779; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:49:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> In-Reply-To: <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> References: <3F97C936.3010009@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <3F97CFBF.8090702@ts-cyberia.net> <20031023094327.O4507@redhat.com> <1066959011.21207.242.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1066988977.1402.2.camel@porteric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:49:37 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAXNG-USER <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:49:42 -0000 Hi James, On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 03:31, James Clark wrote: > Right. I believe it's quite wrong for a schema language to dictate that > a document type designer must use an element name or an attribute for a > particular purpose (as W3C XML Schema does with xsi:type or > xsi:schemaLocation). The document type designer should be the one who > decides what element names and attribute names to use, and the schema > language should allow the document type designer to write a schema to > reflect their decision. I think this extends to any association > mechanism and it also applies to processing instruction target names. Do you think this should be added to the requirements of DSDL - Part 10 (Validation Management) ? Eric -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From jjc@jclark.com Fri Oct 24 19:28:05 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OCS2TM064282 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:28:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9OCRXY21572; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:27:33 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: George Cristian Bina <george@sync.ro> In-Reply-To: <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1066998256.21207.284.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:28:05 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Oct 2003 19:24:16 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:28:05 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 15:33, George Cristian Bina wrote: > We solved the association problem in oXygen using a PI What does your PI look like exactly? James From george@sync.ro Fri Oct 24 20:17:13 2003 Received: from decebal.sync.ro (decebal.sync.ro [217.156.64.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9ODHBri072048 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from spelling ([10.0.0.19]) by decebal.sync.ro (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9ODEjPw011018; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:14:46 +0300 Message-ID: <029f01c39a3a$523f0bb0$1300000a@spelling> From: "George Cristian Bina" <george@sync.ro> To: "James Clark" <jjc@jclark.com> References: <200310240607.h9O67ENu068328@adat.davidashen.net> <009801c39a09$71af6890$1300000a@spelling> <1066998256.21207.284.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:22:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:17:13 -0000 Hi James, For Relax NG we have something like below: <?oxygen RNGSchema="test/RelaxNG/compact/test1.rnc" type="compact"?> <?oxygen RNGSchema="test/RelaxNG/XML/test1.rng" type="xml"?> For NRL: <?oxygen NRLSchema="test/RelaxNG/NRL/nrlSchema.nrl"?> I guess these can be put better into something like: <?schema location="schemaLocation" type="rnc|rng|nrl"?> For type we can eventually have as values: text/rnc, text/rng or text/nrl. For compact schemas we may also need an encoding pseudo attribute. Best Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- George Cristian Bina mailto:george@sync.ro <oXygen/> XML Editor - http://www.oxygenxml.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Clark" <jjc@jclark.com> To: "George Cristian Bina" <george@sync.ro> Cc: <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document > On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 15:33, George Cristian Bina wrote: > > > We solved the association problem in oXygen using a PI > > What does your PI look like exactly? > > James > > From gtxrg-relaxng-user@gmane.org Sat Oct 25 01:21:02 2003 Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OIL1BH023685 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:21:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6YV-00051L-00 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:20:59 +0200 Mail-Followup-To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6VL-0004yO-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:43 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6VL-0000g4-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:43 +0200 From: Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:17:42 +0200 Organization: Probably a good idea Lines: 28 Message-ID: <87ismeqz3t.fsf@doohan.bang.priv.no> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp, linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:xgfeDr3JnEiF3XlxGnMoYjZX4/g= Sender: news <news@sea.gmane.org> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:21:03 -0000 >>>>> Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com>: > Hum, that's a place where I would expect the XML Catalogs to take a > role in abstracting the file paths. I would still recommend to use a > canonical URL (is there one for relaxng.rnc one http://relaxng.org > ?) and have the catalogs remap to the actual file location. This > was really important as we deployed DocBook processing tools on the > various Linux distributions (and Solaris), I would like to be able > to do the same as I'm starting to push Relax-NG schemas (DocBook, > XHTML1, SVG are good candidate, as well as the RNG for RNG schema). > It's less critical than when the reference ends up in the instance, > but would still helps a lot for system setup, tools setup and > documentation. One way of doing this would be to have a similar approach to what's done with XML Catalogs on the different linuxen. Ie. have an /etc/xml/locator file in addition to the /etc/xml/catalog files, and have the RPMs, or deb packages, for different schemas, add and remove entries from this file. Of course, this would require a tool like your "xmlcatalog" program, and/or a hierarchical structure like that adopted by the debian SGML/XML policy http://people.debian.org/~mrj/xml-sgml-policy/debian-policy/ (...and it would also require all linux distros to adopt this format, which sort of overlaps with XML Catalogs, just as they have all started to use XML Catalogs...) From gtxrg-relaxng-user@gmane.org Sat Oct 25 01:31:08 2003 Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OIV7iM025407 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:31:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6iC-0005Ak-00 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:31:00 +0200 Mail-Followup-To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6d8-00057l-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:25:46 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AD6d8-0000xO-00 for <gmane-text-xml-relaxng-general@m.gmane.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:25:46 +0200 From: Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:25:45 +0200 Organization: Probably a good idea Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8765ieqyqe.fsf@doohan.bang.priv.no> References: <1066978846.21207.279.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> <200310240718.h9O7IglK068619@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp, linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Y1dnFjq0BIxHkz8y3eli91YF604= Sender: news <news@sea.gmane.org> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:31:09 -0000 >>>>> David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>: > Well, you are right. I mentioned DOCTYPE but actually wanted > something like a processing-instruction with something like a public > identifier as the target. >From the nXML Document/schema association proposal: ... A typeIdProcessingInstruction rule allows a document to specify its own typeId with a processing instruction. The target attribute specifies the processing instruction target that should be recognized as specifying a typeId in its value. For example, with an additional rule <typeIdProcessingInstruction target="my-doctype"/> a document that started <?my-doctype XHTML Transitional?> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> would be validated against xhtml-transitional.rnc. The entire proposal is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/259 From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Oct 25 01:43:51 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9OIhlop027686 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:43:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9OIf0gv073655 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:41:00 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9OIf0NS073654 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:41:00 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310241841.h9OIf0NS073654@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <8765ieqyqe.fsf@doohan.bang.priv.no> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:40:59 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:43:53 -0000 > >>>>> David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>: > > > Well, you are right. I mentioned DOCTYPE but actually wanted > > something like a processing-instruction with something like a public > > identifier as the target. > > >From the nXML Document/schema association proposal: > ... > A typeIdProcessingInstruction rule allows a document to specify its > own typeId with a processing instruction. The target attribute > specifies the processing instruction target that should be > recognized as specifying a typeId in its value. For example, with > an additional rule > > <typeIdProcessingInstruction target="my-doctype"/> > > a document that started > > <?my-doctype XHTML Transitional?> > <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > > would be validated against xhtml-transitional.rnc. > > The entire proposal is here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/259 Yes, I had read the proposal before posting. My opinion is that this association should be obligatory once present and could not be overriden. As specified, it can be overriden completely unexpectedly for the user. David Tolpin From jjc@jclark.com Sat Oct 25 06:12:05 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9ONC25V069373 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:12:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9ON8YY25380; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:08:35 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310241841.h9OIf0NS073654@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310241841.h9OIf0NS073654@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067036716.21207.303.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:12:06 -0000 X-Original-Date: 25 Oct 2003 06:05:16 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:12:06 -0000 On Sat, 2003-10-25 at 01:40, David Tolpin wrote: > My opinion is that this association should be > obligatory once present and could not be overriden. It's a basic tenet of RELAX NG that the schema is not inherent in the document and that validation is a process that has two independently-specifiable inputs. Section 8 of the spec says: "A conforming RELAX NG validator must be able to determine for any XML document and for any correct RELAX NG schema whether the document is valid with respect to the schema." If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if the document contains a particular processing instruction, then there should not be a way to validate it against a schema other than that specified in the processing instruction. That's clearly non-conformant. A conforming RELAX NG validator must allow you to use any schema to validate a document, no matter what processing instruction the document contains. James From jjc@jclark.com Sat Oct 25 06:20:22 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9ONKJji070298 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:20:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9ONJSY25417; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:19:28 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: Daniel Veillard <veillard@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> References: <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> <1066960024.21207.258.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> <20031024053857.B4507@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067037369.21207.314.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>, John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:20:22 -0000 X-Original-Date: 25 Oct 2003 06:16:09 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:20:22 -0000 On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 16:38, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Hum, that's a place where I would expect the XML Catalogs to take > a role in abstracting the file paths. I think that's an independent issue. If you are in an environment that has a policy of using XML catalogs for URI remapping in XML-related contexts, then it would make sense to use them for remapping both URIs occuring in include/externalRef in schemas and URIs occurring in locating files. However I don't see any need to explicitly couple locating files to catalogs. My personal opinion is that, although XML catalogs are an appropriate solution to the problem of publicId-to-URI mapping, using XML catalogs to perform URI-to-URI mapping is an XML-specific solution to a non-XML-specific problem. James From catcode@catcode.com Sat Oct 25 07:37:38 2003 Received: from tengu.host4u.net (tengu.host4u.net [209.150.128.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9P0bb1R079372 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:37:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (catcode@localhost) by tengu.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9P0aTP31146 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:36:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:36:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. David Eisenberg" <catcode@catcode.com> X-X-Sender: catcode@tengu.host4u.net To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310241925060.29421-100000@tengu.host4u.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Trang handling of (text|element) content X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:37:38 -0000 By "popular demand" my XML class wants to know about XML Schema. One example is a document that consists of one or more lists. A list consists of one or more items. Each item consists of text or a list. (Yes, I'm teaching about recursive definitions.) Sample document follows: <document> <list> <item> First item outer </item> <item> Second item outer </item> <item> <list> <item> nested first </item> </list> </item> <item> Third item outer </item> </list> </document> Relax NG follows: <grammar xmlns="http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"> <start> <element name="document"> <oneOrMore> <ref name="list-defn"/> </oneOrMore> </element> </start> <define name="list-defn"> <element name="list"> <oneOrMore> <element name="item"> <choice> <text /> <ref name="list-defn"/> </choice> </element> </oneOrMore> </element> </define> </grammar> Here's what Trang makes of it (with blank lines inserted for ease of reading). <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" elementFormDefault="qualified"> <xs:element name="document"> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence> <xs:element maxOccurs="unbounded" ref="list"/> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> <xs:element name="list"> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence> <xs:element maxOccurs="unbounded" ref="item"/> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> <xs:element name="item"> <xs:complexType mixed="true"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element minOccurs="0" ref="list"/> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:schema> But the "item" element is NOT mixed; if you make an item mixed as follows, then it's invalid according to Relax NG, but not according to XML Schema. <item> some text and a... <list> <item>nested</item> </list> </item> My questions are: 1) Can I write an XML Schema that will do exactly the same thing that the Relax NG does? 2) If so, how many hoops must I jump through to accomplish it? 3) I'm sure Trang's output is reasonable, but I don't understand the reasoning. Any simple explanations? -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Oct 25 10:20:45 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9P3Kg7i098675 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:20:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9P3Hrgv078560 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:17:53 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9P3HpTK078559 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:17:51 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <1067036716.21207.303.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:17:51 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:20:46 -0000 > > My opinion is that this association should be > > obligatory once present and could not be overriden. > > It's a basic tenet of RELAX NG that the schema is not inherent in the > document and that validation is a process that has two > independently-specifiable inputs. Section 8 of the spec says: "A > conforming RELAX NG validator must be able to determine for any XML > document and for any correct RELAX NG schema whether the document is > valid with respect to the schema." If I understand you correctly, > you're saying that if the document contains a particular processing > instruction, then there should not be a way to validate it against a > schema other than that specified in the processing instruction. That's > clearly non-conformant. A conforming RELAX NG validator must allow you > to use any schema to validate a document, no matter what processing > instruction the document contains. Yes, I am aware of it. I am saying that any engine using inference rules to determine the right association should have a well-defined single highest-priority rule, which is, when matched, cannot be overriden by any others. This has nothing to do with the ability to validate with various schemas. The validator itself does not even look at these rules. It validates. It can be passed any document and any schema, for example, by specifying the schema explicitely. But I want to make sure that I have a way to specify something about the document that does not allow racing matches. That way I am always sure that on my system a document I am explicit about its type is validated in a way I have specified for this type, whatever other rules sale. And this specific association can be expressed in a more persistent way than jing's command line. Other inference rules will still be used if a highest priority rule does not match, and it is a good thing. I just want explicit typing bound to a document, not to a keyboard keystroke. I surely understand something wrong. I am taking a pause until I realize what in particular. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Sat Oct 25 11:05:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9P45asH004327 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:05:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9P45KY26815; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:05:20 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Trang handling of (text|element) content From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: "J. David Eisenberg" <catcode@catcode.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310241925060.29421-100000@tengu.host4u.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310241925060.29421-100000@tengu.host4u.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067054519.21207.328.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:05:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: 25 Oct 2003 11:01:59 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:05:40 -0000 On Sat, 2003-10-25 at 07:36, J. David Eisenberg wrote: > One example is a document that consists of one or more lists. > A list consists of one or more items. Each item consists of text > or a list. > 1) Can I write an XML Schema that will do exactly the same thing that > the Relax NG does? IIRC, no. Content models in XSD have atoms that match elements. > 3) I'm sure Trang's output is reasonable, but I don't understand the > reasoning. Any simple explanations? When some RELAX NG schema cannot be translated exactly into XML Schema, Trang approximates by generalizing: it finds some XML Schema that allows everything that the RELAX NG allows, even if some things forbidden by the RELAX NG are not forbidden by the XML Schema. James From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Sat Oct 25 20:15:59 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9PDFwts061164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:15:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC86278622; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:15:54 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20031025141556.027bf968@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:16:32 +0100 To: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> From: Dave Pawson <dpawson@nildram.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] association of RELAX NG with a document In-Reply-To: <20031023175122.GE24090@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> <20031023124307.GI19975@mercury.ccil.org> <200310231440.h9NEeE4q062429@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:16:00 -0000 At 13:51 23/10/2003 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >David Tolpin scripsit: > > > In simpler words, the people who designed the > > technology don't see a consistent way to formally express an > > association that already exists, or didn't implement it yet. > >It's part of the general problem of specifying appropriate XML >processing; an RNG-specific solution is neither particularly >general nor, IMHO, particularly useful. > > > If I > > pretend that a document is valid against a RNG schema, how would I > > formally express it in a standard way? > >How about this: > ><?xml version="1.0"?> ><rdf:RDF Enough. No thanks John. regards daveP From pri@ddf.dk Sun Oct 26 02:50:03 2003 Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9PJnvT3005842 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 02:50:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ddf.dk (unknown [62.243.82.88]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D595EE0ED; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:49:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:49:35 +0200 From: Peter Ring <pri@ddf.dk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document References: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:50:03 -0000 I'm in sympathy with the desire not to gamble about what can be asserted about an XML instance. I'll elaborate a bit about why. I'm in favor of something similar to SGML's DOCTYPE. I'm aware of the bagage of DOCTYPE, but please, if just for a moment, consider that all the funny and peculiar features of SGML are there for a reason -- because someone actually needed them -- and that those needs don't go away just because we restrict the choice of encodings and markup delimiters. So maybe a DOCTYPE is overloaded with default attribute values etc. It also serves a more abstract purpose that won't ever go away -- it's a way to establish a contract between the producer and the consumers of a document. That a DOCTYPE declaration can refer to the external subset of a SGML or XML DTD happens to be a way to fulfil that purpose. From a user's point of view, it is not that important that Relax NG fundamentally is a better way of describing syntax if you won't be able to use it in a reliable and predictable way. I my world, there's nothing special about SGML and XML documents. They serve a number of purposes, but always as means to end, i.e., nobody actually wants 'XML documents', rather some business goal must be fulfilled, legal publishing in my case. Configuration management is inherent in the process, it is *not* an option. Documents have very long and complex lifecycles, and change is inevitable and must be planned for. Now, versioning (configuration management) of XML languages and vocabularies is not easy, the DOCTYPE declaration clearly doesn't fit the bill, and XML namespaces appear to be as much a part of the problem as the solution. But couldn't we at least have one (1) standard way of asserting that a XML document belongs to a (version of) a specific class of documents, "expressed in a more persistent way than jing's command line"? Kind regards Peter Ring David Tolpin wrote: <snip/> > But I want to make sure that I have a way to specify something about the document that > does not allow racing matches. That way I am always sure that on my system a document > I am explicit about its type is validated in a way I have specified for this type, > whatever other rules sale. And this specific association can be expressed in a more > persistent way than jing's command line. > > Other inference rules will still be used if a highest priority rule does not match, and it > is a good thing. I just want explicit typing bound to a document, not to a keyboard keystroke. > > I surely understand something wrong. I am taking a pause until I realize what in particular. From jjc@jclark.com Sun Oct 26 13:07:34 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9Q67VfC073604 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:07:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9Q67FY14285; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:07:15 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: Peter Ring <pri@ddf.dk> In-Reply-To: <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> References: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067148215.21207.387.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:07:39 -0000 X-Original-Date: 26 Oct 2003 13:03:35 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:07:39 -0000 On Sun, 2003-10-26 at 02:49, Peter Ring wrote: > I'm in favor of something similar to SGML's DOCTYPE. I'm aware of the > bagage of DOCTYPE, but please, if just for a moment, consider that all > the funny and peculiar features of SGML are there for a reason -- > because someone actually needed them -- and that those needs don't go > away just because we restrict the choice of encodings and markup delimiters. > > So maybe a DOCTYPE is overloaded with default attribute values etc. It > also serves a more abstract purpose that won't ever go away -- it's a > way to establish a contract between the producer and the consumers of a > document. That a DOCTYPE declaration can refer to the external subset of > a SGML or XML DTD happens to be a way to fulfil that purpose. A DOCTYPE declaration does nothing more than identify the external subset. Eliot Kimber is eloquent on this one. See for example the thread at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2000Jan/thread.html#66 > Documents have very long > and complex lifecycles, and change is inevitable and must be planned for. Which is exactly why your documents should not contain anything specific to a particular schema language. Who knows what schema language we'll all be using in 20 years? > But couldn't we at least have one (1) standard way of > asserting that a XML document belongs to a (version of) a specific class > of documents The assertion shouldn't be specific to a particular schema language. The assertion should be an assertion that the document belongs to a particular abstract type; an abstract document type involves more than just the (usually infinite) set of documents belonging to the type; there's also semantics, whether formal or informal. There is no standardized way to make such an assertion. It's not the job of RELAX NG (or indeed of any particular schema language) to standardize such a mechanism. If you want there to be a standard way, I suggest you take it up with the W3C or some other standards body. I agree that it's often desirable to have a document include information about the abstract type to which it belongs. But it's up to you to decide how your documents should represent this information, just like it's up to you to decide how they should represent any other information. If namespaces aren't enough, then use a PI or use an attribute on the document element. The choice is yours. A schema association mechanism should be able to make use of whatever reasonable way you've chosen rather than mandate a particular way. James From pri@ddf.dk Sun Oct 26 18:29:56 2003 Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9QBTueG004631 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:29:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from ddf.dk (unknown [62.243.82.88]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DF3480072; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:29:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3F9BB02F.9000507@ddf.dk> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:29:51 +0100 From: Peter Ring <pri@ddf.dk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: association of RELAX NG with a document References: <200310250317.h9P3HpTK078559@adat.davidashen.net> <3F9AD3CF.4000109@ddf.dk> <1067148215.21207.387.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> In-Reply-To: <1067148215.21207.387.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:29:57 -0000 Thanks for the pointer to the XHTML DOCTYPE discussion; I'm going to read up on ISO/IEC 10744:1997. To sum up for now, I'd prefer not to (have to) put schema-specific in the documents, given that the assertion shouldn't be specific to a particular schema language (or any other processing). I'd prefer not to maintain an unbounded number of ways to facilitate essentially the same thing (to classify a document and take appropriate action). Also, given that the main point of using XML is neutral storage and interchange, it would shure be nice if we had a few common access points that all XML producers and consumers could rely on. While I can establish a local way of representing the class of a document, I can't expect the off-the-shelf applications that we use today to know about it. And, there's no way I can know which XML producers and consumers I'll have to deal with tomorrow. Of course, it's not the duty of Relax NG to solve this problem. It's just that Relax NG is a hot spot for this discussion right now. Kind regards Peter Ring James Clark wrote: <snip/> > The assertion shouldn't be specific to a particular schema language. The > assertion should be an assertion that the document belongs to a > particular abstract type; an abstract document type involves more than > just the (usually infinite) set of documents belonging to the type; > there's also semantics, whether formal or informal. > > There is no standardized way to make such an assertion. It's not the job > of RELAX NG (or indeed of any particular schema language) to standardize > such a mechanism. If you want there to be a standard way, I suggest you > take it up with the W3C or some other standards body. > > I agree that it's often desirable to have a document include information > about the abstract type to which it belongs. But it's up to you to > decide how your documents should represent this information, just like > it's up to you to decide how they should represent any other > information. If namespaces aren't enough, then use a PI or use an > attribute on the document element. The choice is yours. A schema > association mechanism should be able to make use of whatever reasonable > way you've chosen rather than mandate a particular way. From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 29 02:31:12 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9SJV8Wc058612 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:31:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SJRugv007346 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:56 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9SJRsO6007345 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:54 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310281927.h9SJRsO6007345@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:54 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:31:13 -0000 Hi, if I understand it correctly, relaxng-based editors use validation algorithm as described in the paper about Jing (based on derivatives) to offer first elements of the current derivative as possible alternatives. However, for many practical cases, the set of valid elements at any given point is determined by a small context of the point; for docbook, for example, it is one parent and one preceding element for all cases. RELAX NG in general may require a wider context for this approach; due to its context-dependence. Is there a known algorithm to build distinct lookback contexts? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Thu Oct 30 10:16:59 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9U3Gvwe049495 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:16:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9U3DMY12884; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:13:23 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310281927.h9SJRsO6007345@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310281927.h9SJRsO6007345@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067483394.12264.65.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:17:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 30 Oct 2003 10:09:55 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:17:00 -0000 On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 02:27, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > if I understand it correctly, relaxng-based editors use validation algorithm as described > in the paper about Jing (based on derivatives) to offer first elements of the current > derivative as possible alternatives. > > However, for many practical cases, the set of valid elements at any given point is determined > by a small context of the point; for docbook, for example, it is one parent and one preceding > element for all cases. > > RELAX NG in general may require a wider context for this approach; due to its context-dependence. > Is there a known algorithm to build distinct lookback contexts? I don't know of one, but I've never looked. In nXML mode, I maintain state that allows me to incrementally compute validity. This state also allows me to determine the derivative at any point, without having to figure out what part of the context is relevant. There's a long comment at the beginning of the file rng-valid.el in the nXML mode distribution that explains my approach. James From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Oct 30 15:23:43 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9U8NdOs014183 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:23:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9U8KHgv016440 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:20:17 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9U8KGZE016439 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:20:16 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310300820.h9U8KGZE016439@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing In-Reply-To: <1067483394.12264.65.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:20:16 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:23:43 -0000 > > However, for many practical cases, the set of valid elements at any given point is determined > > by a small context of the point; for docbook, for example, it is one parent and one preceding > > element for all cases. > > > > RELAX NG in general may require a wider context for this approach; due to its context-dependence. > > Is there a known algorithm to build distinct lookback contexts? > > I don't know of one, but I've never looked. In nXML mode, I maintain > state that allows me to incrementally compute validity. This state also > allows me to determine the derivative at any point, without having to > figure out what part of the context is relevant. There's a long comment > at the beginning of the file rng-valid.el in the nXML mode distribution > that explains my approach. James, thank you. I had read the comment and the source code of nXML (an exciting experience indeed) before posting the comment. I am also familiar with a similar technique because it had been used in a pascal interpreter for secondary schools in early 90s (a demo with coloring of up-to-date areas was nice). The problem -- my problem -- is that I am writing a program that needs to know 1) not just the set of first elements in a pattern, but a set of all elements of particular kind (block-level text markup -- para, title, term, listitem) which do not have the opening tag of a preceding element in this pattern. <listitem> </itemizedlist> (<para>|<itemizedlist><listitem/>+</itemizedlist>) </section>* <section> <title> ... should bring '(listitem para title). This has roughly exponential time compared to the time to compute first elements. 2) other contexts where b indirectly follows a, to decide whether it is appropriate to offer to close a group and/or open a new one. This requires (or I just think so) analysis of the grammar, not just of the derivative. I tried to compute the things dynamically, but my algorithm was not fast enough to use interactively. I'll try again, or maybe it's just my slow notebook. Thank you again, David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Oct 30 15:28:05 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h9U8S2Xb014662 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:04 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9U8Oegv016461 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:24:40 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h9U8OeKc016460 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:24:40 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200310300824.h9U8OeKc016460@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <3FA05C02.8090508@datalucid.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:24:40 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Block border/padding behaviour X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:28:06 -0000 > Setting margin-right='0pt' did create the effect I was after (although > produced some strange overlaps with borders on the next cell in my table). That's right. margin-end was a typo. > Also I'll have to check the difference between margin-end and > margin-right (or see whether it's just a processor implementation > difference). The difference is in the time zone, not between implementations; I was writing the answer at the end of the day. > (Having worked on the formatting of corporate reports for over 10 years > and XSL-FO for the last 18 months > I still find the XSL-FO specification over-complex in 'basic' areas > (e.g. margins) and deficient or unnatural in 'common' ones (e.g. > justification / leaders). > Maybe I'm trying to fit it to the wrong perceptual model.) > They are just different. (start-|end-)indent is zero, by default. It is turns to be convenient if accepts the idea that borders are drawn around text, not text is printed inside borders. For me, borders are decorations. What kind of problems do you have with justification/leaders, by the way? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Sun Nov 2 06:54:16 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA1NsErY005054 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:54:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.172] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hA1NoIU27046; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:50:19 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200310300820.h9U8KGZE016439@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200310300820.h9U8KGZE016439@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1067730408.12264.297.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" <relaxng-user@relaxng.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:54:16 -0000 X-Original-Date: 02 Nov 2003 06:46:48 +0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:54:16 -0000 On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 15:20, David Tolpin wrote: > The problem -- my problem -- is that I am writing a program that needs to know > > 1) not just the set of first elements in a pattern, but a set of > all elements of particular kind (block-level text markup -- para, > title, term, listitem) which do not have the opening tag of a > preceding element in this pattern. I don't understand what you mean by "have the opening tag of a preceding element in this pattern". > > <listitem> > </itemizedlist> > (<para>|<itemizedlist><listitem/>+</itemizedlist>) > </section>* > <section> > <title> > ... Is this a description of a content model or an instance or both? > should bring '(listitem para title). Why? > 2) other contexts where b indirectly follows a, to decide whether it is appropriate to > offer to close a group and/or open a new one. So you are currently in a chapter element, say, and you get a paragraph of text indicative of the start of a section and you need to decide whether to close the chapter before opening the section? Is that the problem? Why can't you do this on the basis of parent/child relationships i.e. leave the chapter open iff the chapter can contain a section? I don't think I'm going to be able to help without a lot more detail about the problem you're trying to solve. James From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 2 15:25:01 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA28OvZ7059164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:24:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA28LFgv037223 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:21:15 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA28LFPr037222 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:21:15 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311020821.hA28LFPr037222@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] relaxng-driven editing In-Reply-To: <1067730408.12264.297.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:21:15 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 08:25:02 -0000 > > 1) not just the set of first elements in a pattern, but a set of > > all elements of particular kind (block-level text markup -- para, > > title, term, listitem) which do not have the opening tag of a > > preceding element in this pattern. > > I don't understand what you mean by "have the opening tag of a preceding > element in this pattern". In the derivative. In other words, any element that is the first block-level markup element following the current context is allowed. This is how text documents are normally entered, in my opinion. That is, one types the text, not the markup; if a new chapter should be started, one types its title. The editor then recognizes that it can be a title, offers to markup it as such (with other variants being para or term, for example) and adds structural markup between the previous paragraph and the current title as </section><section>, for example. I have a proof-of-concept implementation of this approach (http://davidashen.net/preti.html), which works for subsets of docbook, xhtml and DITA; however, the algorithm to determine structurally allowed elements and derive the group-level markup is ugly. Actually, writing a message helps understand the issue better; I am now feeling I roughly understand the algorithm I need, and, you are right indeed, it should be based on computing derivatives. > > <listitem> > > </itemizedlist> > > (<para>|<itemizedlist><listitem/>+</itemizedlist>) > > </section>* > > <section> > > <title> > > ... > > Is this a description of a content model or an instance or both? This is a description of a content model (I forgot asterisk after <listitem> - and sorry for the syntax, rnc would be more readable but I needed something that shows opening and closing tags separately); this is a derivative after a listitem is entered. > > > should bring '(listitem para title). > > Why? Because the user does not enter markup. It enters text and then confirms, alters or rejects tags which are offered by the program. > > > 2) other contexts where b indirectly follows a, to decide whether it is appropriate to > > offer to close a group and/or open a new one. > > So you are currently in a chapter element, say, and you get a paragraph > of text indicative of the start of a section and you need to decide > whether to close the chapter before opening the section? Is that the > problem? Why can't you do this on the basis of parent/child > relationships i.e. leave the chapter open iff the chapter can contain a > section? You are right; however, if I am inside a listitem and get a title, I need to close the item, the list, then open a new section (or chapter - the user decides). Whether I should close the current section is a question the user should answer, because sections can be nested. I see now that I can compute context based on derivatives. My problem with it is that it is more convenient for the user to first confirm opening of a new group, then to deal with closing current groups. <para/>.<title/>-> <para/>.<section><title/> -> <para/></section>.<section> -> .
But look like I can simply visit the nodes fro right to left, children first, to get this sequence for the elements to open. > > I don't think I'm going to be able to help without a lot more detail > about the problem you're trying to solve. > You are already helping, thank you. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Nov 4 02:47:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA3JlIoF020602 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 02:47:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA3JhRgv044631 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:43:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA3JhPSU044630 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:43:25 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311031943.hA3JhPSU044630@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:43:25 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] @name|name X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:47:23 -0000 Hi, If an element node has both ./@name and ./name, is it an error or are they combined? David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 4 02:56:21 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA3JuJeG022220 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 02:56:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144241AEA17; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:56:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] @name|name From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311031943.hA3JhPSU044630@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311031943.hA3JhPSU044630@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1067889377.5887.525.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:56:18 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:56:21 -0000 On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 20:43, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > If an element node has both ./@name and ./name, is it an error or are they combined? If you mean a pattern element, it's an error, but you can explicitly combine two name name classes through a "choice", for instance: <element> <choice> <name>foo</name> <name>bar</name> </choice> <empty/> </element> Eric -- Read me on XMLhack. http://xmlhack.com/author.php?id=8 Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Nov 5 21:13:17 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5EDCGd073111 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:13:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA5E99gv056576 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:09:09 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA5E95r6056575 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:09:05 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311051409.hA5E95r6056575@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:09:05 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] engTagDeriv X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:13:18 -0000 Hi, Am I right in assuming that if I add the element's name to the After pattern, and then compare it with the name of the closing tag, I can check for well-formedness during validation? That is, instead of maintaining a separate stack of open elements, I can keep the values in After patterns? Or am I missing something obvious? David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 6 03:25:09 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5KP6uS036813 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 03:25:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA5KL2gv058155 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:21:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA5KL1Ph058154 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:21:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311052021.hA5KL1Ph058154@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:21:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:25:11 -0000 Hi, is it legal to have <element name="x"> <text/> <attribute name="y"/> </element> ? From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Nov 6 04:36:14 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5LaE0i047620 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 04:36:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08586; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:31:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:31:54 -0500 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? Message-ID: <20031105213154.GK18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200311052021.hA5KL1Ph058154@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311052021.hA5KL1Ph058154@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:36:16 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > is it legal to have > > <element name="x"> > <text/> > <attribute name="y"/> > </element> Sure. Because attribute ordering doesn't matter in XML, RNG always treats attribute patterns in a group pattern (in this case, an implicit one) as if they were interleaved. Therefore, they can appear in any position when they are children of an element pattern. -- Using RELAX NG compact syntax to John Cowan develop schemas is one of the simple http://www.reutershealth.com pleasures in life.... http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Jeni Tennison <jcowan@reutershealth.com> From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 6 04:53:53 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5LroeX050138 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 04:53:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA5Lnjgv058635 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:49:45 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA5Lnj7M058634 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:49:45 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311052149.hA5Lnj7M058634@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? In-Reply-To: <20031105213154.GK18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:49:45 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:53:53 -0000 > > </element> > > Sure. Because attribute ordering doesn't matter in XML, RNG always treats > attribute patterns in a group pattern (in this case, an implicit one) > as if they were interleaved. Therefore, they can appear in any position > when they are children of an element pattern. Thank you, I realized it shortly after asking, I'm sorry for the noise. I mean, not the attributes' ordering, but the correct way to compute the derivative. Does <attribute name="x"><empty/></attribute> match an attribute value consisting only of whitespace? David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Nov 6 05:14:13 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA5MEDlt053341 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 05:14:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09164; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:21 -0500 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] <attribute/> after <text/>? Message-ID: <20031105221021.GP18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20031105213154.GK18857@skunk.reutershealth.com> <200311052149.hA5Lnj7M058634@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311052149.hA5Lnj7M058634@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:14:13 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > Does <attribute name="x"><empty/></attribute> match an attribute value consisting > only of whitespace? Yes. The only time whitespace is not ignored is in data or value patterns where the datatype preserves it, which in practice is only in string and xsd:string. -- All Gaul is divided into three parts: the part John Cowan that cooks with lard and goose fat, the part www.ccil.org/~cowan that cooks with olive oil, and the part that www.reutershealth.com cooks with butter. -- David Chessler jcowan@reutershealth.com From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Nov 7 06:40:24 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA6NeK0b068067 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 06:40:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA6Na8gv064177 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:36:08 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hA6Na20L064176 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:36:02 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200311062336.hA6Na20L064176@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:36:02 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] reversed derivative? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:40:25 -0000 Hi, I am implementing an authoring tool for structured documents. The key feature of this tool is that the user enters just text, consisting of paragraphs. The editor offers feasible tags for the paragraphs, based on the structural features of the paragraph and on the context, and then offers alternative tag sequences between the current and the previous paragraph. That is, for grammar start = element book { title, chapter* } title = element title { text } section = element section { title, block* } chapter = element chapter { title, block*, section* } block = element para { text } | element list { element item { text }+ } - if something looking as a <title> is entered inside a <list>, and if user confirms that it is indeed a <title>, - the <list> will be closed, a new <section> or <chapter> will be opened - optionally, the current <section> (and <chapter>) will be closed. A preliminary version was implemented and appears to be useful. However, the algorithms used are not appropriate for unrestricted grammars. I have been able to re-implement the algorithms using the validation algorithm as described at http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/derivative.html, with obvious extensions needed to compute all possible paths between the current and the previous paragraphs. However, the straightforward extension requires that decisions are made in the document order, that is, first elements are closed, then opened top-down. It appears to be more convenient and natural, however (the previous version had an option which allowed to choose the order) to - first open new group tags, bottom-up (that is, term->varlistentry->variablelist) - then offer to close, again bottom-up currently open tags which can optionally be closed. (open elements which are to be closed in all alternatives are closed as soon as possible). I would be grateful for a hint or a pointer to a source which can help me implement this behaviour. I am trying to build the ascending parts suitable for reverse reduction by traversing the schema from right to left and precomputing the derivatives for all block-level elements, but am not sure that I am moving in the right direction. Sincerely, David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com Fri Nov 7 09:08:23 2003 Received: from cutter.rexx.com (root@ias-207-167-89-8.icg.znet.net [207.167.89.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA728MX5088761 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:08:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from dkuhlman@localhost) by cutter.rexx.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id hA728GR90106 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkuhlman) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:08:16 -0800 From: Dave Kuhlman <dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Subject: [relaxng-user] Python support for RELAX NG? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:08:24 -0000 Is there someplace I can look for Python support for RELAX NG? I searched the RELAX NG email list archives and also did a Web search. I've found A.M. Kuchling's parser for the XML syntax, and I'm looking into that. I've written quite a bit of a parser for the compact syntax. I'm using PLY to build the parser: http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/. I'd like to know if it's already been done before continuing. Dave -- Dave Kuhlman dkuhlman@rexx.com http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman From amk@amk.ca Fri Nov 7 09:18:07 2003 Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail8.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.208]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hA72I6ij090213 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:18:06 +0700 (ICT) Received: (qmail 26466 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 02:18:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rogue.amk.ca) ([66.92.163.165]) (envelope-sender <amk@amk.ca>) by mail8.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-SHA encrypted SMTP for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; 7 Nov 2003 02:18:05 -0000 Received: from amk by rogue.amk.ca with local (Exim 4.24) id 1AHwC8-0003TR-Al for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 21:17:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:17:52 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Python support for RELAX NG? Message-ID: <20031107021752.GB13333@rogue.amk.ca> Mail-Followup-To: amk@amk.ca, relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031106180816.A89573@cutter.rexx.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: "A.M. Kuchling" <amk@amk.ca> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: amk@amk.ca List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:18:07 -0000 On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 06:08:16PM -0800, Dave Kuhlman wrote: > Is there someplace I can look for Python support for RELAX NG? I have a page of rough notes at http://www.amk.ca/notes/rng.html . libxml2 (www.xmlsoft.org) includes a RELAX NG validator and comes with Python bindings. > I've written quite a bit of a parser for the compact syntax. I'm > using PLY to build the parser: http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/. > I'd like to know if it's already been done before continuing. David Mertz has a Python script that's supposed to translate from RNC to RNG, but when I tried it on the RELAX NG schema, it crashed. There's a link to it from my notes. --amk From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Thu Nov 13 22:43:13 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hADFh7jK026994 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:43:13 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: VRKZS7hOzHFO2M/4KgrV7g 1068738179 Received: from [134.53.28.175] (u175.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.175]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D94D40472C for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:42:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <14E1063A-15F0-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:43:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] customization layers in rnc? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:43:14 -0000 Can someone please help me understand how to implement the following customization layer for the DocBook DTD in RNC? Simply running Trang on it gets me the following error: dbcitx.dtd:21:67: fatal: syntax error Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- <!-- This is a customization layer for DocBook XML 4.1.2 which implements RFE 810932 - improved citation support --> <!ENTITY % citation.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % citation.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % citation.attlist "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % blockquote.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % blockquote.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % blockquote.attlist "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % quote.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % quote.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % quote.attlist "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % epigraph.module "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % epigraph.element "IGNORE"> <!ENTITY % epigraph.attlist "IGNORE"> <!-- load original DocBook stuff --> <!ENTITY % DocBookDTD PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN"> %DocBookDTD; <!-- extend the citation element. we add two attributes: renderas (select the processing expectations) caption (provide additional text) we add one element: Biblioref (extended bibliographic data) --> <!ENTITY % local.citation.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % citation.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT biblioref - - EMPTY> <!ATTLIST biblioref linkend IDREF #IMPLIED endterm IDREF #IMPLIED unit NMTOKEN #IMPLIED start NMTOKEN #IMPLIED stop NMTOKEN #IMPLIED > <!ELEMENT citation - - ((%para.char.mix;|biblioref)+)> <!ATTLIST citation %common.attrib; %citation.role.attrib; %local.citation.attrib; renderas (full|author|year|title) "full" caption CDATA #IMPLIED > <!-- done with the citation element --> <!-- extend the blockquote element --> <!ENTITY % local.blockquote.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % blockquote.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT blockquote - - (title?, attribution?, (%component.mix;)+, biblioref?)> <!ATTLIST blockquote %common.attrib; %blockquote.role.attrib; %local.blockquote.attrib; > <!-- done with blockquote --> <!-- extend the quote element --> <!ENTITY % local.quote.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % quote.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT quote - - ((%para.char.mix;)+, biblioref?)> <!ATTLIST quote %common.attrib; %quote.role.attrib; %local.quote.attrib; > <!-- done with quote --> <!-- extend the epigraph element --> <!ENTITY % local.epigraph.attrib ""> <!ENTITY % epigraph.role.attrib "%role.attrib;"> <!ELEMENT epigraph - - (attribution?, (%para.class;)+, biblioref?)> <!ATTLIST epigraph %common.attrib; %epigraph.role.attrib; %local.epigraph.attrib; > <!-- done with epigraph --> From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 16 00:08:01 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAFH7q1N015472 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:08:01 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: 696kUw7wAVHJog3ABbrM8g 1068916063 Received: from [134.53.28.204] (u204.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.204]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA17412676 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:07:42 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <42E65845-178E-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:07:58 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] customization layer in relax ng? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:08:02 -0000 Regarding previous post on customization layer in rnc, I think I've gotten most of the way to implementing it, but I'm now stuck. I think I'm just unclear about where to put the damned curly-brackets when redefining elements. Help, please. Bruce ================================================ include "docbook.rnc" biblioref = element biblioref { biblioref.attlist } biblioref.attlist &= attribute linkend { xsd:IDREF }, attribute endterm { xsd:IDREF }, attribute unit { xsd:token }, attribute start {xsd:token }, attribute stop { xsd:token } citation = para.char.mix*, biblioref*, citation.attlist citation.attlist &= common.attrib, citation.role.attrib, local.citation.attrib, attribute renderas { "full" | "author" | "year" | "title" }?, attribute caption { text }? } # done with the citation element # extend the blockquote element local.blockquote.attrib = blockquote.role.attrib blockquote.role.attrib = role.attrib blockquote = title?, attribution?, component.mix+, biblioref?, blockquote.attlist blockquote.attlist &= common.attrib, blockquote.role.attrib, local.blockquote.attrib # done with blockquote From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Fri Nov 21 05:27:19 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAKMREUB016479 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:27:19 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: nZVQE75SBfpZPhjq7VWJmA 1069367224 Received: from fastmail.fm (unknown [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384BB437705 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:27:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:27:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@fastmail.fm> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <A8B783F2-1BA8-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [relaxng-user] combining schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:27:21 -0000 I'm interested in experimenting with mixing docbook with a separate namespaced metadata schema, but I seem to be stuck with a "duplicate definition of start" error that I don't know how to get rid of. Basically I want an instance like so: <document> <meta> <mods:name/> <mods:titleInfo/> </meta> <content> <section> <title>Introduction blah, blah, blah
You could imagine Dublin Core in place of MODS. Here's what I have at the moment: =============================== start = document include "docbook.rnc" include "mods3.rnc" document = element document { meta, content } meta = ModsSchema content = { "article" | "book" | "chapter" } =============================== What am I doing wrong?? Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Fri Nov 21 05:47:01 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAKMkxJU019201 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:47:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388E8BC54; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:46:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: "Bruce D'Arcus" In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:46:53 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:47:00 -0000 Hi, On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 23:27, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > Here's what I have at the moment: > =============================== > start = document > include "docbook.rnc" > include "mods3.rnc" > document = element document { meta, content } > meta = ModsSchema > content = { "article" | "book" | "chapter" } > =============================== > > What am I doing wrong?? If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content with a new one. Since here you want to replace its definition, the only option left is to redefine it: include "docbook.rnc" { start = document } include "mods3.rnc" document = element document { meta, content } meta = ModsSchema content = { "article" | "book" | "chapter" } BTW, this last pattern means that content is a value equal to "article", "book" or "chapter". This is illegal to include that after "meta" if it's an element and, in any case, probably not what you mean. What about: content = { article | book | chapter } ??? Hope that helps. Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://masl.to/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com Fri Nov 21 07:33:33 2003 Received: from cutter.rexx.com (root@ias-207-167-89-8.icg.znet.net [207.167.89.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAL0XWkS034094 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:33:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from dkuhlman@localhost) by cutter.rexx.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id hAL0XQl56335 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkuhlman) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:33:26 -0800 From: Dave Kuhlman To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: <20031120163326.A56261@cutter.rexx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Subject: [relaxng-user] Python parser for RELAX NG compact syntax X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:33:34 -0000 I've implemented (most of) a parser in Python for the RELAX NG compact syntax. It's written in Python and uses PLY (yet another implementation of lex and yacc for Python). The parser produces a parse tree whose nodes are instances of a class ASTNode, which is defined in the parser module. It's recognizes most but *not* all of the compact syntax, but, hopefully, recognizes enough to make it useful, and can be extended when necessary. You can find documentation on the parser here: http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman/relaxngcompact.html And, you can find a distribution file here: http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman/relaxngcompact-1.0a.tar.gz If I can be of help with this, please let me know. Dave -- Dave Kuhlman dkuhlman@rexx.com http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Fri Nov 21 22:45:20 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hALFjJoJ053899 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:45:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hALFdFvC014847 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:39:15 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hALFiwd7007270 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:45:07 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:44:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:44:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:45:22 -0000 I've written a paper for XML 2003 on a technique for dual use of DTDs and RNG schemas suggested by James on the nxml list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/129). I've posted the paper at http://www.snee.com/bob/temp/06-04-05.html, and would love to hear suggestions from anyone who has a chance to read it in the next few days. One question I have in particular is whether "add-on schema," as I've termed it, is the most appropriate name for a schema that specifies constraints to be used in conjunction with a DTD, or if another term makes more sense, such as "auxiliary schema." Writing this was a bit of a milestone for me: I downloaded the conference paper DTD, converted it to RNC, and wrote the paper using Emacs and nxml without ever looking at the DTD or RNC files. (The acronym "RNC," by the way, has odd associations for people in the United States, because it usually refers to the "Republican National Committee," the group that runs George Bush's political party.) thanks, Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Fri Nov 21 23:47:07 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hALGl7F6064900 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 23:47:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hALGl6cm006521 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HOP000VONYHU2@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] ([129.152.201.157]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HOP007I0NYG3W@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:47:05 -0800 From: kk@kohsuke.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas In-reply-to: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20031121084702.DBB6.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:47:08 -0000 > BTW, this last pattern means that content is a value equal to "article", > "book" or "chapter". This is illegal to include that after "meta" if > it's an element Why? > and, in any case, probably not what you mean. What about: regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From jjc@jclark.com Sat Nov 22 08:50:18 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAM1oF69047591 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:50:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [192.168.0.148] ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAM1nu518424; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:49:58 +0700 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper From: James Clark To: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1069465573.1410.36.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:46:13 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:50:19 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-21 at 22:44, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > I've written a paper for XML 2003 on a technique for dual use of DTDs and > RNG schemas suggested by James on the nxml list > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/message/129). I've posted the > paper at http://www.snee.com/bob/temp/06-04-05.html, and would love to hear > suggestions from anyone who has a chance to read it in the next few days. A few comments: 1. You suggest doing RNG validation in addition to DTD validation. So long as you do RNG DTD-compatibility checking, RNG validation alone is enough (although I can well imaging non-technical reasons for doing DTD validation). 2. With DTD validation, you can only check that the document is valid with respect to the DTD that the document specifies. In many cases, even in a DTD-based environment, there is a requirement that the document use a specific DTD, but DTD validation provides no way to enforce this. RNG validation helps with this too. 3. Apropos using these techniques with W3C XML Schema, if you use Trang to convert from DTD to XSD, then your parameter entities will be preserved, at least to some degree. 4. You say: > To do this, however, the conversion utility parsing the DTD must know > whether each parameter entity declares a piece of a content model or > an attribute list, but to a DTD parser they're all just strings. Although in an a DTD to RNG conversion Trang converts parameter entities only to definitions, it can't do this unless it can figure out what kind of thing the parameter entity is representing. This is what makes preserving parameter entities so hard: to a DTD parser they are all indeed just strings, but you need to know more than this to do any kind of conversion, whether to RNG or XSD. (What Trang does approximately is to expand the parameter entities, keeping track of which parameter entities each character in the result comes from, then parse, then unexpand those parameter entities that correspond consistently to some syntactic unit.) James From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sat Nov 22 10:00:43 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAM30gXZ056777 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:00:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ANO0d-0001S8-00; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:00:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:00:31 -0500 To: James Clark Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031122030031.GE26171@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1069465573.1410.36.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1069465573.1410.36.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:00:43 -0000 James Clark scripsit: > 1. You suggest doing RNG validation in addition to DTD validation. So > long as you do RNG DTD-compatibility checking, RNG validation alone is > enough (although I can well imaging non-technical reasons for doing DTD > validation). > > 2. With DTD validation, you can only check that the document is valid > with respect to the DTD that the document specifies. In many cases, > even in a DTD-based environment, there is a requirement that the > document use a specific DTD, but DTD validation provides no way to > enforce this. RNG validation helps with this too. Since DTDs can be used as validation schemas, the true division is between an incorporated DTD and a validation schema rather than between DTD validation and RNG/WXS validation. -- Is a chair finely made tragic or comic? Is the John Cowan portrait of Mona Lisa good if I desire to see jcowan@reutershealth.com it? Is the bust of Sir Philip Crampton lyrical, www.ccil.org/~cowan epical or dramatic? If a man hacking in fury www.reutershealth.com at a block of wood make there an image of a cow, is that image a work of art? If not, why not? --Stephen Dedalus From mamiano@nc.rr.com Sat Nov 22 21:05:54 2003 Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.102]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAME5sdS033923 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:05:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from nc.rr.com (rdu26-47-081.nc.rr.com [66.26.47.81]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id hAME5rFm001267 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:05:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3FBF6D2A.1030807@nc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:05:30 -0500 From: Mitch Amiano User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031008 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <200311220500.hAM504ee071496@thaiopensource.com> In-Reply-To: <200311220500.hAM504ee071496@thaiopensource.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: mamiano@nc.rr.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:05:56 -0000 "Auxiliary" is suggestive of a subordinated role. Ditto for "add-on", which sounds like a band-aid(tm). "Adjunct" sounds a litle more academic, but is also a discounting term. You might consider the goals your technique addresses... the value of the role proposed for the relaxng schemas in the use-case. How about "migration schema" (schemas used in migrating from one validation workflow to another), "refinement schema" (schemas which refine the precision with which an existing workflow can perform validation), or "articulation schema" (schemas which provide controlled jointing between other schemas, addressing different validation goals). relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:44:55 -0500 > From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" > Subject: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX > NG schemas" paper > To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org > I've written a paper /snip/ > One question I have in particular is whether "add-on schema," as I've termed > it, is the most appropriate name for a schema that specifies constraints to > be used in conjunction with a DTD, or if another term makes more sense, such > as "auxiliary schema." From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 23 23:42:27 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hANGgRiE004142 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:42:27 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: s5/75EKMrBB1PmFNHNwWJw 1069605739 Received: from [134.53.28.173] (u173.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.173]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F1243DA93 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:42:19 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> References: <1069368413.21694.83.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <113E7B89-1DD4-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:42:46 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:42:28 -0000 On Nov 20, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >> What am I doing wrong?? > > If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the > start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content > with a new one. Thanks for this Eric. I was able to get it working ultimately. I'm now stuck with the same duplicate start problem in another circumstance. The mods schema has an extension element that allows one to embed content from other namespaced schema. I have create simple schema called bibio-notes, which I want to use to add marked up annotations to the record. I assumed the following would work, but I am getting the duplicate start error from nxml mode. The start pattern for mods is: start = ModsSchema. Here's my schema: include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } Once again: what am I missing? Also, do I need to do something special to get the namespace for biblio-notes attached to the extension element in mods for validation? Bruce From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Mon Nov 24 21:00:44 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAOE0hXu059701 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:00:44 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAOE0M003822 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:27 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:17 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E1FFF@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: [relaxng-user] Pattern. X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:00:44 -0000 I'm trying to find a pattern for the en-us attribute. If I pull the list of langs from iso 639 and 3166, How can I specify a pattern using en fr ... ditto for country codes. I.e. what is the contents of ???? Trying - Seems wrong via jing/nxml-mode Regards DaveP. **** snip here ***** - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. 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RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Nov 25 01:24:13 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAOIODbh003203 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:24:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAOIHDvC019160; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:17:14 -0500 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAOINtd7007871; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:59 -0500 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: "'James Clark'" Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:24:17 -0000 James, Thanks very much for the review. (And thanks to everyone else who looked it over.) >1. You suggest doing RNG validation in addition to DTD validation. So >long as you do RNG DTD-compatibility checking, RNG validation alone is >enough (although I can well imaging non-technical reasons for doing DTD >validation). Thanks, good point. I was thinking about the continued use of the DTD as before, which usually means in conjunction with some app that uses DTDs for validation and more, such as an editor. I will make this clearer. >2. With DTD validation, you can only check that the document is valid >with respect to the DTD that the document specifies. In many cases, >even in a DTD-based environment, there is a requirement that the >document use a specific DTD, but DTD validation provides no way to >enforce this. RNG validation helps with this too. I'm not sure what you mean here--I thought part of the RNG philosophy was to avoid hard-coding a link between a document and a schema. Can you give me an example? >3. Apropos using these techniques with W3C XML Schema, if you use Trang >to convert from DTD to XSD, then your parameter entities will be >preserved, at least to some degree. I see now that when converting the first example in my article, it does declare and reference a name.content type, but not a quantity.type one. >(What Trang does approximately is >to expand the parameter entities, keeping track of which parameter >entities each character in the result comes from, then parse, then >unexpand those parameter entities that correspond consistently to some >syntactic unit.) Well, we certainly have to thank you for going to the trouble, when according to my research no one else really has! Bob From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 01:54:41 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAOIsfBF008346 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:54:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOLkh-00007S-00; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:48:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:48:03 -0500 To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Pattern. Message-ID: <20031124184803.GG28930@mercury.ccil.org> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E1FFF@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E1FFF@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:54:43 -0000 David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk scripsit: > I'm trying to find a pattern for the en-us attribute. What you are trying to do is not possible. You need to use a WXS pattern instead. > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > The list pattern can only cope with whitespace-separated items, not with arbitrary concatenations. In any case, the RFC 3066 language codes are an open set. You should either accept any arbitrary string of ASCII alphas, digits, and hyphen (you can rule out initial, final, and consecutive hyphens if you like), or else a fixed set of values that your application understands. -- One art / There is John Cowan No less / No more http://www.reutershealth.com All things / To do http://www.ccil.org/~cowan With sparks / Galore -- Douglas Hofstadter From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 25 15:14:14 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP8EDcR025419 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:14:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAP8Dq001562 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:13:57 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:13:46 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:13:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:14:16 -0000 Bob, I'm being faced in two cases with an XSD | Relax NG as master problem. I'm convinced its not a technical decision (almost certainly in one case) but more of a political one. A perception that the majority are using W3C XSD, hence we should, or MS use it, it must be right. I recall James spoke at one time of the two schema's together, but I don't have a url. Has anyone collated a comparison to help people choosing between the two? What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? regards DaveP. - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 25 15:17:30 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP8HTpo025816 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:17:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAP8Gq001640; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:16:57 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:16:46 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2005@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: cowan@mercury.ccil.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] Pattern. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:16:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:17:30 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan What you are trying to do is not possible. You need to use a WXS pattern instead. The list pattern can only cope with whitespace-separated items, not with arbitrary concatenations. Mmm. OK. Thanks John. That answers a question I had on dates as dd/mm/yyyy. Worked with spaces, not without. In any case, the RFC 3066 language codes are an open set. You should either accept any arbitrary string of ASCII alphas, digits, and hyphen (you can rule out initial, final, and consecutive hyphens if you like), or else a fixed set of values that your application understands. Will do. Many thanks. regards DaveP. - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From veillard@redhat.com Tue Nov 25 16:04:41 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP94fST032150 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:04:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAP94NDl025279; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAP94NmS025277; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:04:41 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 08:13:46AM -0000, David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk wrote: > Bob, I'm being faced in two cases with an XSD | Relax NG as master problem. > I'm convinced its not a technical decision (almost certainly in one case) > but > more of a political one. A perception that the majority are using W3C XSD, > hence we should, or MS use it, it must be right. > > I recall James spoke at one time of the two schema's together, but I don't > > have a url. Well there is the relatively harsh (but fair at the time) comparison he posted on the ietf-xml-use mailing list http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-use/mail-archive/msg00217.html Though the XML Schemas implementation have improved since, still a lot of the argumentation still makes a lot of sense from a technical viewpoint IMHO. > Has anyone collated a comparison to help people choosing between > the two? What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using > relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? Since it's far far easier to validate the semantic of a Relax-NG Schemas it seems to me that doing the opposite way (i.e. having the Relax-NG master and relying on automatic generation for the XSD) is more likely to garantee the semantic of both schemas, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Nov 25 16:15:16 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAP9FCAS033778 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:15:14 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAP9EO3j007310 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:14:24 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAP9EOvG007309 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:14:24 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311250914.hAP9EOvG007309@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:14:24 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] line terminator in compact syntax X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Hi, do I understand it correctly that while #xA terminates a comment and is a whitespace in the compact syntax, #xD does not and is not? David Tolpin From David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Tue Nov 25 17:05:42 2003 Received: from maggotts.rnib.org.uk (maggotts.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPA5gRb040552 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:05:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pboroweb.rnib.org.uk (pboroweb.rnib.org.uk [194.128.16.17]) by maggotts.rnib.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAPA4v007480; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:05:03 GMT Received: by pboroweb.rnib.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:04:52 -0000 Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E200A@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> From: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk To: veillard@redhat.com, relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:04:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:05:43 -0000 Daniel said: Well there is the relatively harsh (but fair at the time) comparison he posted on the ietf-xml-use mailing list http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-use/mail-archive/msg00217.html thanks Daniel. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002Jun/0119.html also. Since it's far far easier to validate the semantic of a Relax-NG Schemas it seems to me that doing the opposite way (i.e. having the Relax-NG master and relying on automatic generation for the XSD) is more likely to garantee the semantic of both schemas, I'd agree. I'm less sure that I can persuade a bean counter who has heard of the words though :-) Remember that phrase, you never get the sack for buying big blue? regards DaveP - DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 25 17:51:57 2003 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hAPApu7c046302 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:51:57 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1069757514!2039529 X-StarScan-Version: 5.1.13; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 9510 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: from smtp-6.star.net.uk (212.125.75.75) by server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 18891 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-6.star.net.uk with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 10:51:54 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23873 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:51:47 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:38 GMT Message-Id: <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id KAA21006; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:38 GMT From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> (message from Daniel Veillard on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:04:23 -0500) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:51:58 -0000 Daniel Since it's far far easier to validate the semantic of a Relax-NG Schemas it seems to me that doing the opposite way (i.e. having the Relax-NG master and relying on automatic generation for the XSD) is more likely to garantee the semantic of both schemas, That's what we're doing in the OpenMath 2 specification (http://www.openmath.org/standard/om20) Writing the schema (in rnc) and deriving rng, xsd and dtd as needed. There is though a question that has come up with regards choosing a normative format. In practice the schema is authored in the compact syntax. I have been arguing that that is the one that should be normative (and in the body of the OpenMath specification) as it is a) readable and b) the actual source. However some have argued that the RNG XML syntax should be the normative version as it is more standard (in particular further down the ISO standardisation tracks). What is the current feeling amongst Relax MG practitioners, is it OK to use the compact syntax as a normative specification of a grammar? David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 19:25:54 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPCPsOL057545 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:25:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOcGO-0005Ot-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:25:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:25:52 -0500 To: David Carlisle Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031125122552.GB18123@mercury.ccil.org> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:25:54 -0000 David Carlisle scripsit: > What is the current feeling amongst Relax MG practitioners, is it OK to use > the compact syntax as a normative specification of a grammar? Absolutely. What is more, since you actually use it to write the grammar, it should be normative for that reason, so that if there is any (all too easy!) screwup in keeping the XML version up to date, it won't bite you in the ass. FWIW, the XHTML 2 draft makes the RNG, WXS, and DTD versions all normative, though currently only the RNG is supplied. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him. From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 19:28:41 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPCSeZR057846 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:28:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOcCk-0005KB-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0500 To: David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Message-ID: <20031125122206.GA18123@mercury.ccil.org> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:28:41 -0000 David.Pawson@rnib.org.uk scripsit: > What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using > relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? The chief objection is that Trang can't do that: it doesn't accept XML Schemas as input. -- If you understand, John Cowan things are just as they are; http://www.ccil.org/~cowan if you do not understand, http://www.reutershealth.com things are just as they are. jcowan@reutershealth.com From tbray@textuality.com Tue Nov 25 19:29:13 2003 Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPCTCQe057934 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:29:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63B01033B; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:25:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125090423.GC12979@redhat.com> <200311251049.KAA21006@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6C4BA470-1F42-11D8-BE4C-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:25:15 -0800 To: David Carlisle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:29:13 -0000 On Nov 25, 2003, at 2:49 AM, David Carlisle wrote: > What is the current feeling amongst Relax MG practitioners, is it OK > to use > the compact syntax as a normative specification of a grammar? For Atom, I think we're going to use RNC as the "official" schema; we may end up also having an official .xsd because the trang-generated version is kinda hideous. Nothing wrong with trang, just the usual XSD broken-ness. -Tim From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 25 19:39:50 2003 Received: from mail35.messagelabs.com (mail35.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.195]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with SMTP id hAPCdmgj059116 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:39:49 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com!1069763980!2045050 X-StarScan-Version: 5.1.13; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 10344 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: from smtp-3.star.net.uk (212.125.75.72) by server-11.tower-35.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 19712 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-3.star.net.uk with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 12:39:40 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26264 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:39:32 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:36:48 GMT Message-Id: <200311251236.MAA22114@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id MAA22114; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:36:48 GMT From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <20031125122206.GA18123@mercury.ccil.org> (message from John Cowan on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0500) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] "Converting DTDs (and DTD developers) to RELAX NG schemas" paper References: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F049E2004@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> <20031125122206.GA18123@mercury.ccil.org> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:39:50 -0000 >> What are the objections to having XSD as the master, and using >> relax ng as and when via trang? Is that viable? > >The chief objection is that Trang can't do that: it doesn't accept >XML Schemas as input. The other objection, even if trang (or some other system) could read xsd, is that if xsd is the master then can't express many of the constraints that you want to express. Especially (in my case) constraints on attributes where XSD is no better than DTD, just harder to read, but Relax NG can constrain attributes in pretty much the same way as elements. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Nov 25 22:49:13 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPFnC1V087355 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:49:13 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: k5xlBQyVW5TJCHR38+QcIQ 1069775346 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B081F442A8C for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:49:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <113E7B89-1DD4-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:49:17 -0000 Sorry to post this again, but I really need an answer to this question, and the documentation I've found isn't helping me (more a function of my limitations than that of the documentation I'm sure!). Anyone? On Nov 20, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >> What am I doing wrong?? > > If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the > start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content > with a new one. Thanks for this Eric. I was able to get it working ultimately. I'm now stuck with the same duplicate start problem in another circumstance. The mods schema has an extension element that allows one to embed content from other namespaced schema. I have create simple schema called bibio-notes, which I want to use to add marked up annotations to the record. I assumed the following would work, but I am getting the duplicate start error from nxml mode. The start pattern for mods is: start = ModsSchema. Here's my schema: =============================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } =============================== Once again: what am I missing? Also, do I need to do something special to get the namespace for biblio-notes attached to the extension element in mods for validation? In other words, a simple instance would look like: content wrapped in the foreign schema tags Bruce From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Tue Nov 25 23:11:26 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGBQKk091734 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:11:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOfmb-0004EE-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:11:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:11:14 -0500 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> References: <113E7B89-1DD4-11D8-869B-000A95B10832@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:11:26 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus scripsit: > Once again: what am I missing? Without all your schemas, there's no hope of figuring it out. -- John Cowan http://www.reutershealth.com "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless. For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him." From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Nov 25 23:22:19 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGMJOj093761 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:22:19 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: xru7dOQkm6/h+hq74QqSbg 1069777337 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B886343E433 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:22:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:22:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> Message-Id: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:22:20 -0000 On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 11:11 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Without all your schemas, there's no hope of figuring it out. Ok, I've placed them here: http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/biblio-notes.rnc http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods3.rnc The latter schema was converted from XML Schema* with the Sun conversion tool. I had to tweak the resulting RNG schema a bit to get it to work. Here's the current combined-schema-that-doesn't-work, which I am calling mods-bn.rnc: =============================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } =============================== Thanks, Bruce * Original schema is at http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-oct-9.xsd From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 25 23:29:02 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGT1gf094783 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:29:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6000BC52; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:28:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: "Bruce D'Arcus" In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069777739.1108.169.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:28:59 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:29:02 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 16:49, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > Sorry to post this again, but I really need an answer to this question, > and the documentation I've found isn't helping me (more a function of > my limitations than that of the documentation I'm sure!). Anyone? Yep. Sorry for the delay, but I am really overloaded... > > On Nov 20, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > > >> What am I doing wrong?? > > > > If you include the schema for docbook, you need to either redefine the > > start pattern defined in the schema for docbook or combine its content > > with a new one. > > Thanks for this Eric. I was able to get it working ultimately. > > I'm now stuck with the same duplicate start problem in another > circumstance. > > The mods schema has an extension element that allows one to embed > content from other namespaced schema. I have create simple schema > called bibio-notes, which I want to use to add marked up annotations to > the record. > > I assumed the following would work, but I am getting the duplicate > start error from nxml mode. The start pattern for mods is: > > start = ModsSchema. > > Here's my schema: > > =============================== > > include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } You have now a conflict between the start element redefined in your first include and a start element defined in your second include. How to solve this depends on your actual schemas and on what you're trying to achieve. I have tried to explain the different mechanisms in my book: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/RngBookBuildingBlocks.html but can't give any advise without have a better idea of what's in your schemas. Eric -- Did you know it? Python has now a Relax NG (partial) implementation. http://advogato.org/proj/xvif/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Tue Nov 25 23:36:08 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGa8EV095898 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:36:08 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: U+rSv0kXnzL/+ePCJTtCuw 1069778166 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C80443A66 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:36:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1069777739.1108.169.camel@delleric> Message-Id: <75BE99EC-1F65-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:36:08 -0000 On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > You have now a conflict between the start element redefined in your > first include and a start element defined in your second include. I had originally redefined the start pattern for biblio-notes as ModsSchema, but got the same error. > How to solve this depends on your actual schemas and on what you're > trying to achieve. See my other message for links to the schemas. > I have tried to explain the different mechanisms in my book. Your book has been really helpful to me; thanks for making it available! However, even after reading it, I can't quite wrap my head around this issue. Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Nov 25 23:37:36 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPGbTMQ096114 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:37:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BCBBC52; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:36:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: "Bruce D'Arcus" In-Reply-To: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> References: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:37:23 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:37:36 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 17:22, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/biblio-notes.rnc > http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods3.rnc > > > =============================== > > include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } Hmm.... >From what I understand, you want to have a start element equal to "ModsSchema". The simplest solution is to remove the definition of the start pattern in biblio-notes.rnc and just write: ============================================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } ============================================== If for any reason, you wanted to leave the definition of the start pattern in biblio-notes.rnc, you could replace this by: ============================================== include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { external "biblio-notes.rnc" }* } ============================================== Hope this helps. Eric -- Rendez vous a Paris pour le Forum XML. http://www.technoforum.fr/integ2003/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Wed Nov 26 00:02:49 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPH2mUr001152 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:02:49 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOgaP-0005yP-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:02:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:02:49 -0500 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:02:50 -0000 Bruce D'Arcus scripsit: > include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } Well, to begin with you are trying to override a rule named "extension", but there is no such rule in mods.rnc, so you have to refactor it so you have such a rule. While you're at it, how about removing all that "notAllowed | foo" cruft in favor of just "foo"? Your other problem is fundamental: you are importing the definition of start from two different places, and you can't override both of them at the same time. This is a deficiency in RNG: the obvious workaround is to remove the start definition from biblio-notes.rnc. (Committee members, perhaps there needs to be a way to delete a rule at include time?) > * Original schema is at > http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-oct-9.xsd This gets a 404. -- All Norstrilians knew what laughter was: John Cowan it was "pleasurable corrigible malfunction". http://www.reutershealth.com --Cordwainer Smith, _Norstrilia_ jcowan@reutershealth.com From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 00:12:59 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHCoF0002922 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:12:59 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: KPTStPAr3OBJHamsDP8Tjw 1069780368 Received: from fastmail.fm (darcusb.geo.muohio.edu [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF094444FE for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:12:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:12:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> Message-Id: <958A527C-1F6A-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:13:00 -0000 On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 12:02 PM, John Cowan wrote: > While you're at it, how about removing all that "notAllowed | foo" > cruft in favor of just "foo"? I'm happy to spend a bit of time cleaning this up, as I'd really like to have a RNG version of the schema available that others can work with. The Library of Congress, however, develops in XML Schema, and so the version I posted is (not very elegantly) machine converted. I didn't have the time (or skill) to rebuild it in Relax NG myself! What might the function of the ""notAllowed | foo' cruft"? And any other suggestions? >> * Original schema is at >> http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-oct-9.xsd > > This gets a 404. Seems they switched to a newer version without updating the link. Here's the correct url: http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-0-draft-nov-24.xsd Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 00:15:46 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHFb8d003349 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:15:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759B4BC52; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:15:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:15:32 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:15:46 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 18:02, John Cowan wrote: > > (Committee members, perhaps there needs to be a way to delete a rule at > include time?) I think that this is already possible. Consider: inc1.rnc +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ start = element foo{empty} +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ inc2.rnc +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ start = element bar{empty} +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you want to include inc1.rnc and keep only the definition of the start element in inc2.rnc, you can write: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ include "inc1.rnc" { start |= notAllowed } include "inc2.rnc" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Wed Nov 26 00:33:28 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHXSdS006103 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:33:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOh42-0006vF-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:33:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:33:26 -0500 To: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125173326.GA26214@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:33:31 -0000 Eric van der Vlist scripsit: > If you want to include inc1.rnc and keep only the definition of the > start element in inc2.rnc, you can write: > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > include "inc1.rnc" { > start |= notAllowed > } > include "inc2.rnc" > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Very clever. This should go in a FAQ somewhere. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves." --Murray Gell-Mann From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Nov 26 00:59:38 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPHxbB5010195 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:59:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D250F2FB820; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:59:10 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031125175743.025aa998@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:59:36 +0000 To: John Cowan , Eric van der Vlist From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas In-Reply-To: <20031125173326.GA26214@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20031125161111.GC10250@mercury.ccil.org> <8727E968-1F63-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <20031125170249.GE10250@mercury.ccil.org> <1069780532.1104.233.camel@delleric> <20031125173326.GA26214@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:59:39 -0000 At 17:33 25/11/2003, John Cowan wrote: >Very clever. This should go in a FAQ somewhere. I've started one. Mainly based around patterns.... I.e. Eric's book. http://www.dpawson.co.uk/relaxng/index.html Input...or explained questions, appreciated. I'll publish it more widely when there is more content. regards DaveP From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 01:02:40 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPI2eZI010997 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:02:40 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: g8VVNGk+WMSyWouhH2trKA 1069783358 Received: from fastmail.fm (unknown [134.53.57.141]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACF54443BC for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:02:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:02:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: "Bruce D'Arcus" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> Message-Id: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:02:40 -0000 OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options anywhere! I've commented out the start pattern for biblio-notes, and modified the mods schema to have the necessary named pattern for extension, which I've reposted here: http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods3.rnc Bruce On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 11:37 AM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: > The simplest solution is to remove the definition of the start pattern > in biblio-notes.rnc and just write: > > ============================================== > include "biblio-notes.rnc" > > include "mods.rnc" { > extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* > } > ============================================== From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Wed Nov 26 01:14:15 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54] (may be forged)) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPIEFYs012793 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:14:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942392A038A; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:13:24 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031125181231.02675220@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:13:48 +0000 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas In-Reply-To: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> References: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:14:16 -0000 At 18:02 25/11/2003, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without >complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options anywhere! I found a mouse-trap yesterday. If a DTD source has an undefined element, that element comes over into .rnc file such that nothing shows as valid. Another DTD weakness/too lax option perhaps? HTH DaveP. From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 01:26:06 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPIPqkF014447 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:25:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A91BC52 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:25:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:25:40 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:26:07 -0000 On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 19:02, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without > complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options > anywhere! In your schema, the element extension appears in: ModsType = attribute version { xsd:string "3.0" }?, attribute ID { xsd:ID }?, (titleInfo | name | typeOfResource | genre | originInfo | language2 | physicalDescription | abstract | tableOfContents | targetAudience | note | subject | classification | relatedItem | identifier | location | accessCondition | (notAllowed | element extension { mixed { element0+ } }) | recordInfo)+ What you want to redefine is in fact the content of the extension element to allow your biblio-notes element instead of "element0" which is a wildcard generated by the schema converter you've been using. If we look at your overall schema! include "biblio-notes.rnc" { start = ModsSchema } include "mods.rnc" { extension = element extension { biblio-notes }* } You can't redefine the named pattern "extension" since it doesn't exist in mods.rnc (BTW, it's strange that the RNG processor hasn't raised an error here). You could redefine "element0" but that would still give you a mixed content model for extension with one or more occurrences of biblio-notes. One option is to define an "extension-content" pattern: ============ ... ModsType = attribute version { xsd:string "3.0" }?, attribute ID { xsd:ID }?, (titleInfo | name | typeOfResource | genre | originInfo | language2 | physicalDescription | abstract | tableOfContents | targetAudience | note | subject | classification | relatedItem | identifier | location | accessCondition | element extension { extension-content } * | recordInfo)+ extension-content = mixed { element0+ } ... ============ and then your schema becomes: ============================================== include "biblio-notes.rnc" include "mods.rnc" { extension-content = biblio-notes } ============================================== Another option with the same mods.rnc and a biblio-notes.rnc where you've got a start pattern is simply: ============================================== include "mods.rnc" { extension-content = external "biblio-notes.rnc" } ============================================== Hope that helps. Eric -- Did you know it? Python has now a Relax NG (partial) implementation. http://advogato.org/proj/xvif/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Wed Nov 26 01:34:21 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPIYL8V015690 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:34:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AOi0y-0000Ut-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:34:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:34:20 -0500 To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Message-ID: <20031125183419.GD26214@mercury.ccil.org> References: <1069778243.1106.184.camel@delleric> <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <6.0.0.22.2.20031125181231.02675220@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031125181231.02675220@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:34:24 -0000 Dave Pawson scripsit: > At 18:02 25/11/2003, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > >OK, we're making progress. NXML mode will now load the schema without > >complaining. However, it will not give me any completion options anywhere! > > I found a mouse-trap yesterday. > > If a DTD source has an undefined element, > that element comes over into .rnc file such that > nothing shows as valid. Exactly right. If an undefined element A is an essential part (not optional, nor choice) of the content model of element B, then any use of element B is ipso facto invalid. -- BALIN FUNDINUL UZBAD KHAZADDUMU jcowan@reutershealth.com BALIN SON OF FUNDIN LORD OF KHAZAD-DUM http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Nov 26 03:37:36 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPKbUYL036320 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:37:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAPKac3j010882 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:36:38 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAPKacYt010881 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:36:38 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311252036.hAPKacYt010881@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:36:38 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] trang: translating comments between compact and xml X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:37:36 -0000 Hi, trang translates element ( a # case a | b # case b ) { empty } into a b moving the second comment past the end of the name class. I realize that translation of comments is not normative; however, since the comments are translated by trang, is there a list of patterns where comments do not stay in place during translation? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Nov 26 03:52:27 2003 Received: from tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.163]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAPKqQpw038452 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:52:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from scan2.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.162] helo=localhost) by tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOkAc-00066W-JR for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:26 +0000 Received: from rx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.161]) by localhost (scan2.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 23416-01 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wing1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.225]) by rx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOkAb-00066Q-92 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 Received: from httpd by wing1.herald.ox.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AOkAb-000730-00 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.411 (Entity 5.404) From: Sebastian Rahtz Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-Id: Subject: [relaxng-user] TEI relaxng schemas X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:52:27 -0000 Members of this list may be interested in http://www.tei-c.org/P5/, which contains material about a new RelaxNG version of the Text Encoding Initiative guidelines. This is pre-alpha stuff, not endorsed yet by the TEI technical council, but may amuse some. The TEI is authored in its own literate programming language (a superset of the normal TEI), which describes a fairly elaborate class system for TEI elements. The elements are described in TEI notation, with their body expressed in relax ng XML notation. This means that the documentation and schemas are all generated from a single master mixed-namespace XML document, all of which can be validated. The generated HTML documentation shows the relaxng fragments in compact notation, for readability. DTDs are generated from the master source, and XSD is generated (on a good day) from relaxng schemas. just thought you'd like to hear of another large project doing relaxng Sebastian Rahtz From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 07:53:15 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQ0r93E072495 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:53:15 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: a9OEPgLxMDDmoWKL47NsQQ 1069807981 Received: from [134.53.28.81] (u81.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.81]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337F7445171 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:53:00 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:53:33 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:53:17 -0000 OK, I finally got it to work correctly, more or less. Thanks all! Here's an example fragment created using nxml mode: Got it to work! I just have a couple of questions remaining. The first is about namespaces. In the biblio-notes schema, I have the following namespace definition: default namespace = "http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns" The most obvious question is whether this is the correct way to specify the namespace in this circumstance. Also, should I be requiring the namespace prefix here, when the namespace is defined on the extension element? In this example, if remove the namespace prefix from the declaration and the included elements, I get an "unknown element" error on the extension element. Finally, as I recall nxml mode normally automatically completes the namespace declaration. it does not do so in this circumstance. Is this likely a limitation of nxml, or a problem in my definition? Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 13:56:02 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQ6u16P018109 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:56:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3993EBC52 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:55:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:55:54 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:56:04 -0000 On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 01:53, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > OK, I finally got it to work correctly, more or less. Good! > Thanks all! > > Here's an example fragment created using nxml mode: > > > > > Got it to work! > > > > > I just have a couple of questions remaining. > > The first is about namespaces. In the biblio-notes schema, I have the > following namespace definition: > > default namespace = "http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns" > > The most obvious question is whether this is the correct way to specify > the namespace in this circumstance. Yes. > Also, should I be requiring the namespace prefix here, when the > namespace is defined on the extension element? The namespaces rec states that prefixes are just shortcuts assigned to namespaces identifiers and that their values are not significant. As a result, you can't require a namespace prefix with RELAX NG (nor with W3C XML Schema). To require a specific prefix, you'd need to use either DTDs or Schematron but, again, that would not be conform to the intention of namespaces. > In this example, if remove the namespace prefix from the declaration > and the included elements, I get an "unknown element" error on the > extension element. What do you mean? Per the namespaces spec, this is a different document that should be invalid: Got it to work! But this one is equivalent to your snippet and it should be valid: Got it to work! > Finally, as I recall nxml mode normally automatically completes the > namespace declaration. it does not do so in this circumstance. Is > this likely a limitation of nxml, or a problem in my definition? Your definition looks good. Eric -- Read me on XML.com. http://www.xml.com/pub/au/74 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Nov 26 15:56:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQ8uI0n033053 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:56:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAQ8tR3j014034 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:55:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAQ8tR1a014033 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:55:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311260855.hAQ8tR1a014033@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:55:27 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] 'any' documentation X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:56:23 -0000 The Compact Syntax Specification says that "Any ## comments must precede any annotation in square brackets." May please someone clarify what the phrase means? Does 'any' apply to the schema in whole or to each pattern? A valid and invalid example in respect to this rule would be helpful. I would also like to reiterate my previous question: do I understand it correctly that escaped linefeed (\x{a}) terminates a comment and is a whitespace, while escaped carriage return (\x{d}) does not and is not? David Tolpin From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Wed Nov 26 17:53:45 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQArj2R047574 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:53:45 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: MPewQVuQQD3HXF0juEIEoQ 1069844022 Received: from [134.53.28.91] (u91.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.91]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFC3446862 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:53:38 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:53:54 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:53:47 -0000 On Nov 26, 2003, at 1:55 AM, Eric van der Vlist wrote: >> In this example, if remove the namespace prefix from the declaration >> and the included elements, I get an "unknown element" error on the >> extension element. > > What do you mean? That nxml mode then says that the extension element is "unknown." Moving the declaration to the biblio-notes element solves that issue though. >> Finally, as I recall nxml mode normally automatically completes the >> namespace declaration. it does not do so in this circumstance. Is >> this likely a limitation of nxml, or a problem in my definition? > > Your definition looks good. OK thanks. Will look into it more. I'm now going through and cleaning up the mods schema. Can someone suggest how I might simplify the below? This is the auto-generated-from-the-XML-Schema stuff: anyType = mixed { (attribute * { text } | element1)* }, empty and: element0 = element * { mixed { (element0 | attribute * { text })* } } element1 = element * { mixed { (attribute * { text } | element1)* } } The patterns get used throughout like so: | element displayForm { anyType } I wonder if I can just eliminate those patterns and replace them with simply "text." My goal is a clean RNG schema, but also one fully compatible with the XML Schema, so I'm just being careful here. Bruce From vdv@dyomedea.com Wed Nov 26 18:13:24 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQBDLOL050185 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:13:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44D2BCA1 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:12:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] combining schemas From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: References: <8C59F38A-1F71-11D8-BDCA-000A959F0E52@fastmail.fm> <1069784740.1097.250.camel@delleric> <1069829754.1097.270.camel@delleric> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1069845199.1097.408.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:13:19 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:13:25 -0000 On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 11:53, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > I'm now going through and cleaning up the mods schema. Can someone > suggest how I might simplify the below? This is the > auto-generated-from-the-XML-Schema stuff: > > anyType = > mixed { > (attribute * { text } > | element1)* > }, > empty > > and: > > element0 = > element * { > mixed { > (element0 > | attribute * { text })* > } > } > > element1 = > element * { > mixed { > (attribute * { text } > | element1)* > } > } > > The patterns get used throughout like so: > > | element displayForm { anyType } > > I wonder if I can just eliminate those patterns and replace them with > simply "text." No, not really. They are meant to allow any element and text node in the extension element. If you want that the RNG schema keeps that feature when it's used standalone, you must keep such definitions. Replacing them by text would mean that valid documents per the WXS schema could be invalid per your RNG schema. Eric -- Did you know it? Python has now a Relax NG (partial) implementation. http://advogato.org/proj/xvif/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 27 05:14:28 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQMEOk9044339 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 05:14:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAQMDU3j017917 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:13:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAQMDTcu017916 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:13:29 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311262213.hAQMDTcu017916@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:13:29 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] repeated data X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:14:30 -0000 Hi, my impression is that element foo { "a"+ } is an invalid pattern. However, trang accepts it and converts into corresponding XML Syntax. Is the pattern valid? David Tolpin From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Thu Nov 27 06:13:21 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAQNDL4K052628 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:13:21 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AP8qM-0002dT-00; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:13:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:13:10 -0500 To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] repeated data Message-ID: <20031126231309.GA9692@mercury.ccil.org> References: <200311262213.hAQMDTcu017916@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311262213.hAQMDTcu017916@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:13:22 -0000 David Tolpin scripsit: > element foo { "a"+ } > > is an invalid pattern. However, trang accepts it and converts into > corresponding XML Syntax. It is indeed invalid. Trang is not guaranteed to catch errors in input, and when the output is xsd, it may generate erroneous output as well. It's a best-effort program. -- Only do what only you can do. John Cowan --Edsger W. Dijkstra, http://www.reutershealth.com deceased 6 August 2002 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Nov 27 07:52:14 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAR0qBYM064835 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:52:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAR0pG3j025812 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:51:16 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hAR0pGSO025811 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:51:16 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311270051.hAR0pGSO025811@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] repeated data In-Reply-To: <20031126231309.GA9692@mercury.ccil.org> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:51:16 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:52:17 -0000 > David Tolpin scripsit: > > > element foo { "a"+ } > > > > is an invalid pattern. However, trang accepts it and converts into > > corresponding XML Syntax. > > It is indeed invalid. Trang is not guaranteed to catch errors in input, and > when the output is xsd, it may generate erroneous output as well. > It's a best-effort program. Thank you, I realize it now that since grouping restrictions are specified for the simple form, and trang does not translate to the simple form. Interestingly, nXML does not check restrictions either, and successfully validates against this grammar (that is, it allows sequences of a, but not other strings). Why this restriction is imposed at all? David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Nov 28 20:59:50 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASDxkHa019110 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:59:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASDwe3j034610 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:58:40 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASDwdCH034609 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:58:39 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311281358.hASDwdCH034609@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:58:39 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] groupability X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:59:50 -0000 I am writing a Relax NG parser. I must resolve all references (ref,parentRef) before checking groupability restrictions, right? That is, I cannot do it in one pass and must carry information about the position of a pattern in the source code to the second pass? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 03:02:12 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASK283b063501 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASK113j035596 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:01:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASK10w5035595 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:01:00 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282001.hASK10w5035595@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:01:00 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] missing start element X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:02:13 -0000 Hi, why start = element foo {grammar{}} is illegal? It matches productions in the specification, and I cannot find where it is required that 'start' is required. David From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Nov 29 03:35:41 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASKZef0066953 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:35:41 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFA0BC8B for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:35:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200311282001.hASK10w5035595@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282001.hASK10w5035595@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1070051733.1096.3588.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:35:33 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:35:41 -0000 Hi, On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 21:01, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > why > > start = element foo {grammar{}} > > is illegal? It matches productions in the specification, and I cannot find > where it is required that 'start' is required. A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would be simplified as : start = element foo {} and that "element foo {}" is illegal. Eric -- Curious about Relax NG? My book in progress is waiting for your review! http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 03:55:09 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASKt6V7069457 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:55:08 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASKrx3j035873 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:53:59 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASKrx3g035872 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:53:59 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282053.hASKrx3g035872@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:53:59 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:55:10 -0000 > > A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would > be simplified as : > > start = element foo {} > > and that "element foo {}" is illegal. This is simply not that what is written in the specification. The specification says that 1) a grammar element can be empty. The grammar, both in EBNF and in RNG says so. 2) In the simplification rule for 'grammar', it says: "Next, move all define elements to be children of the top-level grammar element, replace each nested grammar element by the child of its start element and rename each parentRef element to ref." It does not say what to do with an empty grammar element at all. Besides, nXML validates against the grammar above as though element foo {grammar {}} is the same as element {empty}, while jing rejects the grammar. No behaviour is defined in the specification and either behaviour can be accepted as an extension of the currently specified behaviour. Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that grammar is start & (define|include|div)* instead of (start|define|include|div)* ? David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Nov 29 04:03:18 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASL3HVM070764 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:03:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFD3BC8B for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:02:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200311282053.hASKrx3g035872@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282053.hASKrx3g035872@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1070053396.1106.3620.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:03:17 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:03:18 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 21:53, David Tolpin wrote: > > > > A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would > > be simplified as : > > > > start = element foo {} > > > > and that "element foo {}" is illegal. > > This is simply not that what is written in the specification. The specification says > that > > 1) a grammar element can be empty. The grammar, both in EBNF and in RNG says so. > 2) In the simplification rule for 'grammar', it says: "Next, move all define > elements to be children of the top-level grammar element, replace each nested > grammar element by the child of its start element and rename each parentRef > element to ref." > > It does not say what to do with an empty grammar element at all. Well, then that's just my interpretation of "replace each nested grammar element by the child of its start element" to think that in that case this is just nothing! > Besides, nXML validates against the grammar above as though element foo {grammar {}} > is the same as element {empty}, while jing rejects the grammar. No behaviour > is defined in the specification and either behaviour can be accepted as an extension > of the currently specified behaviour. > > Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that > grammar is > > start & (define|include|div)* > > instead of > > (start|define|include|div)* No, because you can define a grammar without start pattern that you include in other grammars which have a start pattern. Eric -- Read me on XMLhack. http://xmlhack.com/author.php?id=8 Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 04:17:19 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASLHEat072390 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:17:17 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASLG63j036013 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:16:06 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASLG6jf036012 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:16:06 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282116.hASLG6jf036012@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element In-Reply-To: <1070053396.1106.3620.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:16:06 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:20 -0000 > > Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that > > grammar is > > > > start & (define|include|div)* > > > > instead of > > > > (start|define|include|div)* > > No, because you can define a grammar without start pattern that you > include in other grammars which have a start pattern. OK. So the only grammars which can omit start element are top-level ones? In which case it is not a pattern because it does not match? It makes things more clear, thank you. I would still prefer to have RELAX NG schema for RELAX NG specifying it. David Tolpin From vdv@dyomedea.com Sat Nov 29 04:27:38 2003 Received: from evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (dyomedea.net1.nerim.net [213.41.162.60]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASLRbD0073527 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:27:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by evlist.paris.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA7EBC89 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:27:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200311282116.hASLG6jf036012@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282116.hASLG6jf036012@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1070054855.1104.3654.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:27:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:27:38 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 22:16, David Tolpin wrote: > It makes things more clear, thank you. I would still prefer to have RELAX NG schema > for RELAX NG specifying it. This is a general problem with RELAX NG: most of the language restrictions can't be captured by the RNG schema for RNG. The reason is that most of the restrictions of RNG are expressed on the schema after simplification while the RNG schema for RNG describes the schema before simplification. OTH, I think that's this design decision is one of the reasons for the level of flexibility of RELAX NG and that's a fair enough price to pay! Eric -- Read me on Advogato. http://advogato.org/person/vdv/ Upcoming XML schema languages tutorials: - Philadelphia -full day- ( 7/12/2003) http://masl.to/?V28612FC5 - Santa Clara -half day- (15/03/2004) http://masl.to/?J24916E96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 04:43:59 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASLhtqt075239 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:43:57 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASLgl3j036172 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:42:47 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASLgluC036171 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:42:47 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282142.hASLgluC036171@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <1070054855.1104.3654.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:42:47 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:43:59 -0000 > This is a general problem with RELAX NG: most of the language > restrictions can't be captured by the RNG schema for RNG. This one easily can, by the way. RNG is context specific, and specifying that the 'grammar' element has different content models in different contexts is possible. On the other hand, if includeContent is different from grammarContent, then topLevelContent can be different too. It is easy and natural in BNF, RNG and plain text. I would be glad to see this part of the specification updated -- it would make my life easier. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 06:15:00 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASNEuE7085582 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 06:14:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASNDn3j038080 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:13:49 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASNDm5W038079 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:13:48 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282313.hASNDm5W038079@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:13:48 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] implicit grammar X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:15:01 -0000 Hi, What's the reason behind not allowing implicit grammars in included schemas? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Nov 29 03:53:12 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hASKr8G8069206 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:53:10 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hASKq23j035821 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:52:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hASKq2xh035820 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:52:02 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311282052.hASKq2xh035820@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start element In-Reply-To: <1070051733.1096.3588.camel@delleric> To: Eric van der Vlist Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:51:40 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: dvd@davidashen.net X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:06:24 +0700 Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:53:12 -0000 > > A reason (maybe not the only one) why this is illegal is that this would > be simplified as : > > start = element foo {} > > and that "element foo {}" is illegal. This is simply not that what is written in the specification. The specification says that 1) a grammar element can be empty. The grammar, both in EBNF and in RNG says so. 2) In the simplification rule for 'grammar', it says: "Next, move all define elements to be children of the top-level grammar element, replace each nested grammar element by the child of its start element and rename each parentRef element to ref." It does not say what to do with an empty grammar element at all. Besides, nXML validates against the grammar above as though element foo {grammar {}} is the same as element {empty}, while jing rejects the grammar. No behaviour is defined in the specification and either behaviour can be accepted as an extension of the currently specified behaviour. Which one is the correct one? Should the grammar for RNG be modified so that grammar is start & (define|include|div)* instead of (start|define|include|div)* ? David Tolpin From darolst@pantor.com Sun Nov 30 02:13:59 2003 Received: from mail.g.bonet.se (mail.g.bonet.se [212.181.52.4]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATJDqtk013835 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:13:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.g.bonet.se (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hATJD0XS052447 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:13:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from darolst@pantor.com) Message-ID: <3FC8EFEE.9030503@pantor.com> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:13:50 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt References: <200311282142.hASLgluC036171@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311282142.hASLgluC036171@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:14:00 -0000 Um, I think not. Simplification rule 4.18 clearly states "A grammar must have a start child element." This is after the previous simplification rules has been applied. More specifically "4.7. include element" is interesting in this situation. start = element foo { grammar { include "grammar-with-start.rnc" }} Provided that the included grammar does have a start pattern, this is a perfectly valid schema and this shows that you cannot require a start in the grammar before the simplification. Cheers, David David Tolpin wrote: >>This is a general problem with RELAX NG: most of the language >>restrictions can't be captured by the RNG schema for RNG. >> >> > >This one easily can, by the way. RNG is context specific, and specifying >that the 'grammar' element has different content models in different contexts >is possible. > >On the other hand, if includeContent is different from grammarContent, then >topLevelContent can be different too. It is easy and natural in BNF, RNG >and plain text. I would be glad to see this part of the specification updated -- >it would make my life easier. > >David Tolpin >_______________________________________________ >relaxng-user mailing list >relaxng-user@relaxng.org >http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > > From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 02:55:33 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATJtUkN018233 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:55:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATJsG3j044295 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:54:16 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATJsGuM044294 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:54:16 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311291954.hATJsGuM044294@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <3FC8EFEE.9030503@pantor.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:54:16 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:55:34 -0000 > Um, I think not. Simplification rule 4.18 clearly states "A grammar must > have a start child element." > This is after the previous simplification rules has been applied. More > specifically "4.7. include element" > is interesting in this situation. > > start = element foo { grammar { include "grammar-with-start.rnc" }} > > Provided that the included grammar does have a start pattern, > this is a perfectly valid schema and this shows that you cannot > require a start in the grammar before the simplification. David, you are right, thank you. Another question: why is, in the compact syntax, top-level '"grammar" "{" ... "}"' is optional for the main module but required for included and referenced modules? (That is, why jing and nXML both require it)? The spec says that it "must be a grammar". Why implicit grammar is not allowed? David From darolst@pantor.com Sun Nov 30 04:39:34 2003 Received: from mail.g.bonet.se (mail.g.bonet.se [212.181.52.4]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATLdWZW029350 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 04:39:34 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.g.bonet.se (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hATLccXS060093 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:38:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from darolst@pantor.com) Message-ID: <3FC91211.5010601@pantor.com> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:39:29 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt References: <200311291954.hATJsGuM044294@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311291954.hATJsGuM044294@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:39:35 -0000 It's not required for any top level grammars. The compact to XML syntax translation is done on a file per file basis. So the translator doesn't really have any idea of what is a main module or an included module. So each file has its own top level. Therefore, the following is perfectly valid: schema1.rnc: include "schema2.rnc" start = foo schema2.rnc: foo = element foo { text } Cheers, David David Tolpin wrote: > why is, in the compact syntax, top-level '"grammar" "{" ... "}"' is > optional for the main > >module but required for included and referenced modules? (That is, why jing and nXML >both require it)? The spec says that it "must be a grammar". > >Why implicit grammar is not allowed? > >David > > > From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 05:17:21 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATMHIY4033528 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:17:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATMG43j045248 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:16:04 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATMG181045247 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:16:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <3FC91211.5010601@pantor.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:16:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:17:22 -0000 > file has its own top level. Therefore, the following is > perfectly valid: > Hmm, indeed. I must have looked at the wrong place. I am sorry for the many questions. Another question: test.rnc start = foo foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} testi.rnc foo|empty nXML accepts it. jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. Does externalRef create a new scope? David From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 05:33:24 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATMXLSu035096 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:33:23 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATMW73j045579 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:32:07 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATMW7GC045578 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:32:07 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311292232.hATMW7GC045578@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt In-Reply-To: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:32:07 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:33:25 -0000 > > file has its own top level. Therefore, the following is > > perfectly valid: > > > > Hmm, indeed. I must have looked at the wrong place. I am sorry for the many > questions. > > Another question: > > test.rnc > > start = foo > foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} > > testi.rnc > > foo|empty > > nXML accepts it. jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. Does externalRef > create a new scope? Further on, if I translate the grammar above using trang into XML Syntax, the referenced file is translated into 'grammar' element, and the grammar is still invalid. If I remove the wrapping grammar element, then the grammar is valid. If I then translate the valid XML RNG schema into either XML or compact syntax using trang, I get invalid grammar. I'm lost. The question is not whether trang is perfect or not. The question is whether there is an implicit grammar in a file consisting of a single pattern. and if there is, why nXML and jing both complain when I try to include testi.rnc (include "testi.rnc"; either syntax error or 'not a grammar'). David From dvd@davidashen.net Sun Nov 30 05:42:44 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATMgfnM036076 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:42:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hATMfR3j045645 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:41:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hATMfRNP045644 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:41:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200311292241.hATMfRNP045644@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:41:27 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Difference between externalRef and include X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:42:46 -0000 The RELAX NG Specification says that the resource behind URI passed as argument to 'externalRef' must much the syntax for pattern, while one passed to 'include' must match the syntax for grammar. The Relax NG Compact Syntax says that both should reference a grammar in the compact syntax. The latter makes me think that a file is either sintactically valid for both referencing from externalRef and include or invalid for both contexts. Both Jing and nXML disagree with me. Further on, jing parses contents of an external file passed to externalRef as a grammar, but refuses to accept the same file if passed to include. David Tolpin From darolst@pantor.com Sun Nov 30 06:37:12 2003 Received: from mail.g.bonet.se (mail.g.bonet.se [212.181.52.4]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hATNbBkV041428 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:37:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from pantor.com (as6-5-7.k.s.bonet.se [217.215.95.162]) by mail.g.bonet.se (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hATNaHXS066222 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:36:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from darolst@pantor.com) Message-ID: <3FC92DA4.6050609@pantor.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:37:08 +0100 From: David Rosenborg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt References: <200311292232.hATMW7GC045578@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200311292232.hATMW7GC045578@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:37:12 -0000 Your example is correct, and should after transformation and simplification be isomorphic with: foo So any tool saying otherwise is wrong. Cheers, David David Tolpin wrote: >>Another question: >> >>test.rnc >> >>start = foo >>foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} >> >>testi.rnc >> >>foo|empty >> >>nXML accepts it. jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. Does externalRef >>create a new scope? >> >> > >Further on, > >if I translate the grammar above using trang into XML Syntax, the referenced file is translated >into 'grammar' element, and the grammar is still invalid. If I remove the wrapping grammar element, >then the grammar is valid. > >If I then translate the valid XML RNG schema into either XML or compact syntax using trang, >I get invalid grammar. > >I'm lost. The question is not whether trang is perfect or not. The question is whether there is >an implicit grammar in a file consisting of a single pattern. and if there is, why nXML and jing >both complain when I try to include testi.rnc (include "testi.rnc"; either syntax error or 'not >a grammar'). > >David >_______________________________________________ >relaxng-user mailing list >relaxng-user@relaxng.org >http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user > > From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 30 21:58:31 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUEwVux038520 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:58:31 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: IxTSgl9nKhyKvKw0oYwvJg 1070204304 Received: from [134.53.28.38] (u38.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.38]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAED451D7D for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:58:23 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:59:02 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Subject: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:58:31 -0000 I'm dealing with a DTD that uses character entities to represent typographic specs for bibliographies. I know the schema languages don't do entities, so how would one deal with this in relax ng? Use unicode numbers? The characters themselves? Put differently, is it a bad idea to develop a new DTD that relies on entities in this way, given the general shift away from DTDs in the XML world? This is intended to be an xml equivalent to bibtex style files, so if successful, a couple/few years from now there should be a lot of them available. Future proof-ness should be a goal, then. Here's a fragment of an instance based on the DTD: In Bruce From tbray@textuality.com Sun Nov 30 23:20:56 2003 Received: from mail.dev.antarcti.ca (gt.antarcti.ca [209.17.183.233]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUGKtOx047276 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:20:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (dev1.dev.antarcti.ca [10.1.1.8]) by mail.dev.antarcti.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C7910336; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:20:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:20:49 -0800 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:20:57 -0000 On Nov 30, 2003, at 6:59 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > I'm dealing with a DTD that uses character entities to represent > typographic specs for bibliographies. I know the schema languages > don't do entities, so how would one deal with this in relax ng? Use > unicode numbers? The characters themselves? You might find http://tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/09/27/UniEmacs and http://norman.walsh.name/threads/xmlunicode relevant, although they are quite Emacs-focused. -Tim From bdarcus@fastmail.fm Sun Nov 30 23:39:38 2003 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUGdbB4049316 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:39:37 +0700 (ICT) X-Sasl-enc: X1+4IWbeSBIZxoNSnWp/9Q 1070210375 Received: from [134.53.28.22] (u22.s28.muohio.edu [134.53.28.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836C5451EBF for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:39:34 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) In-Reply-To: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:40:14 -0500 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:39:38 -0000 On Nov 30, 2003, at 11:20 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > You might find > http://tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/09/27/UniEmacs > and > http://norman.walsh.name/threads/xmlunicode > > relevant, although they are quite Emacs-focused. Hi Tim, Yeah, I've read this stuff before, and I get the sort of abstract argument. Since I'm on Mac OS X and use emacs, I'm happy to just use unicode characters directly and be done with it actually. However, I'm trying to understand how to deal with this specific example, where a) the spec needs to deal with extended characters, often (at least currently) in attributes and b) the person developing the DTD (Peter Flynn) uses Linux for the most part, is happy with DTDs and their entities, and loathe to learn something like RNG unless he must. I'm also worried about the portability of the instances that results from the spec. It seems to me it is in fact a bad idea to base anything new on entities, but I'm not sure if this is the correct conclusion, nor exactly why. At the same time, I gather that using raw unicode characters will cause problems for many people, at least currently. Bruce From veillard@redhat.com Sun Nov 30 23:53:36 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hAUGraHX050640 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:53:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAUGrGDl015485; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:53:16 -0500 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAUGrGjM015483; Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:53:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:53:16 -0500 From: Daniel Veillard To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] entities and characters? Message-ID: <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:53:36 -0000 On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > However, I'm trying to understand how to deal with this specific > example, where a) the spec needs to deal with extended characters, > often (at least currently) in attributes and b) the person developing > the DTD (Peter Flynn) uses Linux for the most part, is happy with DTDs > and their entities, and loathe to learn something like RNG unless he > must. I'm also worried about the portability of the instances that > results from the spec. > > It seems to me it is in fact a bad idea to base anything new on > entities, but I'm not sure if this is the correct conclusion, nor > exactly why. At the same time, I gather that using raw unicode > characters will cause problems for many people, at least currently. Hum, it sounds to me that using entities in attributes is more likely to give troubles (SAX "eats" them) when editing than using Unicode characters. Of course it all depends on the tools used but I would expect recent editors to be UTF-8 ready on Linux (if not they need to be chased down and fixed or dropped). Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es Tue Dec 2 00:42:13 2003 Received: from unica.udc.es (unica.udc.es [193.147.41.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB1HgB5B038817 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 00:42:12 +0700 (ICT) Received: from unica.udc.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB1Hg3ON013291 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:42:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from necora.cdf.udc.es (necora.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.147.41.4]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB1Hg3Cl013286 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:42:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from eps213 (eps213.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.144.52.213]) by necora.cdf.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.11.3) with SMTP id hB1Hg2IW023237 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:42:03 -0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Castro?= To: References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:43:12 +0100 Organization: UDC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id hB1HgB5B038817 Subject: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:42:13 -0000 Hello, I'm writing a modular schema in compact syntax, so I have driver.rnc module1.rnc module2.rnc ... I'm having problems when I translate my schema (file "driver.rnc") into XML syntax with trang (version 20030619). 1) The point between the name and the extension is missing in the generated module files: driver.rng module1rng <== should be "module1.rng" module2rng <== should be "module2.rng" ... 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns ... However, after the translation into XML syntax the resulting RNG files (driver and modules) have all grammars, elements and attributes defined in the default namespace. It seems that trang ignores the namespace definition in my RNC driver file. I tried with a driver file like this: default namespace = "http://mynamespace" include "module1.rnc" include "module2.rnc" ... And it happens the same. Any workarround for this? Thanks in advance for your time, Manuel From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Dec 2 04:46:28 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB1LkOTQ080693 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:46:26 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1Lit3j054142; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:44:55 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB1LirKp054141; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:44:53 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312012144.hB1LirKp054141@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems In-Reply-To: <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Castro?= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:44:53 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:46:29 -0000 > 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: > > namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" > include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns > include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns > ... > > However, after the translation into XML syntax the resulting RNG files (driver and modules) have all grammars, elements and attributes defined in the default namespace. It seems that trang ignores the namespace definition in my RNC driver file. > > I tried with a driver file like this: > > default namespace = "http://mynamespace" > include "module1.rnc" > include "module2.rnc" > ... > > And it happens the same. Any workarround for this? Looking at the trang's source, there must be something that triggers addition of a namespace. The following should work: namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" bar = element myns:bar {empty} include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns David From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Dec 4 19:57:38 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB4CvZf7019280 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:57:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB4Ctp3j096550 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:55:51 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB4CtpUU096549 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:55:51 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312041255.hB4CtpUU096549@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:55:51 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] content-type for notAllowed X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:57:38 -0000 Hello, I am trying to follow the specification. is the following valid element foo {notAllowed} ? I am asking because content-type is not specified for notAllowed, but the restriction is that "All patterns occurring as the content of an element pattern must have a content-type." So, notAllowed should have a content-type? David From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:06:59 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB516wwQ029969 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:06:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB516nAB097871; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:06:50 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] content-type for notAllowed From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200312041255.hB4CtpUU096549@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200312041255.hB4CtpUU096549@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070582294.1776.29.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:01:52 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relax-ng@lists.oasis-open.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:07:00 -0000 On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 19:55, David Tolpin wrote: > Hello, > > I am trying to follow the specification. > > is the following valid > > element foo {notAllowed} > > ? Definitely. It's explicitly allowed by the grammar in Section 5. > I am asking because content-type is not specified for notAllowed, > but the restriction is that "All patterns occurring as the content of an > element pattern must have a content-type." > > So, notAllowed should have a content-type? It looks like there is a bug in 7.2 here. However, I don't think the fix is to give notAllowed a content-type, because in the simplified form notAllowed only appears as the content of the element by itself. Rather I think the fix is to say that a pattern occurring as the content of an element must either be notAllowed or must have a content type. This parallels the production for top in Section 5. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:07:56 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB517tqp030092 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB517riI098073; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:07:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems From: James Clark To: Manuel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gonz=E1lez?= Castro In-Reply-To: <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <1070583508.1776.33.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:02:50 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:07:56 -0000 On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 00:43, Manuel González Castro wrote: > Hello, > > I'm writing a modular schema in compact syntax, so I have > > driver.rnc > module1.rnc > module2.rnc > ... > > I'm having problems when I translate my schema (file "driver.rnc") into XML syntax with trang (version 20030619). > > 1) The point between the name and the extension is missing in the generated module files: > > driver.rng > module1rng <== should be "module1.rng" > module2rng <== should be "module2.rng" > ... I can't reproduce this. If you send a proper bug report, I'll look at it further. > 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes in the default namespace, and the driver file includes them in a namespace with the "inherit" keyword. It looks like: > > namespace myns = "http://mynamespace" > include "module1.rnc" inherit = myns > include "module2.rnc" inherit = myns > ... Trang RNG output has some bugs in handling inherit on include. They should be fixed in the next version. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:09:03 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB5193xd030236 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:09:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB518uf6098244; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:08:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Difference between externalRef and include From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311292241.hATMfRNP045644@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311292241.hATMfRNP045644@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070584256.1776.46.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:03:53 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RELAX NG List , "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:09:04 -0000 On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 05:41, David Tolpin wrote: > The RELAX NG Specification says that the resource behind URI passed as argument to 'externalRef' > must much the syntax for pattern, while one passed to 'include' must match the syntax for grammar. This is correct. It wouldn't be coherent for include to reference a pattern. > The Relax NG Compact Syntax says that both should reference a grammar in the compact syntax. Section 2 in the Compact Syntax spec includes the sentence "The value of an anyURILiteral specified with include or external is a URI reference to a grammar in the compact syntax." The point this sentence is trying to make is that the thing referenced by include or external is in the compact syntax rather that the XML syntax. (At one stage trang's predecessor translated each file individually and left file names unaltered.) It's not trying to say that what's referenced is always a grammar rather than a pattern. I can see now that the sentence is at best misleading and needs an errata. Note that in the Compact Syntax spec, Appendix A contains the full, rigorous specification and the other sections are an informal summary. When in doubt, consult Appendix A. > Further on, jing parses contents of an external file passed to externalRef as a grammar, > but refuses to accept the same file if passed to include. A file referenced by externalRef is parsed as a pattern, which will be unacceptable to include, unless it is also a grammar. Are you saying Jing is inconsistent with the RELAX NG spec? James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:10:06 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51A5AH030372 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:10:05 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB519xZR098456; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:10:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] missing start elementt From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311292216.hATMG181045247@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070585867.1776.71.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:04:56 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:10:06 -0000 On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 05:16, David Tolpin wrote: > Another question: > > test.rnc > > start = foo > foo= element foo {external "testi.rnc"} > > testi.rnc > > foo|empty This is fine. > jing says that the reference is to undefined pattern. The jing I have here accepts it. I can't remember whether this was something I fixed since the last public release, and I can't conveniently check this right now. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:36:34 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51aXdx034022 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:36:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51aQRd004201; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:36:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] implicit grammar From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311282313.hASNDm5W038079@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311282313.hASNDm5W038079@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070587878.1776.77.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:31:18 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:36:35 -0000 On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 06:13, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > What's the reason behind not allowing implicit grammars in included schemas? They are allowed. Each file in a compact syntax schema is translated individually to XML syntax. Each file is translated the same way whether its the top level file, referenced in include or referenced in external. The compact syntax schema is correct if the requirements of Appendix A of the Compact Syntax spec are met and if the resulting XML syntax schema is correct. James From jjc@jclark.com Fri Dec 5 08:43:17 2003 Received: from jclark.com (jclark.com [128.121.116.162]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51hGdp034811 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:43:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from [10.0.2.32] (115.suba418.attnet.ne.jp [202.33.78.115]) by jclark.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB51hA5T005536; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:43:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] groupability From: James Clark To: David Tolpin In-Reply-To: <200311281358.hASDwdCH034609@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200311281358.hASDwdCH034609@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070588283.1776.84.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:38:03 +0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "relaxng-user@relaxng.org" X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 01:43:19 -0000 On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 20:58, David Tolpin wrote: > I must resolve all references (ref,parentRef) before checking groupability > restrictions, right? Yes. The groupability restrictions are expressed on simple form. > That is, I cannot do it in one pass and must carry information about the position > of a pattern in the source code to the second pass? If you want to report position information for violations of groupability restrictions, then I think the schema parser has to create structures with position information. James From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Dec 5 16:46:30 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB59kQeU095381 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:46:28 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB59ib3j002753 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:37 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id hB59iap4002752 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:36 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200312050944.hB59iap4002752@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Difference between externalRef and include In-Reply-To: <1070584256.1776.46.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:44:36 +0400 (AMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:46:31 -0000 > > Further on, jing parses contents of an external file passed to externalRef as a grammar, > > but refuses to accept the same file if passed to include. > > A file referenced by externalRef is parsed as a pattern, which will be > unacceptable to include, unless it is also a grammar. Are you saying > Jing is inconsistent with the RELAX NG spec? James, thank you for the explanation. Jing is conformant and consistent, I was looking at the testing results at 3 o'clock in the night. I am terribly sorry. David From iinmgc00@ucv.udc.es Fri Dec 5 17:17:37 2003 Received: from unica.udc.es (unica.udc.es [193.147.41.3]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.10/8.11.2) with ESMTP id hB5AHa4B099146 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:17:36 +0700 (ICT) Received: from unica.udc.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB5AHU1o005544 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:17:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from necora.cdf.udc.es (necora.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.147.41.4]) by unica.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hB5AHT04005536 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:17:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from eps213 (eps213.eps.cdf.udc.es [193.144.52.213]) by necora.cdf.udc.es (8.12.8p1/8.11.3) with SMTP id hB5AHRIW020944 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:17:28 -0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <006401c3bb19$29bca030$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Manuel_Gonz=C3=A1lez_Castro?= To: References: <28C62D22-2351-11D8-A001-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> <20031130165316.GJ23634@redhat.com> <003301c3b832$9aa53620$d53490c1@eps.cdf.udc.es> <1070583508.1776.33.camel@rambutan.bkk.thaiopensource.com> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] schema in multiple files: trang problems Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:18:39 +0100 Organization: UDC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by thaiopensource.com id hB5AHa4B099146 X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:17:38 -0000 Hello, James Clark wrote: >> On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 00:43, Manuel González Castro wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm writing a modular schema in compact syntax, so I have >>> >>> driver.rnc >>> module1.rnc >>> module2.rnc >>> ... >>> >>> I'm having problems when I translate my schema (file "driver.rnc") >>> into XML syntax with trang (version 20030619). >>> >>> 1) The point between the name and the extension is missing in the >>> generated module files: >>> >>> driver.rng >>> module1rng <== should be "module1.rng" >>> module2rng <== should be "module2.rng" >>> ... >> >> I can't reproduce this. If you send a proper bug report, I'll look >> at >> it further. Sorry: I was testing an xml editor with a trang plugin, the trang.jar file that comes with it is 20030619 but for some extrange reason calling trang from the editor IDE causes the file extension problem. Calling trang from the command line works perfect, the bug is in the editor. >>> 2) In my schema design, all modules define elements and attributes >>> in the default namespace, and the dr